EVERYONE Has Read This but Me - The Catch-Up Book Club discussion

Befor I close and before I return to the writing I cited above there is this:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...
Reading group: Bogged down on Swann's Way?
As well as being famously long, Proust is also often thought of as boring. Is this true, and will we get through this first volume?

So far the Guardian could be writing directly from my brain.

In my edition The Linda Davis Penguin Classics and the Moncrieff copy, in alternating sections I am about 1/4 done. So I am already looking at which translation for Book 2 -I am going with
https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Young-G...
Expensive but on sale used at Abe if only slightly less it is awkwardly annotated, I like annotation and:
https://www.readingproust.com/shadow.htm
(Same writer as the last post )
Make the case for the Yale -James Grieve translation seems to be the one favored throughout.

Normally I am weak on the subject of translations, but Moncrieff comes across as maybe the wrong temperament for the job.

I realized I had an e version of the book and was going to compare, but it’s Moncreiffs, and I’m reading the revised edition so it would not be helpful. I’m going to stick with those, because I’ve had this box set forever I’ll be darned to have looked at it for so many years and then not read it.

At this point I say I’d like to read it again down the line, a good excuse to buckle down on French studies and maybe read it as written?

I can say I still don’t find it boring, but I’m only 1/6 of the way in the book.

As a reminder, Monday’s discussion goes to page 139 and ends with “... I dare say a stockbroker.” I hope this works out if others are reading different editions?

Maybe the lack of comment is because folks are enjoying nice weather.
I am, for the moment about a week plus ahead. More exactly a few pages into section 2, Swan In Love. One reason why my pace may slow is that I am going to hold off on reading the Moncrieff translation, and use that time to start something else.

I will have a number of questions likely next week. I think Proust is trying to say something beyond the words on the page, some more profound, some profane. I am hoping someone will be better able to parse out what is maybe being implied.

Today starts our discussion of Swann's Way, to page 139 (page break, next section starts: “While I was reading in the garden...”)

(next weeks discussion will be Swann's Way, to page 224 (to the paragraph beginning: “It is perhaps from another impression which I received at Montjouvain...”)

Phrodrick, I will make some comments later, but I know for myself to this point in the reading, I'm not finding a lot that's wholly profound yet. But maybe as more unfolds it will be revealed? Unless too, I'm missing the complexities, which is entirely possible. I've not done any critical thinking on novels since I was in school, only until being active on Goodreads again have I been re-initiated into the world of thinking about a book more than just getting to the end. So I feel sometimes I struggle beyond the obvious.

I'm curious though how others feel on this. I know sometimes it can take a bit to get into a book, the writing style, the thought processes, etc., and perhaps that is also a consideration?

In most book I can grab on to something and from that hold catch out at least a few of the deeper concepts. Usually I find I am about one or two shy of what the more astute readers synthesize.

In stream of Conscious, and esp this one, I feel more like I am in a flow of thoughts and things come and go faster than I can make them register.

My initial thoughts on first starting this section was thinking that it might be hard to comment due to the nature of the subject, and sort of wondered if every week was going to be the same...LOL I did have some thoughts however.

One can really get a sense of things that are important to Proust, in his life and his recollections, such as Francoise, the steeple, his aunt. I like his ability to really get carried away in a thought, a memory; such as getting directions and seeing a landmark and it brings him back to some place in his past and he just stays there marinating in the memories, having forgotten the present.
One of the few complains I have about this book so far, is the need for zero distractions. Even a breeze blowing a random hair around sends me to read a section 3 or 4 times to get the depth of it.

One thing I do really like, as Phrodrick mentioned, it’s a book about nothing, but so far Proust can take the mundane and make it compelling. There is no real action, a bit of drama, it doesn’t seem to be going anywhere, yet I do want to read on. I especially enjoyed the commentary of the steeple and how he brought it to life.

I do appreciate how Proust can be a little devil at times. Luring his mother to give him a kiss goodnight, weaseling his way into his Uncle’s to see who might be there. I did rather feel bad for Marcel after the fallout with his uncle. He’s quite enamored with the stage and actors and even at a young age seems more artistic than the rest of his family, and I quite think he would have liked in future to have the acquaintance of some of his uncles friends, but - it is not meant to be. In his excitement he does the one thing he shouldn’t, although he did justify it to himself and assumed an outcome, however incorrect.

