A Dance with Dragons discussion

After waiting for 6 years for this, it was largely a disappointment. I've read the series with high hopes, but will follow it no more.

:/
But.. why?; It's not like there is nothing else to read in the world.

I know is hard, but now we have to take in consideration that this is not an underground Fantastic Story, GoT is playing in the Big Leagues now, and Im actually glad that GRR Martin its taking his time finishing the book, cause that means that he is doing the best he can to provide a decent continuation to the series.

And its actually rare to see such things in Series which gained massive Fame. They usually try to exploit it and realease new material permantently.

Cheer up, Imagine we are living in the age of Tolkien waiting for his Book to be released.
This series, like Tolkien's, will be a hallmark for ages to come, and you will proudly tell your Grandchildren how you waited patiently for the latests Martin's books (?

Welcome to ASOIAF, where you could conceivably earn a university degree between each book release.

At least there's the side material and prequels to pass the time, if you haven't already looked into them. :)

My disappointment started with book 4, when he decided to not write anything about Daenerys, which I was looking forward to. So to wait another 6 years, only to see the plot move inches instead of miles was a great disappointment. We know why now. George was engaged with HBO for the TV Series, and had little time for the fans that were actually reading the books. And if you look at some of the other comments, my opinion is shared.

Unless (or even if) you are a writer yourself I think you should abstain from criticizing someone for not writing fast enough. Especially something as complex as ASOIAF. I too was a bit disappointed in DwD, mostly for the young Aerys or whatever that seemed an unnecessary addition this late in the game. Still, I won't judge the series until it is concluded.

I think it's unfair to criticize the author for the amount of time it takes to write a novel. Especially considering the amount of time and effort GRR Martin is putting into his pieces to make them as enthralling as they are.

You are not the author. You are the reader. You aren't the one stressing to get your piece of work befitting your exact standards. You aren't the one working around multiple other deadlines, a career, and a personal life. You are the reader. The end game.

So the customer of this product, is not permitted an input on the products value? I have supported George RR through buying his books, one in paperback, the others in hard cover. I spent my money, and invested my time to read all of the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series. I am not allowed an opinion? I rated the first 3 books the 5 stars they deserved. The fourth 4. But after listening to George complain about his lack of production, and observing all the conventions he attended, while admitting he can't write when he is on the road. Then I have come of the opinion, he is basking in the adoration, and not focusing on the story line. So I have said I am quits with this series. Hell, Robert Jordan managed to finish the last 3 volumes of the Wheel of Time series in the same time frame, and he died in 2007!

Oh, come on Philip;
Nobody is taking away your freedom to formulate an opinion.

We are just telling you that, its not a big deal.
Every author has his/her methods, that worked for him/her, why must be hurry them?,

And if he is taking a bit of time for himself, its not wrong either, he deserve it.

Just grab some other books and read them, eventually The Winds of Winter will come.

The reader is the customer, yes. But you already read what you payed for. You have the right to be disappointed if you didn't like it, but no reader has the right to criticize how fast he writes. It's not like you payed him for The Winds of Winter in advance and now you want to see what you payed for.

I would also like that he finishes the series already, but I prefer that he writes carefully and thoughtfully, rather than sloppy and in a hurry. I know I'll get his best effort, regardless if I like the result or not.

Laura wrote: "The reader is the customer, yes. But you already read what you payed for. You have the right to be disappointed if you didn't like it, but no reader has the right to criticize how fast he writes. I..."

Nice thinking Laura..
I agree with you, It is a long but hopefuly worth wait :)
But may I ask why you rated "aDoD" with only 3 stars? O.o

Ezequiel wrote: "But may I ask why you rated "aDoD" with only 3 stars? O.o "

I don't know what to say... Because I didn't like it enough to give it 4 or 5, but enough not to give it 1 or 2?

I enjoyed the first three books way more, the story flowed better. In ADwD I felt a sense of stagnation, which could be intentional on GRRM's part or not. Not that I expected it to be as action-packed as ASoS, but there's a feeling of hopeless aftermath that I cannot define.

For example, on one side, I felt that the story could have moved forward if we had been spared of the endless reiterations of personal mantras and detailed descriptions of the most basic actions. On the other hand, those things help the immersion in the mood. Even though I was gritting my teeth with every "where do whores go", it really puts you into the darkness of Tyrion's pointless fixation. Same goes with Jaime and Dany.

At some moments, I had the feeling that the story was being intentionally "stretched" (and ill-minded me was whispering to sell more books?), although after I finished it, I understood that this stagnation was pretty much the feeling that corresponded to the stories. That's where the characters were in ADwD, really. They were all stuck in the aftermath of the War of the Five Kings, not being able to do anything but count their losses and watch the destruction, even the ones in power.

