Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

@Amanda, I didnt think about her being possessive of Emira when Kelly grabbed her waist (good call). I thought she was wishing Kelly's hands were on her waist

Regarding the mom comment and favoritism that’s made, I’ll have to read more of the book it seems. I made my comment before really digging in so I haven’t picked up on the favoritism yet.

@Wanda - I appreciate your honesty. Parenting is hard, we're all trying our best. I agree with Sean that the big issue was that Alix always made Briar secondary. I also noticed that she always apologized for her behavior when her behavior was "normal" for a 3-year-old. I also agree with Melanie about the bad decisions that the characters make in this book. Alix made a lot of bad decisions.

@Amanda - literally, took the words out of my mouth. (Thanksgiving dinner)

I think Alix's "love" for Emira and Kelley came from fantasy and where she wanted total control. Like how she wanted that night at her parent's house with Kelley to be perfect. Just like how she wanted Emira to be a certain way for her. Alix was triggered by the lack of control she had with Emira and Kelley which explains her obsession with both of them. I also don't blame Alix for being still in love/infatuated with Kelley. Haven't we all been still infatuated or curious to know where our first crush or love is now? Plus, that break up line did not help at all. Not excusing Alix's choices/behaviors or anything, haha.

A continual thought of having a real job came up in this story. Emira felt if she had a real job she wouldnt have been in that store on that night. Should she be defining herself as being an adult by having her own insurance and purchasing adult things. Is she too concerned with measuring herself by what her friends have, what her siblings have done, etc?

@triciasean So glad you bring this up. This was one of the things that made the book really special to me. it really challenged my concept and values towards child care labour and shone a light on how undervalued it is. It's a continual offense how poorly valued the "industry"is, one that is mostly woman and extraordinarily non-white.
Thanks for the moms here sharing their real thoughts and feelings. I love it and always feel really honoured when parents share the hard parts of parenting that can be awkward or uncomfortable to divulge.

Currently listening to this recent episode of Codeswitch "What's in a Karen?" in which Reid is interviewed. No overt spoilers but might inform your view of some characters.
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/14/891177...

I like Code Switch... I listen to it during jogs

I just listened. Personally, I would prefer to call these people Carolyn instead of Karen after Carolyn Bryant (see Emmitt Till).

I couldn't understand why she thought having health insurance meant she was a real adult. I guess there's always something to which people tend to pin their happiness to i.e. when I buy house, when I get married, when I have kids. I guess health insurance was her thing. I think it's normal for her to compare her life to her friends' lives especially at that age there's a lot of pressure. It's time to prove that the choices you made up until that point have started you down the right path. I think all recent graduates have this insecurity until they figure things out.

Thanks for sharing @tinaathena I listened to the podcast and found some comments interesting like when they referred to Alix, Kelley and Tamra as types of Karens. I don't think I thought about them this way but they do fit the description.

I honestly dont see Kelly as a Karen, not that a man couldn't be. I don't believe Kelly video taped Emira to control her, but to help her. He did not know her. If anything, he may have wanted to do it to bolster himself as an ally and friend of blacks, much like Alix counting the number of blacks at her Thanksgiving table. Thats problematic but I dont see the intent to control.

I just finished the chapter where Kelley is recounting the story of his brother’s love of Moesha, and mentions someone calling it “n***a sh*!”. WHOA. Why was Emira’s first reaction not at the very least “Why are you so comfortable using that word unfiltered?” Then she sleeps with him anyway?! OMG.

Another thing I’m noticing about myself while reading this is how far removed from the generation under me I seem to be. A specific example is how she slept with Kelley after only the second time meeting him casually. Is this common now in one’s 20s? No shame, but I was surprised by it. It seems the younger generation sees sex as merely physical release between two people. There seemed to be a whole lot more thought before doing it with someone “back in my day.” Not saying it’s for better or worse, only different. Interesting.

@Wanda I had these same exact thoughts!

Ok.
1. I gave great pause to the pass Emira gave Kelly. Maybe she did because he was re-telling someone else's words. I would like to think I wouldve hit the pause button on the conversation...
2. Liberation for women means , a women shouldn't be held to a hire bar of purity or chastity. The younger generation is one that says women have desires like men do can fulfill them without additional judgement that we wouldn't afford a man. I'm 50, and remember even in my 20s people were casually sexual then. Its more pervasive now because there is less of a stigma. It's scary because my oldest is 20. I have taught her to be responsible and can only pray for the best now. She is a strong, intelligent, talented woman now!