I really liked Proust’s telling of how the “lady in pink” met Marcel’s father and turned the encounter into an embellished jewel. In one instance Marcel knows his father enough to know what she’s saying is rubbish, but he can see the charm in her that she turns the story and paints such a good light of him. A bit in contrast to later when Marcel spills the beans on his meeting. So are the recollections he has, say of his aunt, Francoise really spot on, or as in the instance of what he thought his Uncle would think which was wholly wrong, maybe a fabrication?

The section with Bergotte was interesting to me. Is he inferring that Bergotte really influenced Proust and informed his work, or if it was already in his DNA and that’s why he was so drawn to Bergotte? I can’t say that Proust really goes off on a tangent, as he’s not really anywhere to begin with, just remembering. Marcel makes reference to many real-life writers and actors, so I’m curious why the strong characterization of Bergotte, who is fictional?

And, am I naive in now wondering if this is a Remembrance of Things Past or a maybe a more fictionalized account, interspersed with reality? Although most history is really objective and accountable to memory, thoughts and feelings at the time...is it more memoir or fiction?

Wow, Brenda, you brought up some really great points. I believe that it's a 'more' fictionalised account of those memories, that in fact when you remember you are painting more into it, different inflections etc.

I found this section harder to concentrate to be honest. I still feel compelled to continue but I can't see where he's going... Why all those details over nothing? I wonder if it adds up to something.

I keep thinking it could have been called Remberances of Snobberies Past, or of Snubs Past, but so far Swan in Love has a little more than just who is supposed to tip their hat to whom.

Betsy - I feel the same in a way... IS it going anywhere ??? But I’ve wanted to read this for 20+ years, it’s treasured by many...so I’m trying to push those thoughts away and just read.

Phrodrick - do you think it may be the time period? I’ve been reading Emma by Austen and she comes off as a terrible snob, but it seems quite dictated depending on your social order, who you can socialize with, etc.

With that, could it be satirical in a way? Is his way of saying nothing and in the simple telling of some things that happened, maybe he is opening it up to the reader to question these things?

He himself doesn’t seem quite so as others of his relations. His uncle certainly isn’t. :)))

Brenda wrote: "Phrodrick - do you think it may be the time period? I’ve been reading Emma by Austen and she comes off as a terrible snob, but it seems quite dictated depending on your social order, who you can so..."

Brenda,
I know you ask the question of me, but so far yours is a better answer than any I might make.

Marcel tastes the famous Tea Soaked Madeleine

image:

Not sure if anyone is still reading.
I am around the 100 page count down in my copy (440 odd pages plus foot notes)

This week and next week I think we are to be finishing Cambrey.
The Good news is that Swann In Love actually tells a story making it easier , for me , to read.
I think we have Intro to Marcel the Child, His quirky family and the neighborhood. Then with Swann in Love we get something closer to regular story telling. So maybe something to keep ya reading.

I am left with a few Questions about Cambery
Proust makes a point or ten about there being two way , or routes into town,.
Méséglise way' AKA Swann's Way (If I have it right)
and
Guermantes way

I think the two ways are supposed to symbolize different things. I have read an explanation, but can not make sence of it.
Anyone have a notion?
If so how did you come to it
?
FWIW I get that Marcel likes flowers, Hawthorne esp, but I am ready to choke him if I have to read of him crying his heart out over some trifle.

I am still in, although I’ve not read any of this weeks section yet due to family holiday obligations. I so would have rather been reading ! Haha
I’ll check in later in the week.

I'm still in - just! Yes, Phrodrick, glad you mentioned the idea of the two ways, but I'm having trouble finding their symbolic meanings too. And you made me laugh so much about the flowers ahahaha!
I can't wait to finish reading this section, it is just so tiresome... I had to stop and go read something else that actually had a plot.

Today starts our conversation on Swann's Way, to page 224 (to the paragraph beginning: “It is perhaps from another impression which I received at Montjouvain...”)

Reminder - Next week's reading -
Week ending 7/13: Swann's Way, to page 299 (to the paragraph beginning: “And so, when the pianist had finished...”)

I’m still reading too, though I’m about 60 pages behind right now. Plan to catch up in a few days and make some comments.