There is an overwhelmingly heavy atmosphere that is effectively transmitted to the reader by the annoyance of the flow, the endless "words are wind" and so on. So, in a way, the dullness and monotony of the mantras do have a purpose. But that doesn't mean I consider this to be the best masterpiece ever and deserving of five stars.

So, three stars for me.

Philip wrote: "So the customer of this product, is not permitted an input on the products value? I have supported George RR through buying his books, one in paperback, the others in hard cover. I spent my money..."

That's your right. But Martin also has a right to enjoy his newfound fame after being a struggling writer for over two decades. He's old. Let him have his fun. He's doing great work for under appreciated authors with his anthologies. Maybe you should read those.

I can understand Phillip's thoughts. It is frustrating. If it isn't for others, that's fine as well. But thinking no one should be is simply a bit of a stretch. At this point I barely remember the previous book and have little desire to read it again to refresh especially since I didn't find it to be that interesting.

So yes, I definitely understand and joked with another author at a book signing about it. I simply don't stress it much because the last two books weren't that good to me. When it comes, it comes at this point. And a customer can criticize if he wants. It's merely his own feelings whether someone agrees with them or not.

Philip wrote: "So the customer of this product, is not permitted an input on the products value? I have supported George RR through buying his books, one in paperback, the others in hard cover. I spent my money..."

What you said. Yes. Life is too short and there are other books. All books are subject to literary criticism. GRRM isn't more special. Sit down, tie everything together, and finish the gosh darn story.

George RR Martin is one of the reasons why I don't tend to pick up series at the beginning anymore - I Amazon wishlist the beginning of series and pick them up when the series has been finished. This does remove the frustration aspect and removes the need to re-read books when the next in the series comes out.

However, authors like Brandon Sanderson, Robin Hobb and Joe Abercrombie are very metronomic, so the wait time is nowhere near as hard.

Ultimately, a book is done when it is done, but putting out excuses like George RR Martin has done does make the reader a little annoyed. His books are starting to smack of a lack of inspiration, though.

I can never quite understand why people try to talk somebody out of their opinion once it is stated.

Phillip, I'm sorry you're disappointed. I hope the next series you read is more satisfying.

Julia wrote: "I can never quite understand why people try to talk somebody out of their opinion once it is stated."

Some people would call that "giving another opinion". To express disagreement would be part of that giving an opinion thing.

This is what happens in most series. I have been a fan of fantasy and science fiction books for a long time, and I've read a few mystery series as well. With the rare exceptions of (IMHO), the LOTR and Narnia books, as a series gets larger, the books lose the crispness of writing and the urgency, for lack of a better word, that the earlier books had. The Harry Dresden series, the Honor Harrington series, the Kinsey Milhone alphabet mystery series, the Wheel of Time, and the Change/Emberverse series by S.M. Sterling have all suffered from "series-itis". Even the Dune books after God-Emperor of Dune became wordy and difficult to follow.

I just look forward to actually finishing the series, when George finally gets there.

Hurry the hell up, George. That's all I have to say!

Philip wrote: "So the customer of this product, is not permitted an input on the products value? I have supported George RR through buying his books, one in paperback, the others in hard cover. I spent my money..."

Wow, that post made me feel really uncomfortable. I think my understanding of the relationship between an author, their book and the book's readership is completely different from yours. You seem to think that your buying a book makes you a co-owner of the story and a boss to its author. That's not how it works. The author writes the story he/she has in mind and shares it with other people, the readership. Readers can have all sorts of opinions about it, but treating an author as if he owes you because you read his book is just wrong IMO. Readers should NEVER try to force the hand of the author. It's their story, not the reader's. If you don't like a series, it's perfectly fine to stop reading it and to talk about why you don't like it, but acting like buying a book gives you the right to boss the author around and criticize him for making public appearances... Just no.

The first few months after reading A Dance with Dragons I used to check every day if there were news about when the new book would be released. It started to get really annoying, so I decided to go into a new adventure while I waited for this one to continue, so I started to read The Dark Tower, and it has been a blessing. I am loving the series by Mr. King (which is already finished) and it helped me to forget about the wait.

So my advice is, go find yourself another adventure and let the man do his job. More than a book to read, I want Martin to do the best he can and put a lot of thought on whatever is going to happen, because I want this shit to be greatness! We should actually be glad Martin isn't letting (until now) the network push him to write the books so they can have material for the series. If he starts to rush this thing I am sure the story won't reach its full potential.

I just hope I live long enough to see the ending. Think its bad for you. I read Game of Thrones in 98. My son is now an adult, I've divorced, remarried, had another child who is now in 3rd grade, been through several jobs, not to mention, read several trilogies and series, that both started and ended, while still waiting for this one. No wonder the seasons last so long in this world. Time passes at a much slower rate there.

