#ClassicsCommunity 2021 Reading Challenge discussion

Timár_Krisztina wrote: "I guess we didn't forget your question, it's just we're not there yet. :) "
Great! I wasn't able to handle multiple books at the same time, so I was only focusing on this one novel.

Li wrote: "Timár_Krisztina wrote: "I guess we didn't forget your question, it's just we're not there yet. :) "
Great! I wasn't able to handle multiple books at the same time, so I was only focusing on this on..."

I've also sped up, because I was so interested in the story, but unfortunately I have to handle multiple books now, because of my job. :( I won't be able to get my hands on War and Peace until the weekend, and I hate not learning what happens to which character here and now. :(
It's somewhat comforting, though, that I'm also interested in the other books. :) I've just finished a volume of short stories, and what I'm reading now is also a classic by a Hungarian Romani author.

Some summaries from book 2. (Spoilers obviously)
Book 2, part 3
1. Prince Andrew still lives the life of an emotional recluse – not wishing for everything.
2. Prince Andrew sees Count Rostov on business and meets Natasha.
3. Prince Andrew realizes life is not over at 31 (!) and, it seems, slowly but surely reawakens.
4. Prince Andrew goes to St Petersburg to propose a reform of the army regulation.
5. Prince Andrew meets Speransky, Secretary of State.
6. Prince Andrew, in his futile search for The Perfect Man, comes to admire Speransky greatly, although disconcerted by his contempt for others, his mirror-look, and his soft, white hands.
7. Pierre, in the meantime, has fallen out with his freemason brothers.
8. Pierre seeks advice from the old man who introduced him to the Freemasons and reunites with his wife.
9. We are made acquainted with the new dynamics in Pierre’s marriage.
10. Pierre keeps a diary where he makes notes of his personal and spiritual development.
11. Berg proposes to Vera, not for money, but he needs some of the dowry in advance to provide for her.
12. Boris visits the Rostovs for the first time in four years and although he has no intention of marrying Natasha, he is enchanted by her and keeps coming back.
13. The Countess Rostov talks to Boris, who she knows is not going to and shouldn’t marry Natasha, and he stops coming.
14. It’s New Year’s Eve 1810 and the Rostovs are going to a grand ball.
15. They arrive at the ball and both Pierre and Prince Andrew are there.
16. Prince Andrew and Natasha dance.
17. Prince Andrew appreciates Natasha’s shy naivité and complete lack of knowledge of life (yeah….).
18. Prince Andrew suddenly becomes disillusioned with his work and his attachment to Speransky.
19. Prince Andrew visits the Rostovs and has a rejuvenating spiritual experience while listening to Natasha sing.
20. Vera and Berg are making their debut as hosts in society by having a select gathering, like everybody else.
21. Pierre is quite the observer and at Berg’s and Vera’s party observes a change in both Natasha and Andrew.
22. Prince Andrew is in love with Natasha, Natasha does not know what she is feeling, and Pierre is becoming depressed searching for meaning.
23. Prince Andrew proposes to Natasha, and when she says yes he no longer wants her.
24. Prince Andrew is going away for a year, after which he intends to marry Natasha, who, I think, will be quite changed by then.
25. Princess Mary hears a rumor about her brother’s engagement, but believes it to be impossible he would ever marry again, let alone Natasha.
26. Princess Mary dreams of becoming a pilgrim, to leave human weakness behind.
Book 2 part 4
1. Nicholas finally goes home after several pleading letters from his mother, who explains the family’s poor state of affairs, and feels there is something off about the engagement between Prince Andrew and Natasha.
2. After initially feeling certain obligations, Nicholas does not involve himself in his father’s poor management of the estate.
3. Nicholas wants to go on a wolf-hunt, and his siblings insist on going.
4. Count Rostov doesn’t shoot a wolf during the hunt and people get upset.
5. They catch a wolf alive.
6. The men get absurdly caught up in the hunt and the question of who has the better dog.
7. Natasha and Nicholas spend a very pleasant evening at the home of ‘Uncle’.
8. The Rostov’s affairs are declining and the family is on its way to financial ruin.
9. Natasha doesn’t know what to do with herself.
10. A sleigh-ride at Christmas.
11. Nicholas and Sonya kiss.
12. Nicholas decides Sonya is for him and Natasha is anxious for Andrew.
13. The Rostov family’s fortune, happiness and luck is in decline.
Book 2, part 5
1. Pierre knows that the way we choose to live our lives is one big distraction from the wrongness we ourselves have created, but he is unable to stop himself from participating. (Really good chapter!)
2. Princess Mary’s situation is hell on earth.
3. Princess Mary’s senile father threatens to throw her out of the house.
4. Prince Andrew is soon to marry Natasha, but his father objects forcefully.
5. Boris is to marry the heiress Julie Karagin for her money, and already plans on not seeing her much.
6. Natasha has come to Moscow, awaiting Prince Andrew’s return.
7. Natasha meets Princess Marry and they dislike each other.
8. Natasha is at the Opera and apparently stunning.
9. Tolstoy makes fun of the opera, Hélène is half-naked, and Natasha basks in Anatole Kuragin’s attention.
10. A conversation with Anatole Kuragin leaves Natasha with a queer, uncomfortable feeling.
11. Dolokhov is still a psychopath, and Anatole a dumb wastrel who plans to seduce Natasha.
12. Hélène invites Natasha to a soirée to throw Natasha and Anatole together.
13. Anatole aggressively pursues Natasha, who now fancies herself in love with him.
14. Anatole sends Natasha a love letter, composed by Dolokhov, and she completely looses herself.
15. Natasha seems to completely have lost her mind.
16. Anatole and Dolokhov have planned how Anatole and Natasha are to elope.
17. Sonya has foiled the plot! Thank goodness someone has common sense!
18. The Count is not told of Natasha’s stupidity.
19. Pierre is informed of what has happened and can confirm to Natasha that Anatole is already married.
20. Pierre makes Anatole leave St Petersburg.
21. Natasha’s despair allows Pierre to comfort her and find joy in that.