Phrodrick, glad to hear the next part is more of a story. While I enjoy the musings of Marcel, they do drag on and make some of the reading a slog.

Proust the story teller is still Proust. There is something about how he gets us into the mind set of Swann in love. Wish I could say more but maybe in two weeks.

Happy birthday, Marcel Proust!

Thanks Ryan !!

I have just finished Book 1 placing me to the day 1 month up. I hesitate stopping least I lose whatever headway I have.
Swann in Love is the best of the book.

The last 40 or so pages in my edition is the section called Place Names. It is an obvious set up for more in the next book and an odd reflection of Swann In Love.

Sorry if that is vague, but as the apparent front runner , I dare not give away much. Tho I am not sure how to define spoiler in terms of this book.

I wonder if anyone even tried to ask if this or that comparison, metaphor or image makes sense or just takes space?

There are some lovely and fragile phrases but lost in a torrent. Like trying to admire specific colorful glints of flashing water while standing in the middle of a water fall.

I’m still catching up and have a few other long reads going so at least through October, I need the organization of the weekly schedule.

I don’t want to hold anyone else back though for those reading outside of that pace. It’s a long read, better to be a happy group than some miserable conformists. I don’t want to give up and I don’t want anyone else to because they feel it’s too slow/fast etc.

Let me know if you still want me to list the schedule on Monday, or maybe I could just list the major sections when they come up, for individual purposes to keep the year goal, to see if you’re still on track? Thoughts?

You put a lot of work into the schedule. SO I am not gonna say a word against it.

That said, experience seems to be saying that folks are going to set their own pace.
I think I have some headway going, and that a stop or break will give me an excuse to stop. A thing I like about buddy reads is the public commitment to keep on.

There are times when I get that Proust is s great writer, the group may not get into what I admired most for another week or two. There are other times when I do not 'get' this man's public reputation.

Hope this helps: From the preface to my copy-
Originally Proust was thinking of a trilogy. In that version Section 1 of what is now book 2 was going to be the end of Swann's Way. Between writing Swann's Way and In the Company of Young Girls in Flower , WWI happened.

He expected the world to lose interest in his book even as he realized he was gonna need more than a trilogy. Instead, he learned that the post WWI world included Proust societies, at least one as far away as China.So he kept going.

No, worries - I get it!

And he can be a godawful wordy fellow. At times it’s lyrical at times it’s just pea soup to get through.

Sometimes I don’t quite understand him either, I’m getting through the part with Françoise and his grandmother. We started with Françoise being so wonderful and helpful to she’s just almost evil in some ways. Am I missing something ?

This goes back to Im not sure what to expect out of this book, but part of me understands I should just slog through and it again will be more compelling ?

I found it rather ironic that Marel’s family goes on and on about M. Legrandin being a snob. And they were awfully cruel with their cat & mouse games. I guess there’s not much to do in a small country village ?

I almost feel like this book is akin to getting to know someone. In the beginning you see the surface and it’s all sunshine and butterflies and then the layers of the onion unfold, and you start seeing the little cracks. We went from the beautiful scenery etc., to mean Françoise and snobby Legrandin.

The back cover of my book says «in Swann’s Way the themes of Proust’s masterpiece are introduced. » So there are themes?

I also find Marcel to be quite fantastical at times. Is this due more to the age Marcel is at this point I wonder?

There is a lot of debate over who was a model for who.
This is as good alist as any, tho I have other sources who say Anatole France is not a figure for anyone in the books.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTVwY...
If nothing else the fashions are worth the time.


Also we have not had a picture for a while. This is the image that Swann has for Odette

I also read that Anatole could have been a model, but was probably not. At any rate, the more I read, the more I find it seems a bit more serialized than memorialized???? Which might more explain the mystery author?

And now that I've read a bit, and any notions of the book I had before I started are completely gone, I feel like I need a bit of history or something to put under my feet to keep going. Where I'm at in the book, its not really punching me in the face yet, I need a bit more meat to bite into as to why now I'm reading this.
I understand its a great work of art, I got that, but ....why??? And there are supposed to be themes...what are the themes? Perhaps I'm not far enough yet, given that I'm barely in book one of a quite a few...? Or I'm overlooking it? Or OVERTHINKING it?