Sorry.. but people defending him are just ridiculous. People have a right to be frustrated. His business is writing. It is the only reason anyone gives a shit about him. If that is your job.. then people have a right to be annoyed when you spend more time at conventions or dicking around with a crappy show than writing. Especially when you freely admit you suck at writing when not home.

He is an artist yes. But people bought the books after Game of Thrones with an expectation of closure at some point. He entered into a business relationship with them, agreeing that for their donation to his art, that they would receive a complete story. We have not gotten that. Not even close. And the most recent books.. were barely deserving of the title 'filler'. It is even more frustrating when they freely acknowledge that the show will most likely finish before the books, and spoil the ending. That is screwed up, and another slap in the face of the people that actually got him to where he is today by reading the first book.

As Kidgreg said... some of us have been reading it since book 1 came out.. 18+ years ago. We aren't bandwagon readers that started reading the stories recently because of a shitty show that shouldn't have even been made until the series was finished.

It is really simple. He has been dicking around for the last 14+ years since book 3 was released. To be blunt I don't think he has a clue what to do with it now. It has grown beyond his skills.

At this point, reading ASoIaF, is like watching a soap opera about some guy so into playing Everquest (to use something appropriate to when the first book came out) that they don't realize their girlfriend is leaving them. A game of thrones was cool. the second and third were okay. The 4th and 5th books were absolute garbage. And the plot has gone no where.

We still have no idea about a billion things, and he keeps adding more crap. Oh and he is sooo edgy. he kills people. Like authors haven't been doing that for ages. Melanie Rawn was far better at it and a better author in general. Ned was surprising. Nothing else has been.

People complained about Jordan.. but his books had at most like a 2.5 years wait in between each book, usually less.. the LONGEST gap.. is when he freaking died, and turned over the book to Sanderson.. and Sanderson got the next book out before 4 years passed. Think about that for a second. Jordan, and Sanderson after Jordan died, wrote a total of 14 books.. in just shy of 23 years. Martin? has written 5 books in 18+ years.

Hell, Sanderson, while finishing WoT, wrote a dozen of his own books. That dude can go write a 1000 page book while taking a dump, and it is about 324235236523626236236x better than anything Martin could dream of writing. He is insane. I don't expect everyone to be like him.. but it would be nice to have some middle ground with Martin.

I hesitate to even call him an author anymore. He is a hobbyist that got sidetracked by fame, and can't even finish what made him famous. An author writes. He doesn't. I don't think he shouldn't enjoy the money and fame... but there is a point where you need to sit your ass down and write.. and acting like people don't have a right to be frustrated.. is again.. beyond ridiculous.

Here is an article that quotes him talking about when/where/how he can write... If he knows those are his limitations... maaaaaayyyybe he should hire some other people to handle the other crap and go lock himself up in his home and do his job. Just saying.

http://www.avclub.com/article/george-...

TLDR: Martin is no longer worth reading. There are so many better authors out there that actually spend their time writing. The majority of people that defend Martin are new comers to the series, most likely brought to the books by the shitty show, and because of that, don't understand the frustration with Martin's inability to finish his story.

Shawn wrote: "Sorry.. but people defending him are just ridiculous. People have a right to be frustrated. His business is writing. It is the only reason anyone gives a shit about him. If that is your job.. t..."

Little harsher than I would have put it but valid points. I used to be as pissed about it myself. Now, I do watch the show and I will read the next book, when/if it ever comes out, but the passion I once had for this series is long gone. Whether it's Martin's work-ethic or he has painted himself into a corner, but I think he's pretty much alienated his original fan base. He probably doesn't care though cause of all the new fans.

He does seem pretty arrogant, like a lifelong nerd who now thinks that everyone else thinks he is cool. And I understand how pissy he gets when it's said he will suffer Jordon's fate, but callus or not, it's a valid point. I mean just look at the guy. He's got to have major health problems -which also may be effecting his ability to write, probably feels like crap all the time.

All that aside, Martin has revolutionized the fantasy genre which did need some shaking up. Look how popular fantasy is now.

I guess if an author is going to be unsympathetic to his/her fans' frustrations that his/her choice. In the long run, it's his own legacy. ASoIaF will either be remembered as keystone turning point in fantasy literature or a failure.

I would just like to know what HBO will do when they run out of books.

Shawn wrote: "Sorry.. but people defending him are just ridiculous. People have a right to be frustrated. His business is writing. It is the only reason anyone gives a shit about him. If that is your job.. t..."
See, this is exactly the attitude I was talking about in my previous post. His business is writing, yes, but he's been writing books other than ASOIAF as well.

"He entered into a business relationship with them, agreeing that for their donation to his art, that they would receive a complete story." --> No. You're buying part of a story. The money for one book does not buy you the next two.

