The Obscure Reading Group discussion

Yvonne wrote: "Very much an aside; am looking for help with finding the best available kindled edition of Virginia Woolf’s _To the Lighthouse_, to read for another group I’m in. The Amazon search function for a b..."

This came up first on my search.

https://smile.amazon.com/Lighthouse-V...

Carol, yeah, thanks, but it’s the same reviews I saw for a couple other editions, including one review that says the book is incomplete. And while the listing says kindled, the narrative description describes an audio edition (or two or three of them). In other words, Amazon’s system is a mess and it feels like buying this one or any one of the others will be a stab in the dark, a hope and a prayer. There’s no telling which is the best edition or even a complete edition.

None of the three local public library OverDrive collections I use in the SF Bay Area has it as kindled, either. I guess I’ll have to check out a print copy.

Candi wrote: "I think this is a great idea too!

I am finally reading Sophie's Choice. It seems I am late to the party with this one, never having read the book nor watched the movie before! I love..."
Hi Candi, how did you go with Sophie’s Choice? I thought it was excellent, but never got around to reading any more of his works. And, of course, David Copperfield, I love that.

Hello, ORG-anization!

Somehow, at the tail end of the TENANT OF WILDFELL HALL discussion thread, a Hemingway side discussion broke out.

Anne Brontë and Ernie? Hell, Hemingway doesn't even merit an umlaut! (Though many like to give him an extra "m" as in "Hemmingway," which is nowhere near the problem Edgar Allan Poe has with people who want to hijack his "Allan" and make it an "Allen" wrench.)

Anyway, what think you of the big lug (read: his writing -- that is, if you an read it)?

The double M in Hemingway always used to get on my nerves. May as well call him Lemmingway. He was macho enough to jump off cliffs too, no doubt.

I've read more than one biography and, through the lens of his times (think "Mad Men" macho) and of his upbringing, you can see it coming. Mrs. Hemingway put him in dresses when he was a toddler and young boy, plus she was an outsized personality.

Anyway, his reaction to that led to... um, you know. A rather twisted take on manliness, which included weird fetishes like preferring women with very short hair.

One of his sons (Patrick?) was a cross-dresser, something Ernie came to grips with (to his credit) before his suicide.

I love Hemingway for all his flaws, and have been nurtured by a die-hard Hemingway-fan professor too. Yes, he did have some odd fetishes alright. I think a few things were slightly odd in that posthumous novel, The Garden of Eden. I, mostly, prefer his short stories.

I've read very little by Ernest Hemingway, and nothing recently. Any suggestions for a restart?

If you like short stories, that may be a good start, as some say that's his true calling. Of course, the Collected would be overwhelming, so maybe his first, In Our Time, which I once studied, marked up, and imitated (bad idea) as a young writer.

Of the novels, I'd say either the war romance A Farewell to Arms or the drinking book set at the running of the bulls (Pamplona Festival in Spain), The Sun Also Rises, are his two best outings.

It's just a case of which you prefer. Farewell has a bit of a mini-War & Peace feel, as the scenes are split between WWI scenes (Italy) and romance with a nurse scenes. Sun has all that bull fighting nonsense, but it's true to the core about alcoholics and their funny dialogue (which inevitably devolves into nasty dialogue... liquor, you see).

I agree with Ken. I never saw the appeal for his For Whom the Bell Tolls. I had a professor say she had to put it down from crying so much and soaking the pages! I was bored stiff throughout.

How interesting, Matthew. I like Hemingway, but if I had to pick a favorite, For Whom the Bell Tolls would win hands down. I don't really think anything he has written could be dubbed "obscure" though. He is just too well-known for that.

The first Hemingway I read was A Moveable Feast, which I absolutely loved (I'd recommend that one, Jean). Because of reading that first, I focus on him as a writer behind the writing more than I usually do when I read. I haven't read any of the major books yet though, just short stories.

He's one of those writers that I try not to think about as a real person, but instead just focus on the work and my reaction to it. I've seen some biographical stuff, and he's certainly an interesting (and loathsome) character, but I preferred his take on things in A Moveable Feast. Even though it was totally biased, surely inaccurate and unfair to all others, I enjoyed reading it. :-) And it colored my future reading of his stories--it's like you can see his hang-ups coming through in the prose.

