The Sword and Laser discussion

If you want to learn a little more about Jesuits, and get a feel for how they view the world and their role in it, I want to recommend this interview with James Martin, a Jesuit priest. He was interviewed by Krista Tippett in her award-winning podcast, On Being.
In it, he discusses how faith is about being joyful, how Jesuits serve God by being in the world, which makes them much more worldly than other orders. Plus, he shares a few funny jokes about Jesuits!
Highly recommended. I was very impressed, and it's also given me some insight into the Jesuit characters in the book (I feel).

Craig wrote: "Wait. Jesuits are real! I thought they were made up for this book. Learn something new everyday. Although Jesuits is a bit of a daft name to call an order of the Church. That's why I thought the or..."

Wow! That boggles my mind. Jesuits run a lot of schools and colleges in the United States. I guess it's different in the UK?

And the Pope is a Jesuit, too (the first one, actually). A lot of people might not like Christianity or the Catholic Church for whatever reason, but I've always liked the Jesuits.

Barak wrote: "If you want to learn a little more about Jesuits, and get a feel for how they view the world and their role in it, I want to recommend this interview with James Martin, a Jesuit priest. He was inte..."

Thaks for the link. When Pope Francis first became Pope Francis, I saw Fr. Martin on TV talking a bit about the Society of Jesus and I've seen him on tv a couple times since then.

Craig wrote: "Wait. Jesuits are real! I thought they were made up for this book. Learn something new everyday. Although Jesuits is a bit of a daft name to call an order of the Church. That's why I thought the or..."

Jesuit just describes a member of the Society of Jesus, no weirder than Franciscans, Dominicans (God's Dogs!) or Cistericians. (The last of which I absolutely cannot spell, my apologies.)

(Curious, I wonder if members of Jesus college at Oxford ever refer to themselves as Jesuits. Probably not!)

Barak -

Thanks for the link. That was a very cool interview. I've heard people say things that make Jesuits sound interesting for years, but I never followed up on it; I'm happy to have the context.

Craig wrote: "Wow! That boggles my mind. Jesuits run a lot of schools and colleges in the United States. I guess it's different in the UK?"

That would explain some of the current problems with the US academic system. What happened to separation of church and state?

AndrewP wrote: "Craig wrote: "Wow! That boggles my mind. Jesuits run a lot of schools and colleges in the United States. I guess it's different in the UK?"

That would explain some of the current problems with the..."
The schools run by the Jesuits are all private schools. In general, the schools run by the Jesuits are considered good schools, so I don't think they are a cause of academic problems in the US. And since they are private, there is no separation of church and state issue.

Here's Colbert's interview with the awesome Brother Guy Consolmogno, Jesuit scientist who works for the Vatican Observatory.
http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos...


Robyn wrote: "(Curious, I wonder if members of Jesus college at Oxford ever refer to themselves as Jesuits. Probably not!)"

Given the number of Jesuits martyred in England, and England's historic "Jesuits are Papist spies" stereotype [which was true, admittedly], I doubt it :p

@AndrewP: Jesuit colleges are in general known for their excellence. And the state has nothing to do with most colleges in America?

Wiki helpfully tells me that older members of the College may be called 'Jesubites.' This makes me giggle.

And indeed, can't trust a Jesuit (aka, the shock troops of the Counter-Reformation, as one of my professors said every single time they discussed a Jesuit) if you're a good 17th-century Protestant.

AndrewP wrote: "Craig wrote: "Wow! That boggles my mind. Jesuits run a lot of schools and colleges in the United States. I guess it's different in the UK?"

That would explain some of the current problems with the US academic system. What happened to separation of church and state?"

I would wager that a Jesuit-run school is far more open and has a stricter separation of fact from fiction than many public schools in the South or states like Utah, Kansas or Texas. They also have higher academic standards.

Unlike most Christians (and many hardcore Catholics), Jesuits tend to be less on the hysterics and more on the all-inclusiveness. Their typical role of Devil's Advocate and semi-official task as the Church's Doubting Thomas tends to make them immensely tolerant of other beliefs.

Also, it's harder to become a Jesuit than to be a regular priest, with years more study required. If a normal priest is the equivalent of a Masters degree, becoming a Jesuit is like having a PhD. And most of them literally have PhDs.

In the other thread on this topic, I mentioned that despite being one of the largest Orders within the Catholic Church, the Jesuits have only ever had one of their members become Pope. That's the current guy, Francis. So far, Francis has distinguished himself from most other Popes -- including the previous Vortex of Evil Benedict XVI -- by embodying Jesuit principles of humility and plainness.

Francis is a back-to-basics guy, which in my experience is how most Jesuits behave. A lot of conservatives inside and outside the Church view them with suspicion because they tend to follow the principles of Christ a little more closely than most priests, which makes them look like raging liberals to most people.

Of course, like any organization comprised of humans, there are bad ones among the crowd and they've had their share of scandals over the years. But the modern incarnation of Jesuits seems more rational and reasonable than is typical of dogmatic religious folks, so I give them props for that.