"It is even more frustrating when they freely acknowledge that the show will most likely finish before the books, and spoil the ending. That is screwed up, and another slap in the face of the people that actually got him to where he is today by reading the first book." --> That's not Martin's screw-up, it's HBO's. It was clear from season one that the show aired much faster than GRRM can write, and it's HBO's "fault" that GRRM is now famous and tours the world instead of locking himself up at home.

"A game of thrones was cool. the second and third were okay. The 4th and 5th books were absolute garbage. And the plot has gone no where." --> If you hate everything after AFFC so much, why don't you just chuck out the books and stop caring? It would save you a lot of frustration. Also, how should "other authors write faster" affect Martin's writing speed? First, you can't turn a donkey into a racing horse by screaming for it to go faster. Second, you just can't put a deadline on writing a good story, and I happen to love where the different plots are going. Also take into account that his books have been getting longer - can you really expect this man to finish a book of 1000+ pages in the same timespan it took him to write one less than half as long?

"I hesitate to even call him an author anymore. He is a hobbyist that got sidetracked by fame, and can't even finish what made him famous." --> Again, if you think he sucks this badly and half of the story so far has been too shitty to be enjoyable, what keeps you from turning away and no longer giving a damn?

"The majority of people that defend Martin are new comers to the series, most likely brought to the books by the shitty show, and because of that, don't understand the frustration with Martin's inability to finish his story." --> Your frustration is getting in the way of your reasoning. Maybe you should do what the majority of readers actually do - check for an update about TWOW every once in a while and enjoy other books in the meantime. I, for one, have better things to do than piss on a writer because he's not finishing his story fast enough. It will be done when it's done, rushing him will not make the story better. If anything, it'll do the contrary.

@ Kidgreg: I'm wondering if the seasons that run ahead of the books will be as popular as the ones aired until now. A lot of people I know will stop watching when the series gets ahead of the book because they don't want the story to be spoiled. The seasons will probably keep coming regardless, but Martin has only given the producers a VERY rough outline of how everything will end, so the producers will probably deviate from what Martin is writing a lot to flesh out the clues they got.

actually got him to where he is today by reading the first book." --> That's not Martin's screw-up, it's HBO's. It was clear from season one that the show aired much faster than GRRM can write, and it's HBO's "fault" that GRRM is now famous and tours the world instead of locking himself up at home.
"

Actually Caroline, that's not so. I remember when I was anxiously waiting for Storm of Swords and everytime I checked for an update, Martin was going to Conventions all over the world. And he had just started getting into the role playing game for it.
Hey I get it that he want's to enjoy life and all. Can't say I'd be different, but a lot of authors write every day. Martin has stated that's not how he works. That's his business. But my observation is that most artist, writers and musicians, acknowledge that their fans are what allows them to do do what they do and they are appreciative of that.
If Martin doesn't feel that way, so be it, but you reap what you sow. I for one would be a lot more forgiving if he would just say "Hey guys. I appreciate your passion for my work. But its not going as fast as I like, but I working on it." I can't say I've ever heard him once thank his fans. Not saying he hasn't but I've never seen it.

Kidgreg wrote: "actually got him to where he is today by reading the first book." --> That's not Martin's screw-up, it's HBO's. It was clear from season one that the show aired much faster than GRRM can write, and..."

I can see how that would be frustrating indeed. I'm not really one who reads/watches interviews with writers often, so I don't know if he has ever thanked his fans for their support. It's true that some writers pump out a new book every few months, but if GRRM doesn't work that way, it's just no use screaming at him for it. The way I see it is that yes, it's his job, but it has to be enjoyable for him too if his work is to be any good. Putting him under too much pressure will make the quality of his writing deteriorate. It's like a painter who takes his time painting a masterpiece exactly as he pictured it, then suddenly has lots of fans, and is then forced to crank out a painting every week to meet the demand. Never mind that it takes time to order thoughts, get inspiration and find the perfect wording for every scene. I get the feeling that some people think GRRM just needs to get the book out before rabid fans start throwing bricks through his windows.

I guess the TL;DR is that I would rather wait for Martin to deliver the best possible story at a pace he is comfortable with than rush him to deliver something sub par. There are enough other good novels out there to keep me busy until TWOW is finished.

Kidgreg:

I refused to watch the show. I won't support Martin in any other way until he finishes the books. And I wouldn't say he revolutionized fantasy. Hollywood did. By making big blockbuster movies of Tolkien. It is the only reason they even bothered with Martin. It is one of the few book series that is magic-lite enough to play out as a soap opera on TV. It fit their formula for TV. Lots of random stupid 'ooohhh shit!' moments, with little depth. And while yes, it is good that it got people reading.. the same thing can be said for the hunger games or divergent, or any of the other books made into movies. I would say Twilight has had a bigger impact. Which is really just sad.