Some claim it gives them a new and richer way of looking at the world. How we can be mistaken in our own assumptions. That Proust changed their lives by giving them a new and richer way of looking at the world. In fact, rendre visible (to make visible) is Proust’s succinct definition of what an original artist does. In Proust’s case, I think he helps us to see the world as it really is, not only its extraordinary beauty and diversity, but his observations make us aware of how we perceive and how we interact with others, showing us how often we are mistaken in our own assumptions and how easy it is to have a biased view of another person. We also become Marcel's companion in the book.

It is supposed to be one of the best books written about perception and expression. It is a "fountain of youth" All the labor and love that an author (or artist, or musician, or scientist—all examples illustrated by Proust) puts into such a creation has a powerful, rejuvenating effect on the reader.

And the themes...
In Search of Lost Time, like many great literary works, is a quest whose structure resembles that of a symphony. The novel’s major themes—love, art, time, and memory—are carefully and brilliantly orchestrated throughout the book. Perhaps that's why Vladimir Nabokov described its major themes and effervescent, Mozartean style as “The transmutation of sensation into sentiment, the ebb and tide of memory, waves of emotions such as desire, jealousy, and artistic euphoria—this is the material of this enormous and yet singularly light and translucent work.”

So perhaps I'm expecting a lot due to the enormity, but the enormity is really in the simplicity and expression of say the flower? Being so used to a story and in our hurried world of this is the point, and lets go on the next, I've not garnered an appreciation in the "ebb and tide" and just stopping and looking at and smelling the asparagus.

Marcel can be quite sensitive at times. Perhaps the detail of his emotions are as astute as the detail he finds in say a flower?

Phrodrick wrote - I am left with a few Questions about Cambery
Proust makes a point or ten about there being two way, or routes into town,.
Méséglise way' AKA Swann's Way (If I have it right)
and Guermantes way

Méséglise way' AKA Swann's Way was the fast way, but they had a few roundabouts to avoid certain parties if they were in residence. The easier route. Swann's way they could go if the weather was possibly inclement, and although the gardens were beautiful because they were awful snobby, they avoided much of it at times.

Guermantes way was the long meandering route. Carefree. This was the way of the nobles. They could spend their time here and 'get lost'. Does it go to the snobbery again because of the Guermantes?

They both had distinct entrances apart from each other in the house. So obviously very two separate things.

I do not have any more thoughts than that either at this point, I need to read as I'm right at his Guermantes point, so maybe more will jump out at me? Or maybe you've gotten on something in further reading?

So I do have a few more thoughts on Méséglise way (Swann's Way) and Guermantes way, as I've just gotten to Swann in Love. (excitement grows!!)

I'm wondering now if it isn't between the two roads, but just the paths in general? That his youthful, innocent recollections of them, can't ever be replicated. He can never go back, even taking the same route, even if the path was the same, it would never be the same. And he can't reflect on them in the same way, because he's older and different now. Also the sadness in thinking about them because they don't hold the same wonder and excitement as they once did.

I admittedly have similar recollections, as I'm reading this last section leading up to Swann in Love, and just appreciating the writing and memories for what they are, and really giving Marcel his due for having the time and taking the time to look at the very simple wonders of nature, putting them to scrutiny and loving the minutia, instead of just half-hardheartedly taking a wayward glance and moving along. I miss the days of laying in my childhood bedroom, having hours on end to which seemed to last weeks, reading and pouring over one book. How times have changed. And it certainly wouldn't be the same today!!

However....the first section we've just read is Swann's Way and then a bit down the road we get to The Guermantes Way, which is not until Vo. 3. So.... perhaps I'm off in any assumptions I've just made and we need to get to Guermantes way until we're given more insight???

Not sure where anyone else is at in the reading, so I'm curious as to thoughts, or where people are at?

Phrodrick, you actually brought this up, but I'm not sure if you've gotten that far yet to expound more?

I have gotten well into book 2 so I will be a tad shy on details
From what I can see the two ways seems to relate to the two classes Marcel seems to address. The middle class will get a pasting, so will the upper, so I am back at , I am not so sure.

It seems like his family refers to both the routes as much as Marcel, they all talked about it, so I guess I wouldn’t be surprised if I was a snobby class thing?