Okay, what happened here...
It is ironic that that which first attracted Andrew to Natasha (her naivité and lack of knowledge of life) is her downfall.
I also felt that the way she reacted to the situation/her feelings/that worthless man was so absurd as to be out of character, despite how naive she is. And, agreeing with what you argued about Hélène above, I wonder if her behavior and the result thereof is really more about setting the scene for Prince Andrew and/or Pierre in some way.
It feels a bit like several of the women in the book, which seem like important characters, are really just props for the men in some way or other.
Also, could someone teach these girls that not all strong emotions you have about a man are love? Disgust is also a strong emotion.

Neele wrote: "Okay, what happened here...
It is ironic that that which first attracted Andrew to Natasha (her naivité and lack of knowledge of life) is her downfall.
I also felt that the way she reacted to the ..."

I don't agree. I think her change of heart is well-prepared. It's not only her lack of experience at all.

From the first time we meet her, her emotions change very, very easily, and she knows that, and doesn't deny it either, because she never lies. When she says she'll love someone forever, she believes it to be true. By the time she falls in love with Andrei, she already knows herself better, that's why she tells him that she won't be able to bear being alone for a year. And she's right. She has much more room in her heart than what one man can fill, especially if that man is far away.

There's one point when she sings really beautifully. At that point her mother thinks she'll never be happy because there's too much in her. And I say she is right. I don't think Tolstoy makes the female characters mere props. I think it was the Russian society of the time that made them mere props. I think that Natasha's biggest problem is that she is "too much" to be only a prop.

Just think of what she can and cannot do. Andrei goes abroad, meets new people every day (probably other women, too, although he doesn't seem to think of having anything to do with other women, but if he did, it would be considered easily forgivable by the same society), gains the experience of the war, while she stays at home, sees the same people, remains in the same circles. She knows that full well, she thinks it's unfair, and she also knows she is not able to cope with the situation like Sonya.

She also has a beautiful voice, a gift for the art of singing. Fine. Is there a way for her to at least show her gift to the world? No, only to family and friends. If she wasn't an aristocrat, she could be an opera singer and tour the world. This way, she's for a few to listen to, and probably only until her marriage. Her voice, her gift is simply an ornament to make her more attractive.