Caroline:

If you are talking about the supposed editing for compilations? He isn't writing those. And he most likely isn't doing all the editing. He sticks his name on those books and gets a cut of the profits. It is a really old game in publishing. And it isn't special. Even more so if it distracts him from writing asoiaf, the ONE thing that makes anyone give a rats ass about him. His wildcard series isn't even mostly his work.

If I am buying a book in a series.. you better bet your ass that I am expecting an END to the series unless it is a stand alone book. If we are talking a Xanth novel from piers anthony.. where each book is its own complete story basically, even if set within the overall xanth world.. fine. I would agree. But that is FAR from the case with Martin. Don't be silly. These authors that start writing epic fantasy series that span not just trilogies (man I miss the days of trilogies!!!!) but 7+ books... are entering an agreement with their readers that they will finish the damn thing! Jordan understood that. He wrote. He wrote even as he was DYING. and he made damn sure that there was someone that could finish it after he passed. That is a good author.

How is it HBOs fault?!?!?! LOL He is the WRITER. He can say.. sorry guys. fuck off. I gotta go write.. you know.. do the thing that pays the bills and makes all this possible. He can do that. He chooses not to. He doesn't need to go to the conventions. He doesn't need to do all the interviews. He doesn't need to do any of it. The only thing he needs to do for his job.. is write. It is really simple. Don't blame HBO or his fans or anything else. There are plenty of other authors that just sit down and write.. if he can't tell people no.. sorry.. I gotta write.. bugger off with the rest of that crap till I am done.. they aren't the problem. He is.

And yes, I can expect him to finish his books faster. He used to. The second and third book came out within 4 years. Then it slowed to not even a snail's pace. It is very very clear when he started slowing down. He started going to more conventions and then he got the HBO deal.. and his writing has slowed to a halt. If he sucks at writing anywhere but home... maybe he should spend more time at home. And then if the story takes longer.. so be it. But at least then he isn't clearly not writing. That is what is frustrating.

I have turned away. lol. I am still just annoyed with the time invested. I definitely won't be getting the next book in another 2-4 years when it is released. (it has already been almost 4 years since this shitty book was released). I might pick it up on sale after checking reviews to see if anything actually happens this time. But that doesn't mean I don't have the right to be frustrated that he strung me along for 18+ years and still hasn't moved the plot at all from where it was 15 years ago.

And you are hilarious. Because for 15 years... I have done as you said. Read other things, found better authors and stories, let him do his thing.. hope it is good whenever he gets it done.. and the last two books have been GARBAGE. So clearly letting him do his thing isn't producing good books. So maybe a different approach will work better. :) Or, maybe he will just die, and then someone competent can finish the series, or since he has said he doesn't want anyone else to finish it.. it will just be something I can write off as unfinished and let it go. That works too.

Maybe after you have been waiting 15+ years for a decent book in the series you will understand. It is easy if you were able to read right through to book 5. They don't seem as shitty if you didn't have to wait 10+ years for them I have heard.

@ Shawn: Of course you can expect an end to the series. Its name is "A Dream of Spring". When will it be released? Probably not before five years after TWOW. Again, I don't care about the wait. You know how many years passed between book 4 and 6 of Earth's Children? Twenty-one. I have the series. I read book 1-4 when I was a child, read 5 when it came out, got 6 when it came out nine years after 5, and it's now sitting patiently on my shelf waiting for me to finish some other novels and then re-start Earth's Children. If the book turns out to be bad, so be it, there will be other books to enjoy. I really don't get the frustration. Martin intends to end the series. Wait for him to do his job, or if the prospect frustrates you too much, get busy with other things.

"There are plenty of other writers that blah" - yes, but none of them are Martin. If they finish their books faster, that's fantastic. But they do not set the standard for every other writer out there.

How is it HBO's fault? Because all of those series newbs you were just complaining about are clamoring for GRRM to finish because they want the books to be done before the series runs out of material. Without the series, it would just be the fans from the beginning who are losing patience, which would be a much smaller group pressuring Martin. I wouldn't consider you one of those fans, for that matter - I don't think anyone who calls the latter half of a series shit really has any business yelling for the writer to hurry up and write a book he's basically already admitted he won't read until years after its release.

I understand the frustration of long-time fans who actually appreciate the books and want to know what happens next. I don't share it, but I understand. But people who shit on a series because they don't like half of the books and think the writer is too slow would be better off just letting go and finding something else. No one forced you to sit on the edge of your seat for 18+ years. It could've been just four if you'd abandoned the books when you started disliking them.

Caroline wrote: "@ Shawn: Of course you can expect an end to the series. Its name is "A Dream of Spring". When will it be released? Probably not before five years after TWOW. Again, I don't care about the wait. You..."

Just an FYI- I wouldn't bank on A Dream of Spring being the ending. Back when Game of Thrones (the book) was first released. It was going to be a trilogy, 4 books at the most, which changed to 5...