I wonder what theme that comes under? 🤔🤔 LOL

Brenda wrote: "I'm wondering now if it isn't between the two roads, but just the paths in general? That his youthful, innocent recollections of them, can't ever be replicated."
Brenda, what you are describing is amazing and so relatable.
Sadly guys I'm having trouble staying focused on reading the book, as I find this discussion much more interesting and to the point. What you expressed distills exactly what I want to read and was expecting to but I've lost complete interest. I'm sorry... I will definitely keep an eye out on this conversation and hope to come back to the book another time.

I find the idea of never being able to go back to a time/place very intriguing and can also see that in my own life. How I long over the past, there is almost pleasure in the pain of the nostalgia etc. It's kind of unhealthy to be honest.

Betsy wrote: "Brenda wrote: "I'm wondering now if it isn't between the two roads, but just the paths in general? That his youthful, innocent recollections of them, can't ever be replicated."
Brenda, what you are..."

Hi Betsy,
I kinda roared into book II and suddenly there are a lot of excuses to not pick it up. I will get at least 40 pages done this week end. And At least 100 by this time next week. I post this publicly in the hope it will keep me motivated.

That said: May I suggest this version:In Search of Lost Time: Swann's Way: A Graphic Novel
Some of the pictures I have posted are from this version. The individual books are MUCH shorter and the artwork is all lovely pastels.
Copies can be hard to find and rarely cheap. For that matter I am not sure that all of the books have been adopted by Heuet or translated into English.
BTW My copy of In The Shadows is about 580 pages the Heuet version is under 100.

Thanks for this Phrodrick, I'm checking this out now and I'll let you know how it goes. I hope you keep motivated :)

Betsy, I feel your pain sometimes. I feel like Proust and I have now entered into a relationship. The honeymoon phase is over tho. Lol. I’m feeling the ebb and flow of it, sometimes the wedded bliss is back and sometimes I want a divorce, or at least a « girls weekend away ». I keep trying to tell myself I want to read this finally, and given I’m only halfway in of book one, maybe I should wait to pass judgment. AND...In the back of my head a book title is always looming « How Proust Can Change Your Life ». What if it’s really true ??? Haahaha

Phrodrick, you are still ahead and winning the Proust race so far!

The story I am telling myself goes something like this:
Most of the world knows nothing of Proust
The ones that do, most will never try to read him
Of the ones that do most will stop in book 1
of the ones that get past book one...

Well That is where I a now, so I get to look down on all almost everybody and the wanna be's who have not got this far. The very few who finish And are sure of what they read, umm,
Ill have to get back to you on them.

Beside the books positivity teaches one to be snobby

The Cowards Never Started & The Weak Died Along the Way. 😁😬

This is hilarious, thank you :)

Brenda wrote: "The Cowards Never Started & The Weak Died Along the Way. 😁😬"

Given that GR is without borders it might do to explain that this expression is said of the American Pioneers who opened the West. It was a dangerous and difficult thing to do and the intent of the quote is to respect those made the trek.

after a fast start I have almost made it 1/2 way into book 2

Swann in love is a lot like Marcel in love, but maybe because is younger it is different?
I am picking up some things about Marcel that make him less than heroic. Just a suggestion for anyone still reading
Anyone who has loved and been used by his love can ID with Swann's disease.

Again have we noticed that Swann before Odette was someting of a dog?

I’m still slogging through Swanns Way, but he’s in love now.

Do you mean the juvenalia of Marcel and comparing that to Swann? The strange obsession, to almost creepy yet puritanical ? That’s kinda the vibe I’m getting. So far anyway.

I think I can agree now, yes Swann liked to get around, but from some of the descriptions of Odette, she seems a bit free spirited herself. Perhaps they are kindred spirits ? Granted, I’m still in book 1, so perhaps there’s more to that comment, and the previous ?

I did like the turning point of Swann, «  the big reveal ». All the emotions, questions, skepticisms, and then the fog where you are just encompassed. All sensibility has left. You are no longer wholly rational. I feel Proust was fabulous with the recounting of it, describing the roller coaster ride, the wayward thoughts and emotions. He was almost as all over the place as in real life, which I felt helped really capture the reality of what one can go through.

And then there’s a dinner party. And I feel like I’m listening to Marcel go on; that friend that just likes to talk. And talk. And talk. And really sometimes I just have no idea what he’s saying, but you just nod and smile politely.