Becoming a wife is the only thing she can look forward to. Not as if she wanted anything else. She would be absolutely fine with that, as she loves Andrei. But he is absent. And I think there are tiny signs showing that however innocent she is, she doesn't only miss Andrei, she also misses married life as such. She desires him, which is completely normal, but no one around thinks so, so no one notices it. They are convinced young aristocratic girls have no sexual desires, neither should they have any. When her desires are the strongest, Anatole appears, notices them and uses them.

That's where her lack of experience comes in, with no one around to help her. She desires him, too, but she could never admit that to herself, because she doesn't even know the right words to form her thoughts - how would she? So, instead, she thinks she loves him, and takes back her word, because she never lies.

She knows her mother would probably understand her, but Sonya wouldn't - and she's right again. In general, I'm absolutely depressed by the characters' failure to communicate with each other. There have been too many occasions when something terrible happened just because someone wasn't able to speak out, find the right words, or just find the partner who'd understand.

By the way, I adore the way Pierre deals with the situation. I'm half in love with him I guess. I know we'd make a horrid couple, though. I resemble him too much. :P

In short, up until now (the end of Volume 3) I haven't found anything that would make me give up hope on Natasha developing into adulthood on her own right, in her own way, just like the male characters. So far, she has had her own story. Not as eventful as that of the others, but that's because of her limited possibilities in contemporary society. I very much hope Tolstoy will keep up the good work for Volume 4, too.

I have to agree with Timoir- ugh....it won’t let me spell that right....

It does seem the women are props to set up the male characters, but they also stand on their own. They are strong women, as has been described above. Tolstoy is a master at characters and I trust his depictions. He has a purpose, I believe. Natasha changing her mind is a rather strong move, especially for the time. Most of the female characters are strong. But Natasha has the freedom to make her own choice and commit to what she wants and change her mind when the situation changes. And while I feel bad for Andrew, he didn’t really treat her well. He kept things from her from the beginning, like when he goes to talk to his dad and is gone for weeks without talking to her. He also was very clear she could change her mind, which is nice, but also is not the way to fight for what you want or prove it’s important to you. Her actions don’t seem too strange to me!

Ashley wrote: "I have to agree with Timoir- ugh....it won’t let me spell that right....

It does seem the women are props to set up the male characters, but they also stand on their own. They are strong women, as..."

Call me Krisztina, to make it simple. :) We spell our names the other way around. :)
I didn't think of Andrei keeping things from Natasha, but now you're saying it, it's obvious to me, too! And think of him not introducing her to his father in person, but disappearing into the army instead, and making it Natasha's and Marya's business to try their best...

Yeah! That’s true too! He’s not very good at convincing her he wants to marry her! Haha

I'm finishing the book in a few days. During Volume 3 and the first half of Volume 4 I just wasn't able to hold myself back and forgot about all the work I had to do.

I'm not going to write any spoilers here, just a few general remarks: I absolutely loved Volume 3, but since beginning to read Volume 4 the attitude of the narrator has changed somewhat, and so has my opinion.

In Volume 4 some characters (both female and male, by the way) have really become mere props for one of the protagonists, and I'm not happy about that at all. I don't like the overt didacticism of Volume 4 either. I very much preferred the irony of the previous parts, where the readers were trusted to use their own brains.

We still have the interplay of different viewpoints, though, which is great, I love that! And Volume 4 is where you can find some of the most elevating passages of the whole book.

It's still a marvellous book, one of the most important ones of the culture of the world ever.

I just compared chapters, and I believe my chapters 9-11 (or was it 8-11? Doesn’t matter too much...) are volume 3, so I just started it. I actually added notes to my book about how I enjoyed the writing at the beginning. The way he handles the war and gets into some philosophy is very interesting and I f I he myself settling in, the same way I do with Dickens and did with Anna K. I have enjoyed the book up to this point, but have not “settled in” to the writing as I call it. It’s hard to explain, so hopefully you fellow readers can understand. Some books are a chore to get through. Some are good, but not as smooth and easy to read. Some are so easy to read and just beautiful and I want to keep reading. The later is what I mean by settling in. But maybe that’s just because of the way I read and what I like about books. I love words and always focus on the way things are written. I could read an entire book just for the prose, even if nothing really happened, because I love good writing.