Waiting for books aside, I just never got much a feeling from Martin that he gives a damn about his fans or that he ever really did. I remember a bookshop owner telling me, a long time ago, -somewhere around the time of Clash of Kings- that he'd met Martin and he came across as pretty arrogant even back then.
To be fair, I know its not my place to judge, and beyond that I never met the guy. But he does come across that way. Maybe he's just gotten defensive or maybe he's a introvert.

I'm just all about keeping it real. If Martin would just say hey I'm having some problems wrapping this thing up but I'll do my best to do right by everyone. Heck even if he got a co-writer... but then again, like I said before I'm at the point where if he doesn't finish it, it won't break my heart. At one time I could not get enough of ASoFaI, but those flames died down years ago.

Shawn wrote: "Kidgreg:

I refused to watch the show. I won't support Martin in any other way until he finishes the books. And I wouldn't say he revolutionized fantasy. Hollywood did. By making big blockbuste..."

I got to give credit where its due. There was definitely a turn for the better in the fantasy genre after A Game of Thrones book came out and started getting notice. I think he was instrumental in the popularity of the sub genre that is now called grimdark. Sure there were guys writing gritty realistic fantasy, like Glen Cook but they never managed to hit it big like Martin did. It was like Martin took Jordon's formula for epic, and made it realistic and intriguing. Heck, before Martin most every blurb on a fantasy book cover referenced Tolkien, now they reference Martin in that same way.

A Dream of Spring is its current, in progress, not even dreamed of actually being written, title in progress.

Earth's Children is different I would argue. Each book was part of a series, but was also written like most authors used to write, with complete story arcs within a single book. It didn't feel anywhere near the same. And while we wanted more of their story, if she had never written another book.. it wouldn't have ruined the entire thing. If Martin were to never release another book... the series would hit a brick wall, and it wouldn't just be disappointing, it would make the 5 books he has written pointless to read, because they all depend upon future books to really be satisfying.

It is nice that he intends to end the series. He has just so far proven to not be very good at fulfilling that promise. He has said multiple times that he can't write anywhere but home.. and then lets himself get distracted and pulled out of his home. There is nothing there to inspire confidence.

The last 2 books do nothing to help either since they just introduce NEW material (like a new character that is introduced and only exists for a hundred pages or so, just so Martin can be edgy and kill him off) or draw out the tedium even more with chapter long descriptions of every single thing they eat, and do little or nothing to wrap up anything. He has also said he doesn't want anyone else to finish his story, and yet he is 66 years old, in horrible shape, and people die all the time. Forgive me for thinking that if this series is his contribution to the world (and let's be honest.. it will be the only thing he is remembered for, and if he doesn't finish, it will be that lack of finishing that people will remember most)... that maybe he should put more effort into it.

You have no idea how thankful I am that the other authors aren't Martin. lol. And once martin finishes, either by completing the story, or by dying, he will fade away, because more than anything the only reason people care about him now is because he is like Scheherazade from One Thousand and One Nights... stringing us along with half a story until the next dawn. And who knows.. maybe that is his plan, and we are all getting trolled. I could at least respect that.

Umm.. the people from the show aren't helping. Again, they haven't been waiting that long, so it isn't a big deal for them yet, and they get the majority of their story fix from the show. Which has already stated that they know the ending and that it will end in a timely manner regardless of what Martin does with the books. So for them, it really isn't as big of a deal. The story will be complete for them (because at least the show's writers know how to do their freaking job.)

See your biggest problem Caroline, is that you seem to think that because we are frustrated with his slow pace, and the quality of what he has released recently, that we do nothing but 'sit on the edge of our seats' for 18+ years. We are readers, we read lots of other things. That doesn't mean we can't have opinions about one of the authors we follow. If we are following them, it means at some point we did enjoy what they wrote, and we keep hoping, that somehow he will find his way back to doing what we enjoyed to begin with... writing good books.

Kidgreg:

I agree. Martin has always had an odd relationship with fans. But meh. I don't care if he tells us all to go to hell, if he would just spend more time writing.

He definitely has added to the genre, but I don't think it has gotten better because of him. There have been so many better authors. He only really blew up when he got the TV Show, and then it just made GrimDark and fantasy-lite more pop culture. And that only happened because it was fantasy-lite, and fit extremely well into the soap opera formula. So if your definition of improving is to bring more exposure to GrimDark, then sure I can agree with that.

I agree. Martin has always had an odd relationship with fans. But meh. I don't care if he tells us all to go to hell, if he would just spend more time writing.

He definitely has added to the genre, but I don't think it has gotten better because of him. There have been so many better authors. He only really blew up when he got the TV Show, and then it just made GrimDark and fantasy-lite more pop culture. And that only happened because it was fantasy-lite, and fit extremely well into the soap opera formula. So if your definition of improving is to bring more exposure to GrimDark, then sure I can agree with that. "

Good point, I wouldn't care either if he was writing.