Someone asked about seeing the similarities between Alix in this novel and Corrine from The Water Dancer. The most glaring similarity to me is that they seem to want to help Black people not out of the willingness to want to help another human being, but to prove they aren’t one of the problematic Whites. They still don’t see Black people as humans. Their acts of kindness or helpfulness of winning one over assuage their White guilt. The Black people in their sights are merely conduits for the relief.

re: sex on a second date. A friend of mine who is in her mid-60s (I am mid-30's) said that it wasn't that abnormal to hook up after a second date, just nobody talked about it. Within my peer group, I'd say this is entirely normal.
re: Kelley=Karen. I think a lot of Karens are not malicious, in fact as discussed on that ep of Codeswitch, lots of them are progressive/liberal, well-meaning people with the "best of intentions." I think the line he crosses is when Emira makes it clear she doesn't want to be filmed but continues to do so despite her requests, ignorant to the risks it puts her in (real or perceived).
re: Health Insurance. I had a similar complex about adulthood and careers. working a 9-5 and not in customer service were milestones of adulthood I was really stuck on and feel a bit silly for now (especially in a pandemic)

@Wanda re: Alix/Corinne, my thoughts exactly!!

Now the entire book is open for discussion

@tinaathena, on page 228... Kellybtells Alix when she confronts him about "her sitter" (possesion all over it) Do you hear yourself? On page 401 of the Water Dancer, Hiriam asked Corinne when she spoke of "her agents" (possession all over it) Do you hear yourself?
What does it say about possessiveness and power wielding of these characters?

tinaathena wrote: "re: Kelley=Karen. I think a lot of Karens are not malicious, in fact as discussed on that ep of Codeswitch, lots of them are progressive/liberal, well-meaning people with the "best of intentions." I think the line he crosses is when Emira makes it clear she doesn't want to be filmed but continues to do so despite her requests, ignorant to the risks it puts her in (real or perceived).."

Thank you very much Beverly and tinaathena for the shared interview and the podcast!

Yes, agree ... it seemed to me like he wanted to push forward no matter what and didn't respect Emira`s decision.

I guess I am thinking from the vantage point of myself. If I was in a bind like that, I would want it recorded because for some people our words dont matter, they need proof if what happened. Kelly never release the video, so he obviously respects Emira's wishes. He also erased it from his phone he said he would... he gave it to her. I serious believe he did not think about the send folder. I would not have.

Tricia wrote: "I guess I am thinking from the vantage point of myself. If I was in a bind like that, I would want it recorded because for some people our words dont matter, they need proof if what happened. Kelly..."

I see.

Thank you Tina for the podcast link. Definitely interesting and I agree with Sean, it should be changed to Carolyn rather than Karen.

I definitely see similarities between Alix and Corrine from The Water Dancer as well! Both Alix and Corrine were very possessive and used their power or rather their status to further their own egos. I think for both of them helping black people was really more self-serving than anything.

As much as Kelley made me question his intentions. The one part of the book that changed it for me was after the Thanksgiving dinner. I liked how he handled the situation in his apartment after they left the bar and had their argument. Instead of being defensive he listened to Emira and it seemed like a learning lesson for him. Yes, he did record her after she requested not to but like Sean said, he did erase it and never released it.

What I can't seem to wrap my head around is Alix accusing Kelley of showing that letter in high school to Robbie when she actually found the letter lost in the locker. If she knew all along that he never received or showed the letter to Robbie, than why did she accuse him for so long? Was the letter symbolic of her insecurities? Any thoughts?

I think if she wrote the letter, and it was her call to call the police and Kelly did share that letter which would have made him responsible for Robbie being there... then the responsibility all fall on her. In he mind, she could not be the one who did wrong. It was her parents, it was Kelly, it was Robbie, it was the security guard, it was Peter's on air comment, it Emira and how she was dressed...
She had told the lie so much that she decided to believe it as "her truth". That was a twist.
@Lotty what did you think of her telling Kelly if Emira had a uniform she would not have had trouble?

Ah I see, I guess I missed that somehow. The more I think about Alix, the more she reminds me of someone who has borderline personality disorder.

That entire conversation between her and Kelley was very telling. It just revealed Alix's true feelings and validated the whole uniform thing. Which I found to be disturbing in my opinion. Yes, Emira wore the polo to not get paint on it but it should have been that one time.

What does the title mean, Such A Fun Age?