Timár_Krisztina wrote: "Neele wrote: "Okay, what happened here...
It is ironic that that which first attracted Andrew to Natasha (her naivité and lack of knowledge of life) is her downfall.
I also felt that the way she r..."

Excellent points! Thank you!

Ashley wrote: "Yeah! That’s true too! He’s not very good at convincing her he wants to marry her! Haha"

Well, there was the point right after he proposes to her and she accepts, when he feels he no longer wants her (Book 2, part 3, chapter 23), so.....
I was really disappointed in him at that point.

Yes! The whole thing is crazy! And now she’s sick over it, but then get better. It’s always very fascinating to me how authors handled mental illness long ago. She obviously is depressed and it’s leading her to be sick. Once she has people around her, taking care of her, and paying attention to her, she was more distracted and felt better, which lead to her not being ill any longer.

More chapter summaries. Well, well, well.

Book three, part one
1. Tolstoy contemplates the complexities of history.
2. Napoleon is moving his troops into Russia.
3. Emperor Alexander is notified of Napoleon’s aggression.
4. Emperor Alexander sends an envoy to Napoleon.
5. The French troops advance, and Napoleon finally receives the Emperor’s envoy.
6. Napoleon has an angry outburst.
7. Napoleon has no interest in peace.
8. Prince Andrew is back in the army, but his anger and disappointment are making life hard.
9. Prince Andrew analyzes the problems in the Russian army.
10. Prince Andrew (Tolstoy) continues his analysis of the chief participants of the Russian war effort.
11. Everybody is terrified of Napoleon and nobody knows what they’re doing.
12. Nicholas is looking forward to retiring from the army after this war.
13. All is merry before the hussars’ first battle.
14. The hussars are moving towards the battle.
15. Nicholas shows initiative and is commended for it.
16. Natasha’s illness, due to grief, starts to improve.
17. Natasha, still depressed, finds comfort and hope in religion.
18. In church, Natasha prays intensely.
19. Pierre, still in love with Natasha, is convinced (on shaky grounds) that something momentous is about to happen in his life.
20. Petya wants to join the hussars and Pierre decides not to visit the Rostovs anymore because of his love for Natasha.
21. After seeing the Emperor, Petya is resolute in his decision to fight for his country.
22. The Nobility is called together by the Emperor, and they trip all over themselves proclaiming their willingness to sacrifice everything for Russia.
23. In the heat of emotions, the noblemen promise the Emperor more men for the war.