Hey one other thing you that Martin can get credit for; I think a lot of the newer authors better understand the frustration of not putting out series books in a timely manner. Most my current favorites, Lawrence, Abercrombie, Polansky,etc.. are putting out quality material yearly, sometime bi-yearly. :)

There is that! lol. Okay.. I can definitely give him credit for showing other authors what not to do if you want to keep your fans interested. Thanks for giving me a new perspective ;) lol

Wow, that was some extensive reading. But, alas, quantity and speed do not equal quality. I personally prefer to wait. I have plenty of other books to read and tons of work to entertain me in the meantime.

I couldn't care less what other authors do, how they address (or not) their fans, their personalities, etc., because it's not their stories that I'm addressing. When I buy a book, I pay for the content of that book. I don't pay for potential future books, I don't pay for cool personality of the author. I pay to read the content of the book that I am buying and nothing else. My personal expectations are no concern of anyone else but me.

Yes, the author who writes a series knows that fans will expect the follow-up, and they're counting on it, in fact. Still, he is under no obligation to provide it in the time span that the fans want. He is not paid to do that. In fact, he is not paid to even write this follow-up.

If you are frustrated because he doesn't write faster, I totally understand, but to say that it's his obligation to hurry is simply not true. You wish he hurried? Sure, many of us do. But he has no obligation to.

If you feel that the last two books were crap, then why exactly are you so frustrated that he's not writing faster? Why do you care how that story will end, if you don't like that story anymore?

Last, to say, as the OP expressed, that what's wrong with the story is that it presented fantasy elements, is plain illogical, when you buy and read books from a fantasy series. That was my point. This is not being ridiculous (as Shawn seems to think), it is being logical.

I think I am done with this series.

I think it's rediculous that it takes this long for a winds of winter. I have to sit here and wait 4 years for a new book while the author does every single convention, tv appearance, and pretty much everything other than writing the book.

Look I am not saying that someone needs to stand over him with a shotgun and force him to write but this is getting ridiculous. I know he takes his time with the novels and that each is a labor of love, but it should not take this long. If he wrote 1 page per day since a dance with dragons, the winds of winter would be 1460 pages right now.

It's not just the wait but also the fact that the show will eventually surpass the books and blow the ending of the whole thing anyways. On top of that I feel that he killed off to many important characters and most of the remaining characters are characters that I have little to no emotional attachment to.

Laura wrote: "Wow, that was some extensive reading. But, alas, quantity and speed do not equal quality. I personally prefer to wait. I have plenty of other books to read and tons of work to entertain me in the m..."

I can agree with that to a point but if an author isn't going to finish a series I wish he would let the reader know up front. I mean you buy a book I think you should be able to assume it will be completed in a normal lifetime.

Laura:

quantity and speed might not equal quality for Martin. But that isn't true for a lot of other authors. And that is nice that you don't mind a wait. Nothing wrong with that. I don't mind a wait either, when it is reasonable, and I know that the work is being done.

I am addressing all the authors I read. And Martin is just one of them. Using others as comparison is a means of explaining why I feel the frustration I do. Comparisons are good. They qualify and explain expectations. They also show that I am being FAR from unfair to Martin by expecting him to actually work on his books. And you are pretty silly, coming online, into a thread where the OP's topic is "A disappointing long wait" and expect people to not be talking about how they are disappointed with the quality of Martin's work, especially in regards to how long it took him to make. (especially since according to you... quality only comes with time... which for a lot of people -- including yourself since you gave it a 3.. is clearly not the case for Martin.)

Actually he is paid. He got an advance from his publisher. And it was probably pretty significant. And they only gave it to him because they know the fans want the next book. And you keep getting bogged down in this idea of a timeframe.. no one has said he should have the next book out in XYZ day/hours/minutes. We have said we would like him to be actually working on it.. instead of partying and going to conventions and working on stupid tv shows. Especially since he has admitted multiple times that he can't write anywhere but in his house. Not on a plane, not in a hotel, not while on the road. Only in his home...

Wow.. I swear you didn't even read some of the other comments. Just because the last two books were crap, doesn't mean we stop hoping that he will get back to the story and write something worth reading. It is a series, quality changes, especially in the middle. And we again, see that the reason for the decline in quality is that he is distracted from his real job. writing.

Your last paragraph made no sense.

Michael:

Totally agree.

Kidgreg:

Exactly. If an author starts writing an epic fantasy series like this.. they are under an obligation to finish it, or like Jordan, make sure that they have enough notes and outlines done that they can pass it to someone who can. Especially if they are as old and unhealthy as Martin is.