I read Hemingway in undergrad English at Michigan decades ago, along with Faulkner, Fitzgerald, Henry James, Hawthorne, and others.

Developed an aversion, I suppose based on that macho reputation. Even now he wouldn’t be my first choice for my next reading by a long shot, but maybe he deserves another look from the vantage point of having lived much more life now than I had when I read him before.

I think that of much of what I read as an undergrad. How differently I would understand it from having lived life. (I’m 71. Was an undergrad in Ann Arbor 1967-71.)

I wouldn't choose Hemingway as my go-to American writer, but I did, and I suppose still do, like him. I haven't read him for a few years now as I read way too much at once and, I think, damaged my view of him by simply being sick of his all too recognisable prose.

Love Faulkner and Fitzgerald, Yvonne. One of my big true American loves is Jack Kerouac, though there aren't many of us out there who appreciate him. I've been told countless times I'll grow up and dislike him.

Hmm. Faulkner would be interesting. I bet we could find an obscure Faulkner. I'm curious about The Wild Palms. Has anyone read it?

I have it on my bookcase, Kathleen. It's actually one of those elusive books that for whatever reason you never get around to reading.

It's Faulkner I can't stand. Ugh. Neutral on Fitzy.

Not to worry, Hem would never be an ORG choice. Even if a book were nominated, I doubt it would garner many votes.

Agree, Kathleen, about Moveable Feast. It's imbued with his Romanticism and regret over dumping his first wife and true love (everyone's favorite Hem wife), Hadley.

Bumby's mom!

Regarding someone's previous comment, I would be ok with reading Kerouac. I found this link to women beat writers:

https://www.bustle.com/p/7-female-bea...

My Hemingway reads are limited to For Whom the Bell Tolls which I read last year as part of the Pulitzer group I belong to. We are reading the near misses as well as the winners starting last year. The only other experience with Hemingway I have is a Nick Adams stories collection that I read in high school. I enjoyed these. They are set in Michigan and Nick Adams liked being on his own out in the forests and wild areas...something that, at the time, I enjoyed doing and still do.

I am sure I will read The Old Man and the Sea at some point, just because it is a Pulitzer winner but I don't go out of my way to seek out his books to read.

One author that I like is Stephen Crane. I have read The Red Badge of Courage at least twice and also have a collection of his poetry. An obscure book of his is Maggie: A Girl of the Streets which is on my to read list.

Thanks for the suggestions!

I like the short sentences , reminds me of the staccato of a typewriter. I think Hemingway’s career as a journalist comes into play.

I have read several of his books. If I was pressed to choose it would be “Inlands in the Stream”

I meant Islands

The mention of Crane reminds me that The Red Badge of Courage was required reading in my high school’s English Humanities curriculum, mid-‘60s. My brother (two years younger) called it The Red Barge of Garbage. No offense intended for those who love it; I remember liking it myself; just thought I’d share his wacky humor. ~y.

Carol wrote: "I like the short sentences , reminds me of the staccato of a typewriter. I think Hemingway’s career as a journalist comes into play."

Good description. Some of his sentences are long, but mostly because they're roped together with and's.

Yvonne wrote: "The mention of Crane reminds me that The Red Badge of Courage was required reading in my high school’s English Humanities curriculum, mid-‘60s. My brother (two years younger) called it The Red Barg..."

The weird thing was, Crane never went to war. It was all the power of imagination, based on his readings and perhaps talks with soldiers. I, too, only read it once and that was high school.

Amazing, isn't it, how limited the curricula were back in the day. No matter where you grew up and went to high school, you probably read a lot of the same books, e.g.

Red Badge of Courage
A Tale of Two Cities
Great Expectations
Huckleberry Finn
A Separate Peace
The Catcher in the Rye
Julius Caesar
The Merchant of Venice (pre-politically incorrect days)
Hamlet
Macbeth
The Scarlet Letter

and so on.