The uniform that Emira wore (forced to wear?), the polo-initialed one, was brought up several times. Was that the author showing control by Alix?

ColumbusReads wrote: "What does the title mean, Such A Fun Age?"

I am not sure, curious what you all have to say. All the white people in the book make everything about race while Emira just want health insure and a 'real' job. She is 25 and didn't really want a career but feels the pressure and fear not getting a job. Emira didn't find a passion of her own yet but struggles financially so she has to keep her part time babysitter job and her second job as a typist. So what financially privileged people call a fun age to 'find' yourself, being able to see foreign countries or to enjoy youth seems not to be funny at all.
On the other hand the novel is set up in 2016 during the Hilary Clinton campaign – and what Angela Davis calls the white mainstream feminism started to explode – maybe the title points at this kind of age.

I think the title Such a Fun Age could reference a slew of themes regarding where the characters are in their lives related to how old they are. The main reference I think it is making is about Emira’s age. She’s at the quarter life crisis point. All of her friends are doing adult things—professional careers or grad school, making enough money independently to have their own health insurance and jobs with an office. The book mentions many times how the relationship with Kelley feels like her first “adult” relationship. Not just a fling or a casual boyfriend you know one day you’ll break up with because it’s not that serious, but the one that makes you think about going half on a baby or combining finances. The one you are literally risking a future on. She knows she needs a better job, but doesn’t know what she wants to do which is scary because it feels like that’s the time where you need to make a choice that sets you up on the course of your professional career. One can’t afford to be ambivalent anymore or risk life leaving them behind. It’s tongue and cheek because that age is not in fact a fun one!



The m

Regarding race relations, the White people (mainly Alix) seemed way more invested in making sure they were doing right by Emira when she wasn’t asking them to do anything. Were they fueled by White guilt? She’s trying to figure herself out and Alix is popping up with the White savior complex. There are parts on this book where Alix borders on mentally unwell.

Honestly, so far, I like Kelley. I think we are looking for ways he is problematic. Other than him saying the N word with no filter, I haven’t necessarily seen anything. However, I’m about 70% done so I may eat my words by the end of the book. I hope not!

Tamra really annoys me. To me she represents bougie Black people who think they are better than other Black people and turn their noses up. They’ve bought into White supremacy and their accomplishments and successes mean little unless validated by White society. They measure other Black people’s successes by whether or not White people would approve as well.

@wanda, nice. I also think it's an age where you can redefine yourself even after that video. Personally , professionally you feel like you should be finished Becoming (shout out to Michelle Obama) but you have time. There is pressure, but when looks back on thier mid 20s it's usually some great stories... even the bad stuff.

@Tricia/Sean, agreed! In my mid twenties, I was very much where Emira was. I got it together, but it took time for sure. You don’t have that knowledge when you’re in the muck though because the concept of time isn’t the same as decades of your life pass by.

I think we all measure ourselves against our peers whether the workplace, friends, relatives. The comparative self allows us to gauge so many things internal and external. The challenge is ‘what are’ the value propositions we chose to measure our self worth

Another comment here had mentioned the absence of a central Black male character. What would one have brought to the story? Where would he have fit in?

Another question, was Alex in the wrong for calling the cops and should she have been to blame for the trouble Robbie got in?

Wanda wrote: "Another thing I’m noticing about myself while reading this is how far removed from the generation under me I seem to be. A specific example is how she slept with Kelley after only the second time meeting him casually. Is this common now in one’s 20s? No shame, but I was surprised by it. It seems the younger generation sees sex as merely physical release between two people. There seemed to be a whole lot more thought before doing it with someone “back in my day.” Not saying it’s for better or worse, only different. Interesting"

This is interesting because it's the opposite for me. What surprised me more than casual sex soon after they meet, was that they seemed to progress very quickly to a more 'serious' relationship. They met in September at the grocery store, and by thanksgiving in November they were talking about maybe being in love and imagining a future together. That's only 3 months!

Maybe it's my cultural background or just my personality or something, but I think americans move way too quickly in terms of commitment not physical intimacy, contrary to what people usually think. I would very much sleep with someone on a first date, but thinking of building a life together would take me a lot longer than a few months.

Not at all trying to say that these relationships wouldn't work out in real life! They do very often! But their 'more than like' status seemed more hasty than the casual sex to me, when they don't even know each other that well (as becomes evident later).