My biggest gripe is that older series.. were far less.. codependent upon future novels. It would suck if more didn't come out.. because you wanted more in that world and to see what happened next.. but if you never got one.. it wouldn't make the earlier stories pointless to read. If Martin never writes the ending... it really would make all the time spent reading this series to be a complete waste.

Shawn wrote:My biggest gripe is that older series.. were far less.. codependent upon future novels. It would suck if more didn't come out.. because you wanted more in that world and to see what happened next.. but if you never got one.. it wouldn't make the earlier stories pointless to read. If Martin never writes the ending... it really would make all the time spent reading this series to be a complete waste.
"

we can thank/hate Jordon for that.

Yeah. Jordan definitely seems to have been one of the first big successes with it. But, to his credit, he at least had a backup plan to prevent us from being left hanging.

Shawn wrote: "And you are pretty silly"
Oh, so now silly on top of ridiculous? You sure love ad hominem. Can't you defend your idea better than insulting the one who disagrees?

Shawn wrote: "coming online, into a thread where the OP's topic is "A disappointing long wait" and expect people to not be talking about how they are disappointed with the quality of Martin's work"
However, if you had read what I wrote, you would have seen "If you are frustrated because he doesn't write faster, I totally understand". I fully disagreed with the OP when he complained about the presence of fantasy elements in a fantasy series. If my sentence doesn't make sense to you, I don't think I can explain it better. Read previous comments, I guess. Or just don't and insult me again, you seem to feel more comfortable with that.

And also:
Shawn wrote: "Just because the last two books were crap, doesn't mean we stop hoping that he will get back to the story and write something worth reading."

You are willing to keep buying books from an author whose last two you didn't like, and you call me silly.

The OP is original post for me. What he says later you should quote specifically if you want me to be sure to understand what you are referencing. His original post says nothing about fantasy elements. Hence the confusion. You quote things all the time, yet didn't there.

"And you are pretty silly, coming online, into a thread where the OP's topic is "A disappointing long wait" and expect people to not be talking about how they are disappointed with the quality of Martin's work, especially in regards to how long it took him to make."

There, I quoted the entire thing for you, since you want to cry over part of what I said. I stand by calling you silly in the context of the entire sentence I wrote. Take it as you want though.

Reading comprehension is useful. I have said repeatedly I like his other work, and keep hoping for him to return to it. Just because I am not a fan of the most recent books, doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the three that set the series in motion. Also, as I said before, he is far from the only author I enjoy reading, so while I can hope he writes something decent, the only time I really think about it is when I am bored at work and browsing discussions on goodreads.

Wow things are getting pretty heated here... Personally I think the story is unraveling and GRRM is having a hell of a time reigning it in. All I hope is that he doesn't start killing characters just for convenience.

Frank wrote: "Wow things are getting pretty heated here... Personally I think the story is unraveling and GRRM is having a hell of a time reigning it in. All I hope is that he doesn't start killing characters ju..."

I think that is part of it, the other might be work ethic.

I think Laura is confusing the original post in this thread with the OP in a similar thread with a similar title:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

It's an understandable mistake.

Personally, I fully admit to being a Johnny-Come-Lately to the series. I think I started reading the series after season 2 of the television show. I really have enjoyed all the books, though I could have given FfC A 3* rating. I do think if I had to wait as long as the rest of you, I would be more annoyed. FfC and DwD are all build up with little to no release. I finished DwD a little over a year ago, and I'm so ready for the next one. But my hopes arent as dashed because I've only been waiting a year.

That said, the next book really needs to have some big moves. I'm hoping for another SoS-like volume and then in a couple years a fitting closing novel. I truly hope he wraps it up in 7 and not 8.

Maybe.. though I wouldn't say it is that understandable lol.

and Bud.. if you are ready for another book after just a year.. it is going to be a long wait for you :( They have already confirmed that book 6 won't be out in 2015 (mind you it is feb 1st lol) and assuming it comes out in 2016 (which I wouldn't hold my breath over) You can expect another 5+ years before the final book.. IF it is the final book.. which again.. I wouldn't make any bets on.

And nothing bad about coming to the books from the show. People reading more is the only thing I respect about the show.

Nathan wrote: "I think Laura is confusing the original post in this thread with the OP in a similar thread with a similar title:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

It's an understandable..."

You're right. I was confused with that thread, where the OP complained about both things at the same time. thanks, Nathan!

I still don't support calling someone names, just because they disagree with you. I guess I would have responded to Shawn on account of that anyway, I just would have stayed more in topic, hehe.

If it's logical to expect people complaining about the quality of GRRM's work in a topic about "a disappointing long wait", it is also pretty logical to expect people disagreeing with you in an open forum, where matters are freely discussed. Sadly enough, it is also expectable that certain people will insult instead of arguing respectfully. Happens everywhere!