More often than not, the Jesuits have been on the right side of history. They were disbanded by the Pope back in the 18th century when they defended the rights of Native Americans, during a time when the prevailing wisdom was "the only good Indian is a dead Indian." They've been ostracized and lost jobs for opening the doors of their colleges to women and minorities decades before it was socially acceptable. They have been punished severely by Popes -- including the beloved John Paul II -- for siding with common people over totalitarian regimes, and recently one Jesuit was excommunicated for celebrating Mass with a female priest, a definite no-no for the Catholic Church.

The Jesuits are specifically tasked with obeying the Pope, yet they will stand against the Pope when his dictates go against what they see as the right thing to do.

As someone with a healthy suspicion of authority myself, I applaud that stance. Anyone who can flip the bird at their boss when doing so potentially jeopardizes their immortal soul gets my respect, and Jesuits do that a lot.

Trike, did you read Children of God too? This comes up a lot in the sequel.

John wrote: "Trike, did you read Children of God too? This comes up a lot in the sequel."

I probably did but I have zero recollection of it.

A friend of mine attended a typical Catholic church school until she was kicked out for seeing a movie on the proscribed list (her mother took her and her sister to see The Red Shoes, which had implied suicide). So they went to a Jesuit school instead, which my friend says is where she learned to think.

My husband went to a Jesuit High School and received a rigorous education that I am extremely jealous of.

I went to an all boys Jesuit high school. While I am still not sure the all boys aspect was helpful, the education I received was excellent. The Jesuits also focused on making sure we all became "men for others" to help all who need it, be a force for positive change in our communities and not be jackasses. They were somewhat successful?

Trike wrote: "Francis is a back-to-basics guy, which in my experience is how most Jesuits behave. A lot of conservatives inside and outside the Church view them with suspicion because they tend to follow the principles of Christ a little more closely than most priests, which makes them look like raging liberals to most people....

More often than not, the Jesuits have been on the right side of history. They were disbanded by the Pope back in the 18th century when they defended the rights of Native Americans, during a time when the prevailing wisdom was "the only good Indian is a dead Indian." They've been ostracized and lost jobs for opening the doors of their colleges to women and minorities decades before it was socially acceptable. They have been punished severely by Popes -- including the beloved John Paul II -- for siding with common people over totalitarian regimes, and recently one Jesuit was excommunicated for celebrating Mass with a female priest, a definite no-no for the Catholic Church...

The Jesuits are specifically tasked with obeying the Pope, yet they will stand against the Pope when his dictates go against what they see as the right thing to do."

I came here to make comments, but see you've pretty much said what I would have said. I served in a volunteer program for a year that is associated with the Jesuits (http://www.jesuitvolunteers.org/about...), and they will always hold a special place in my heart and spirituality -- especially their tendency to speak out against authority if something is wrong. The Church certainly needs that.

Then again, I went to school with a bunch of Dominican priests and am currently a parishioner at a parish run by Franciscans, so my take on Catholicism on the whole is a weird conglomeration of all my favorite parts of the different 'flavors' of each order. :)

Regardless of how Jesuits are in real life, my take on this book is that it makes them out to be arrogant, ignorant idiots.

AndrewP wrote: "Regardless of how Jesuits are in real life, my take on this book is that it makes them out to be arrogant, ignorant idiots."

They have those, too, no doubt about it. Humans, harrumph. What can you do?

Trike wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "Craig wrote: "Wow! That boggles my mind. Jesuits run a lot of schools and colleges in the United States. I guess it's different in the UK?"

That would explain some of the current p..."

Trike wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "Craig wrote: "Wow! That boggles my mind. Jesuits run a lot of schools and colleges in the United States. I guess it's different in the UK?"

That would explain some of the current p..."

Trike wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "Craig wrote: "Wow! That boggles my mind. Jesuits run a lot of schools and colleges in the United States. I guess it's different in the UK?"

That would explain some of the current p..."

The formation of a Jesuit takes about 13 years. In general, you have a more learned priest when they finish, typically in their early thirties.

While most religious orders take on 3 vows - poverty, chastity, and obedience, after a period of service, Jesuits are allowed a fourth: "I further promise a special obedience to the souvereign pontiff in regard to the missions, according to the same Apostolic Letters and the Constitutions."

The Society of Jesus' motto is, Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam - For the greater glory of God, which basically is the motivation behind all its work.

Major Jesuit institutions in the US include Boston College, Georgetown University, and Fordham University. Also any institution that has the name Loyola or Xavier attached to it is likely a Jesuit institution.

The Jesuits were created as a counterpoint to the Reformation. Their goal was to stop people from telling the Pope to jump in a lake. So when the New World opened up, the Jesuits beat a hotfoot over there to get some new believers.