An interesting Hemingway discussion! I have only read three, A farewell to arms, Men without women and Old man and the sea. I should read more, as I liked these. Men without women (I recollect, as I read it in 1991, I think) was a series of linked short stories set around Florida, gun runners and tough men. (Murakami has recently written a book with a similar title, maybe a nod to Hemingway?) I liked A farewell to arms better. I also liked On the road, as somone mentioned Kerouac. Hey, I love those titles from school, Ken, Australia in the 1980’s was so similar ... I can say that our school read eight of these! (Also Midsummer nights dream and Othello.) I would like to read The red badge of courage.

Ken, did you read ‘The Lord of the Flies’ too? I remember that being on the list.

I’ve read A Moveable Feast, which I really liked, and The Sun Also Rises, which I recall feeling somewhat indifferent about. Bullfighting and drinking aren’t hot reading topics for me.

Nick wrote: "An interesting Hemingway discussion! I have only read three, A farewell to arms, Men without women and Old man and the sea. I should read more, as I liked these. Men without women (I recollect, as ..."

Nick, I just read On the Road for the first time this past summer and was "meh" on it. Maybe my road days are over. OK, maybe they never arrived. But I did like another Kerouac title better... it's title escapes me at the moment, is all.

Plus I relished reading a BIG collection of Kerouac -- Ginsberg letters. I think their personalities were stronger than their writing, is what it amounts to. And the Kerouac drinking dive is just pitiful to read about.

Sue wrote: "Ken, did you read ‘The Lord of the Flies’ too? I remember that being on the list.

I’ve read A Moveable Feast, which I really liked, and The Sun Also Rises, which I recall feeling somewhat indiffer..."

Good pick-up, Sue. Lord of the Flies was definitely in the mix.

Weirdly, I recall LOVING that book in high school, yet I never returned to it. It's one of those books of yore I prefer keeping on the "Books of Yore" shelf and looking at proudly. Reading it again might precipitate its fall. You know, from the Books of Yore shelf (which, by the way, hasn't been dusted in ages... and Lord, I hate dusting).

Lord of the Flies was a twice read for me. I loved it too. Another book for the school reading shelf, at least for me, was Darkness at Noon by Arthur Koestler.

Oh yes, Darkness at Noon definitely.

My teacher didn’t hand out Catcher in the Rye or Of Mice and Men. I borrowed both from University of Wisconsin professors. Luckily I babysat back in the early 1960s. My mother didn’t approve of me reading after my 9 p.m. bedtime, but I read Salinger by flashlight under my blankets.

Nothing sells books like banning them. Ask Mark Twain. The expression "Banned in Boston" came from the Brahmins of Boston banning Huck Finn (which immediately sent sales through the proverbial roof).

We did not have to read Darkness at Noon. Is it nonfiction? Seems we skipped nonfiction -- book-lengthed, at least.

When I worked at a small bookstore in a small town years ago, a teenager came in for a copy of The Catcher in the Rye. He was unenthusiastic and said he probably would just do the Cliff Notes, but he needed a copy for class. I told him that the language in the book was so bad that I had to sneak-read it when I was a teen, and I couldn't believe they were now assigning it. His face brightened and he left the store with his nose buried in the book. Success!

Diane wrote: "When I worked at a small bookstore in a small town years ago, a teenager came in for a copy of The Catcher in the Rye. He was unenthusiastic and said he probably would just do the Cliff Notes, but ..."

In a similar vein, Diane, I had to teach Catcher and was shocked -- SHOCKED -- to find the vast majority of my students hated it and claimed that Holden was nothing but a whiner.

The next year, I thought like you (and the Brahmins of Boring Boston). I researched the history of the book, the reasons it was banned in some places, and started THERE, talking about language, "sex" scenes, and school boards wanting to ensure that no teenager laid eyes on it.

Catnip! That year they liked it much better, though they were amazed at how "harmless" the language and sex scenes were compared to modern times.

Teaching, like writing, is nothing but recalculating (call the GPS people!).

Excellent stories, Diane and Ken. I have more than a few too. Yes, there should be a required education course for future English teachers titled “The Psychology of Teaching Literature.”

Or learning to manipulate those young minds into wanting to learn.