Book 3, part 2
1. Tolstoy contemplates the factors that led to the defeat of the French army in 1812.
2. The old Prince Nicholas’ dementia is putting everybody at risk.
3. The old Prince is done with life.
4. Smolensk is destroyed and the French army will soon be at Bald Hill.
5. Prince Andrew rides past and visits Bald Hill, which is now abandoned.
6. All developments are discussed in the salons of St. Petersburg, who are pro-French (Hélène) or contra-French (Anna P.).
7. Napoleon is advancing toward Moscow.
8. The old Prince Nicholas dies after two seizures and finds kind words for Princess Mary, who feels guilty for dreaming about a life of freedom.
9. Rebellious serfs hinder Princess Mary’s escape to Moscow.
10. Princess Mary, grief stricken, suddenly realizes she might fall into the hands of a French general if she does not leave.
11. It is amazing how ridiculously difficult it is for Princess Mary to leave.
12. Princess Mary spends the night thinking of her father and his last words to her.
13. Nicholas Rostov comes to where Princess Mary is, now kept prisoner by the serfs, and intends to help her to leave.
14. Princess Mary, now on her way to safety, wonders if she is in love with Nicholas, who believes it would be convenient for everyone if he married her (but he can’t because he is engaged to Sonya).
15. Prince Andrew is called to the new commander-in-chief Kutozov.
16. Prince Andrew has confidence in Kutuzov.
17. Gossip.
18. Pierre feels a strange excitement and goes to join the army to make a sacrifice.
19. Tolstoy corrects the historians on the battle of Borodino.
20. Pierre continuous to travel about, trying to join the army.
21. Pierre witnesses soldiers, peasants, and Kutuzov praying to the icon of Smolensk.
22. Pierre finally meets Kutuzov, and other acquaintances who are all keen to further their own prospects.
23. Pierre thinks he’s not bright enough to understand military talk, but that might just be because they are talking rubbish.
24. Pierre meets up with Prince Andrew, who is contemplating life and death before next day’s battle.
25. Prince Andrew elucidates his philosophy of war, and, when alone again, thinks of his love for Natasha.
26. Napoleon on the eve of battle.
27. Napoleon plans the battle, which, as Tolstoy explains, is meaningless because a battle is a series of unforeseen events.
28. Tolstoy makes some interesting points on whose will actually decides what happens.
29. On the morning of the battle Napoleon cannot sleep.
30. Pierre witnesses the beginning of the battle and decides to get closer.
31. Pierre is playing tourist and experiences war firsthand.
32. Pierre runs to and fro on the battlefield.
33. Tolstoy describes to chaos of battle.
34. Napoleon comes to the realization that the battle is going badly.
35. Kutuzov decides that the battle is going well.
36. Prince Andrew is wounded, realizing in that moment his will to live.
37. Anatole Kuragin gets his leg amputated, and Prince Andrew finds love, compassion and forgiveness.
38. Are our actions predestined or are we responsible for them, or both?
39. Spirit is what wins battles.

I really enjoy book three. I think in it I've read some of the best chapters so far.
Krisztina, I'd be interested on hearing more on your thoughts on book 4 and how it differs from book 3.
Right now I'm at the end of book 3, and it has been so exciting that I'm surprised I still write my summaries.

I found book three interesting because it is a lot more about the war, and I get the feeling that Tolstoy enjoyed writing these chapters maybe more than others. He turns at times very philosophically, and it seems like he is keen on communicating his points and ideas to the reader.
Also, the development of Natasha, Princess Mary, and Sonya are very gripping, and I'm very interested in seeing how these things turn out. I'm prepared to be surprised.

I don't know if everybody has read book 3, so I won't say too much, but there was a chapter ending that made me shout out loud. Since Prince Andrew for some reason is a favorite of mine, I guess you can tell which chapter that was.

Ashley wrote: "I just compared chapters, and I believe my chapters 9-11 (or was it 8-11? Doesn’t matter too much...) are volume 3, so I just started it. I actually added notes to my book about how I enjoyed the w..."

I find this very interesting because I've have never considered reading "just for the prose", but always rather for the story. Reading War and Peace I've gained some other perspectives, I feel. Partly I've come to appreciate the authors way of expressing himself and I find myself re-reading sentences because I find them so well-constructed, and also, I think a lot more about what the author is trying to tell me as the reader, and how he "uses" his characters to get his point across.
These might seem fairly obvious points to others, but for me this book has been a revelation in several ways.

Neele wrote: "I really enjoy book three. I think in it I've read some of the best chapters so far.
Krisztina, I'd be interested on hearing more on your thoughts on book 4 and how it differs from book 3.
Right ..."

I'm going to write a full review about the book soon, as a blog post. It's going to be in Hungarian, but I can also translate some parts into English to share them with you.
This will take time, though. :( The schoolyear has begun, and I have a lot of work to do.

Oh! I’m excited your loving the writing! It makes a book so much more enjoyable. And what you said about using characters and such- doesn’t that make your expense better? I have a hard time finding people who want to discuss things like that. They have shallow conversations! I want to talk about there characters and themes and the way the author structures his writing or story line! And all the things you brought up. I get excited about it and love seeing the brilliance of a writer as I do this!

I have been keeping up on summaries. I know I’ll want them next time I read this. But it does make it slower. And I haven’t taken the time to type them up yet!