I read recently that the French do like to talk, that they are very wordy people. Case in point ?

I do feel like we’re seeing more from different characters, their thoughts and view points, giving the book a bit more depth than just the beauty of the flower. He is still wordy. 😬😬

Odette was a courtesan, not exactly a free spirit if you a kept woman?
Not that I am unloading on her, they only met because she was in play so to speak.
Did you pick up that before his obsession, he had a thing going with a shop girl while he began to see Odette?

As for the crowd around Madam V, what a load of hypocrites. Whatever else is the reason for the book. Proust is first and foremost a snob.

By free spirit I guess I meant she was much freer with herself than many unmarried ladies would have been. I guess I didn’t put those two together, and that I thought she was just invited to the parties to play, music. Not other play. Lol. And that makes me laugh, as I think Swann even questioned it to himself... »now that I think about it, someone may have mentioned something about her... but what was it...? » as he’s stalking her wondering who else she’s seeing.

I thought it a bit bizarre, as it seemed Swann had the shopgirl in his carriage every night he got dropped off to see Odette. What is going through the shopgirl’s head I wonder ?

Those people are horrible. Forcheville was yelling at i forget who, and pointing his finger in his face. Who does that in supposed civilized company ? I thought it was funny how Mme V changed her tune about Swann when she realized he just came to see Odette. A bunch of self-important, immature, uncouth barbarians! Did Mme V say it or Marcel, someone did...that they’re each more malicious than the other.

He’s a snob, but I think it’s funny/interesting how he’s always towing the line of some fringe elements. It all started with the creepy kinda going on about his mom’s kiss. M Venduils (sp?) daughter and her new friend and Marcel just so happens to stumble upon a moment between the two girls, the guy from the town who was walking around with his new lover, and now we have Swann, who dines with Princes, yet he’s hanging out with that bunch. Oh and I almost forgot about the uncle !!! Marcel and the family won’t have anything to do with it, yet it’s a constant in the book. And this is only the first book. He’s going on about Madeleines and tea, then some pretty flowers, and then he’s describing a lesbian love scene. It makes me laugh.

I reiterate that it’s absolutely not what I expected. Absolutely curious where he’s going with it, like you say though.

Wow I take a few days off and the place is given over to the crickets?


I have been dealing with some unexpected pains from what seemed at the time to be a minor accident. I am starting back in the second half of books two. So far an amazing lack of young girls for Marcel to be in the shadows of.

I’m sorry to hear about your accident and glad to have you back with “us”!

I will finish book 1 this week, still snailing my way through.

I didn’t have much to say yet, as it’s just been Swann wallowing in his misery of being caught in the web of Odette. I want to feel for him, but he knew early on her nature and he told her he didn’t want to see her too much for this very reason and then he stepped in it. Sometimes it’s hard to escape the mind from ruling the head and turning all rational behavior into something to be scoffed at. I’m just hoping I’m soon coming to the point where he comes to his senses and moves on. I feel like he’s close.

The section at the party where he hears Veutiul’s song was stunning. His dialogue on all the emotions Swann was going through really grabbed me. I liked how Swann could no longer dance around the truth he knows deep down and finally had to make a confrontation.

I am glad someone else see this. For me Swann in Love is if certainly melodramatic the most authentic portrayal of a mis-begotten love turning into obsessive and controlling. To call Swann smitten is to call the Victora Falls a bit damp.

The boy has it bad. He knows he is sick with love and will rationalize away everything while we cannot tell if she notices or cares. Risk of a spoiler , we do know she can count.

I also like the pick up that he not only knew what she had been, but that was what brought them together . Never explicitly said: this seems to be a period when there is a certain competition for mistresses. Rather like a bidding war for known bed hoppers. Get one out from under another is part of a weird period macho thing.


Speculation:
Based o n a toss away line or three later on, I get the impression that a man would be judged as much by the social standing of his mistress as by his professional achievements. To be clear this judgement was a society level thing, not just idle chat in the men's club.

FWIW, I just posted my review. If you care to look, I do not think I gave away much.

Perfect! Since I’ll finish this week I’m going to wait until after to not jade my own thoughts, but I’m looking forward reading it. For a book about not much, there really is a lot. Which can be interpreted in so many ways. Lol