@Wanda, I was on of the people who made comment about the absence of any significant black male character. I'm not sure how this writer would have used him but it seems since Emira's social circle was predominantly black and she was in Philly, that some black man would have fit the setting. If you can write a story about racism and black people and have no meaningful black man... my mind will pause for that.

Alix couldve told them to leave or even asked her care taker to do so. Robbie and the friends did not belong. But, as we have learned, adding the police to the equation can ruin or even take lives.

tinaathena wrote: "Currently listening to this recent episode of Codeswitch "What's in a Karen?" in which Reid is interviewed. No overt spoilers but might inform your view of some characters.
https://www.npr.org/2020..."

Thank you for the podcast! They make a really important point about overt racism that's easy to catch on camera, and the more insidious implicit bias that's much harder to fight.

I was disappointed after finishing the book by how it evolves and the way in which it was structured. I was expecting more subtlety and nuance and it seemed to just keep getting more and more melodramatic to the point where, like Wanda says, Alix seems mentally unwell.

I know people are still reading so I'll hold off on sharing some thoughts so I don't colour their experience of it.

Ray wrote: "I think we all measure ourselves against our peers whether the workplace, friends, relatives. The comparative self allows us to gauge so many things internal and external. The challenge is ‘what ar..."

I saw a list somewhere (fb, twitter) that was about things that identify a person as uniquely American. Because of the source YMMV. Anyways one of the things listed was that American's will always ask what someone does for a living. Apparently in Europe etc, it isn't a part of casual/initial conversation. I bring this up to say that what a person does in America is part of who they are. It defines you. Emira was uncomfortable w/ her status as a babysitter. She wasn't uncomfortable with the job, just the status. I know I've seen up thread that some have expressed that Emira wasn't wasn't very well characterized. I think that is part of the brilliance of the book. She doesn't know who she is so it can't be easily described. Yet through this journey, we are finding out who she is, it's just being described differently than how she looks and what she does for a living.

I read this so fast that I wanted to hold back until the full book was up for discussion. I found myself hyper focused on assimilation throughout this book.

Regarding being filmed without consent, does Kelleys “intent” to help absolve him of the added layer of stress for Emira to perform assimilation while on camera and her fear when she has a lapse in this performance? Does his continual push for her to fight back, then later for her to leave her job speak to his own savior complex and his lack of understanding of the very different circumstances for a white man challenging the system vs. a young black woman? What does his dismissal of Emiras agency say about his respect for her as an individual?

Regarding Alix as controlling, do you think she obsesses over Emira in part because Emira and Briar have such a close relationship, then when she finds out about Kelley she has to process this another time? Do you think she pushes an assimilation narrative when she forces an open bottle of wine, old pantry items “better than anything you can get” and the whole inner dialog when she is in Emiras home?

Regarding Tamra and assimilation, does her role as an educator make her actions more problematic (shaming Emiras hair, strictness with her own children, insistence that Emira needs them to be shown the way to live?) Since she is in a position of power over (I assume some black youth) does this change the weight of her unsolicited advice?

Our very own, Rosalie Morales Kearns, was interviewed by the New York Writers Institute, and she spoke highly of this discussion. See for yourself....

https://www.nyswritersinstitute.org/p...

Really enjoying this discussion, and now that it's open for the whole book, I'll jump in without worrying about spoilers.

One of the things that struck me about Alix, which others have already described, is how she seemed so attuned to how her actions look to others, so eager to be SEEN as a non-racist White person (whether or not she really IS).

Also it was kind of hilarious that Alix's whole "brand" is based on the fact that she gets free stuff just by asking for it, and that she EXPECTS to get it and feels entitled to it—such a perfect portrait of entitlement/privilege. And I loved how she expected Emira to know all about her Instagram account.

(Columbus, thanks for the shout-out!)

Great interview, Rosalie! (I’m looking up the books you mentioned.)

Lata wrote: "Great interview, Rosalie! (I’m looking up the books you mentioned.)"

Thanks, Lata!

@Rosalie, I think that is telling, not just in how it tells so much about who Alix is, but I remember when I first read this thinking... Who would even think of a hustle like this?

Did everyone enjoy how the book ended? I really really loved the last paragraph of the book.

It was a nice open ended statement. It would be my prediction for Briar too. Alix grew up with a black nanny and that was Briar's life.
At 49, I find I'm so much like my father. We all are products of our upbringing. Yet, we have the power to veer down our own path

Could someone remind me what the last paragraph was (paraphrasing or quoting)?