I'd always thought it was the other way around-- Ignatius, Xavier etc wanted to be missionaries to Africa and Asia, and when the counter-reformation started churning a few years after they were founded, the popes were like, "you! Missionaries! Be missionaries to Europe too in our counter-reformation"

But I guess that's a quibble.

Rob Secundus wrote: "Here's Colbert's interview with the awesome Brother Guy Consolmogno, Jesuit scientist who works for the Vatican Observatory.
http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos......"

I second Brother Guy's awesomeness. He's in charge of the Vatican's collection of meteorites. I heard him talk about traveling to Antarctica searching for specimens. You can often see him at sf cons, including the upcoming Boskone (in Boston).

^That's pretty cool. I used to live in Boston and have been to many a Boskone.

Random question, how many people get the Boskone reference? Or the other convention in Boston, Arisia?

John wrote: "^That's pretty cool. I used to live in Boston and have been to many a Boskone.

Random question, how many people get the Boskone reference? Or the other convention in Boston, Arisia?"

Do you mean awareness of the events themselves or the Lensmen connection?

Trike wrote: "John wrote: "^Do you mean awareness of the events themselves or the Lensmen connection? "

LOL ..

Coincidentally when they were putting the mission together in TS it reminded me of The Skylark of Space

kvon wrote: "Rob Secundus wrote: "Here's Colbert's interview with the awesome Brother Guy Consolmogno, Jesuit scientist who works for the Vatican Observatory.
http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos...-..."

I didn't know the man himself, but one of his coworkers in the vatican observatory (a Jesuit priest, not a Bro) was our chaplain while I was in Rome. Cool dude. Lot of talk of Harry Potter, Star Trek, etc. The Jesuits I've encountered do seem to be pretty into Pop Cultur

Yes, I meant the Lensman connection. I've found quite a few SF fans who haven't heard of Lensman.

John wrote: "Yes, I meant the Lensman connection. I've found quite a few SF fans who haven't heard of Lensman."

If this were 40 years ago, not knowing about E.E. Smith would be inexcusable because there was so little SF back then. But there's been such an explosion of Science Fiction since the late 70s that I can see where people would not have heard of it even if all they consume is sci-fi.

What a great thread! I learned a lot about Jesuits and have a healthy respect and admiration for their mission.

For anyone interested, Jesuits in film-

The Mission (Roland Joffé, 1986) Starring Jeremy Irons and Robert De Niro.
-18th century Spanish Jesuits try to protect a remote South American Indian tribe in danger of falling under the rule of pro-slavery Portugal.

Black Robe (Bruce Beresford, 1991) Starring Lothaire Bluteau, Aden Young, and Sandrine Holt.
-A young Jesuit priest seeks to convert the Indian tribes in Canada while also trying to survive the harsh winter.

Louie wrote: "For anyone interested, Jesuits in film- "

and later this year there is another one coming.

Silence. Directed by Martin Scorsese. Starring Liam Neeson & Andrew Garfield.
-In the seventeenth century, two Jesuit priests face violence and persecution when they travel to Japan to locate their mentor and to spread the gospel of Christianity.

Haven't read this since I was 14, but James Clavell's "historical" fiction novel Shogun has much involving Jesuits in Japan around 1600. They are not sympathetically characterized in that book, which may well be deserved(I'm no expert).
Of course, you can also find a way to watch the 1980 TV miniseries, if you like.

James Joyce, who was famously opposed to the Catholic Church, nonetheless still maintained affection for the Jesuits:
"You allude to me as a Catholic. Now for the sake of precision and to get the correct contour on me, you ought to allude to me as a Jesuit" - he also said, in what I think is a good expression, that the Jesuits taught him "to arrange things in such a way that they become easy to survey and to judge".


Jesuits obviously didn't invent Catholic reasoning. But they became famous for their dedication to it. As a result, several words have become slurs by association with the Jesuits: "casuistry", often now meaning pedantic quibbling, is the Jesuit practice of moral judgement according to the case in hand, evaluating the fine details of what actually happened, weighing competing values, rather than simply condoning or condemning things in broad terms on general principle.
'Equivocation', now almost always used unflatteringly, was the Jesuit theory and practice that it was OK to mislead so long as you don't outright lie - to speak in two voices, as it were, so that you will be interpreted one way while God knows your true intent. It was how the Jesuits operated as a prohibited religion in protestant countries, without having to lie (as back then everyone regarding lying as worse than murder). Needless to say, the Protestants did not take kindly to this concept...

I went to a Dominican school and then to a Jesuit college, and I can vouch for the quality of both. They have, more than most religious orders, a clear distinction between faith and science.

One of the funny things for me, is that Mendes has such a hatred against Sandoz, when Jesuits were also expelled from Spain several times (1767, 1834 and 1932). I actually expected them to bond over that...

Frank Herbert based the Bene Gesserit off of the Jesuits.....I went to a Jesuit all boys highschool in the 80's, and remember that the Jezzie teachers assigned us a lot of homework the week Shogun first ran on network TV!