Ken wrote: "No matter where you grew up and went to high school, you probably read a lot of the same books ..."

In the USA perhaps? The only ones I read at school from your list were all the 4 William Shakespeares. Even Charles Dickens was not considered literary enough to study (although we did read one of those in the holidays, as a "home reader" - i.e. never examined on).

Oh, and I still don't recognise one of them! :D Sounds as though Nick's school had a wider remit.

My entire generation have read Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men, that is the book in English classes at the moment. I did Shakespeare's The Tempest and Titus Andronicus. My brother did Animal Farm, but sadly I did not. I'm a big Orwell fan. In later years, I studied a lot more, but school was somewhat lacking on the novel front. We also studied Tennyson and some Priestley plays.

I always find that so ironic that we in U.S. were reading a Dickens every year and in the U.K. he wasn't considered literary enough to teach.

LOL Sara! But you see what happened to me (maybe just counter-suggestible?)

Now Matthew's experience sounds more familiar :)

I feel like I missed quite a bit when it comes to reading classics in high school. The ones we did read though have made a lasting impression.

I hated The Catcher in the Rye, but remember loving Macbeth and Antigone, Didn't read a word of Steinbeck OR Dickens! We did read The Great Gatsby and my friend from that time and I still quote it. (She sent me a paperback once with all of our favorite lines highlighted.) That same friend dressed up as Hester Prynne for Halloween after we read The Scarlet Letter.

Kathleen wrote: "I feel like I missed quite a bit when it comes to reading classics in high school. The ones we did read though have made a lasting impression.

I hated The Catcher in the Rye, but remem..."


Thanks for reminding me about Gatsby. We read that, too.

Some of these books win favor due to their brevity. Thus the new popularity of Steinbeck's short novel Of Mice and Men and Orwell's Animal Farm (neither of which were read back in my day).

I can't understand why we were forced to read Dickens' Tale of Two Cities. I read a lot of Dickens on my own as a college and post-collegiate guy, and that's probably the worst Dickens novel I read.

We read a lot of Hawthorne's short stories, too, probably because they tied in with the Colonial American History being taught across the hall. All the Puritan stories like "Young Goodman Brown" and "The Maypole of Merrymount" and "Dr. Heidegger's Experiment" and "My Kinsman Major Molineaux" and "The Minister's Black Veil."

Speaking of Hawthorne, I read only recently that Herman Melville had a man crush on him (Hawthorne being a good-looker in younger and mid-age days, apparently). It got so bad that Nat made a point of sending regrets for Melville invites after that.

Literary Gossip for $800, Alex. (Or Alex's guest host of the moment.)

Kathleen wrote: "I feel like I missed quite a bit when it comes to reading classics in high school. The ones we did read though have made a lasting impression.

I hated The Catcher in the Rye, but remem..."

Yes those were the old standbys. David Copperfield also. I vaguely remember being able to choose some books on my own. I read lots of Steinbeck.

I still haven’t read any Steinbeck though I have intended to for some time. I do remember reading a bit of John (J.P.) Marquand after high school I think. Authors that aren’t read anymore. Other names are just beyond my memory’s reach at the moment but I will return if the names do.

I can't imagine David Copperfield being assigned in high school. Way too long.

In fact, by the time I reached h.s., a veteran teacher said they had given up on teaching Moby Dick and so taught instead Billy Budd, which all of us loathed because we were way too young to see what Melville was about. I have since returned to it and learned to appreciate it more.

As for Steinbeck, I still want to read Tortilla Flat and Cannery Row. Why do I keep putting it off?

Tortilla Flat and Cannery Row are wonderfully comic. The Monterey novels are a joy to read. Steinbeck used to be my favorite author and I've read most of his work, though he wasn't taught in high school. We did read a lot of Dickens though, back in the day when considering what students liked and the length of books was not considered important. I loved the bigger books.
Sue, I am amazed that you have never read Steinbeck!

For Diane and all other Steinbeck fans.

You can now bid on John's little fishing shed on Long Island because it's up for sale!

Ha! It's tempting. Maybe if they'd drop the price to 15 million I might consider it. Not exactly what I'd call a shed.