I thought it was such a great twist when we learn that Alix has deliberately misremembered what happened with the letter to Kelley. As someone else pointed out much earlier in the thread, Alix makes sure that in the stories she tells herself, she's never the one to blame.

Also: I love the way the author portrays the interaction between Emira and Briar. Such a sweet connection they have!

Lotty wrote: "Did everyone enjoy how the book ended? I really really loved the last paragraph of the book."

I considered it a satisfying ending. If nothing else, realistic. No one's life changed in an epic way. It was an experience they all had, and then they do what people do...keep living. I was glad Emire and Kelley did not end up together although I do think she at least owed him an apology for accusing him of posting the video. If there was any reason to break up with him, it would be his unfiltered use of the n- word, even if it was in context of a story (yes, I'm still stuck on that! How is he in his 30s, been dating Black girls/women since his late teens, has Black friends, and NO ONE HAS EVER CHECKED HIM? Tuh!)

The truth about Alix knowing that Kelley wasn't responsible for Robbie getting her letter I think is meant to expose Alix for who she is. She is someone who will tell herself whatever needs to be true or use whoever she needs to fit her narrative. She uses her baby as a breastfeeding stunt to promote herself, she uses Laney-a woman she doesn't like-to get Emira's video on the news, she uses Emira and Kelley's relationship to play a victim to her friends, she uses Tamra's friendship to prove she isn't racist, she doesn't seem all that passionate about her husband, but uses Peter because he's good for her brand. She used Emira's situation to promote her book after getting in trouble with her publisher and to make Peter look like he wasn't racist after the comment he made on the newscast, but lied to herself and said it's because they love Emira.

It's been interesting reading our perceptions of Alix throughout this story and comparing that with the discussions of her under a thread of a favorite reviewer of mine. Most of the responses on that thread have been from female readers who appear to be White.

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

From the reviewer, her original post:
"The only thing that was a little disappointing was the way it ended. [Alix was such a complex, flawed and misguided character throughout, so it was a shame to see the ending destroy her characterization. Especially the flashback where she discovered the letter and decided to lie about it. I thought it was smarter, and truer, to paint her as someone who thought she was helping even when she was being selfish. It weakened the story's power when she was reduced to a scheming villain, in my opinion."

Thanks Wanda. I follow Emily's reviews as well and I agree with that. By the end of the book Alix was almost cartoonishly racist. Similar to what they said on Codeswitch, it is too easy to distance oneself from overt racism like Alix's, and fail to address one's own bias. I am disappointed by the way the letters were handled. There were a lot of silly inconsistencies (the letters were unopened, if Kelley didn't receive more than one why didn't he ever mention it to Alix, Kelley's lockers and Robbie's lockers would not have been placed together etc) that made it seem it wasn't as well thought out as the rest of the novel.

I was rolling my eyes at the ending. It was very convenient that Emira was able to have a glimpse of both Alix and Kelley without being observed herself, almost like montage at the end of a movie to neatly wrap things up. I talked in my own review about how Such A Fun Age seemed to evolve very much like a soap opera or tv show. It's no surprise that it's now being adapted for TV by Lena Waithe, it almost seems like it was written exactly for that.

I've seen more than a few comparisons to The Help, including the review Wanda linked. Did anyone see a resemblance between the two books?

The book read like a movie and ended like a movie that is a tight 90 minutes, which I am a big fan of. I liked the ending for that reason, it felt true to the general ambiance of the story.

Lakshmi wrote: "Thanks Wanda. I follow Emily's reviews as well and I agree with that. By the end of the book Alix was almost cartoonishly racist. Similar to what they said on Codeswitch, it is too easy to distance..."

I agree very much it was written like the author wanted it adapted for a movie. For me that helped me visualize. I was casting roles and everything. Probably wasn't doing a great job b/c I don't know who any of the young actors and actresses are these days. Zendaya? She's all I know, LOL.

I saw resemblances between the two books for sure, but the biggest difference is Emira was making a choice to work for Alix's family. She could have found something way better, but lacked a lot of motivation in my opinion. Emira didn't want or need Alix to use her journalistic resources to expose anyone or anything. Aibileen in "The Help" didn't have the choice of telling her boss to shove it because she was in fear and she really needed the job. Also, she welcomed exposure in how they were being treated. If the characters were loosely related, it's like Aibileen went through what she went through so that Emira wouldn't have to...and Emira is so ungrateful.