Reading 1001 discussion

Discussion thread.

I"m about 30% in with this, so I expect to be finished by the 1st. I'll post questions after I am done.

Review thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I will try to join in on this one.

Kelly_Hunsaker_reads wrote: "I will try to join in on this one."

Oh good! It's not long, and definitely readable.

I quite like this quote from the article that follows:

'For Waugh, the heart of darkness, the savage core of man's being, is revealed to be not brutal barbarism but the sentimental pieties of culture."

The article...... (it's an academic analysis).
https://www.montclair.edu/profilepage...

I've made up some questions of my own, and gleaned the odd one from various sources:

1. This was my first Waugh novel. He was a very prolific writer, and (apparently) his style changed when he converted to Catholicism. This novel is an early one, he would go on to write 10 novels after this. Have you read others of his? If so, have you noticed differences in style or tone?

2. What do think Beaver’s appeal to Brenda was?

3. Are any of the character’s likeable, or at minimum sympathetic? Is this important to you as a reader?

4. What is your opinion of Brenda’s reaction to the climatic event?

5. What is your opinion of the final scenes (Tony in South America)? This part of the novel is quite a talking point for critics and readers.

6. The quote in post 6 really summed up the novel for me. What is your reaction to this summation?

7. In case you’ve read both BOTM….. When I saw that West’s and Waugh’s novels were chosen for July’s BOTM I thought they were very good companion choices – they are both biting (bitter??!) commentaries on upper class society and their expectations (of behaviour). West praised ‘A Handful of Dust’. What do you think?

Just finished this week! It was good, but wasn’t my absolute favorite by Waugh (Brideshead Revisited is still winning that one for me). For the questions:

1. I’ve read a bunch of his books. Off of the list I’ve read “Helena” (post conversion, about Emperor Constantine’s titular mother’s own conversion), and on the list I’ve read Brideshead Revisited, Vile bodies, and Decline and Fall. The latter was written pre-conversion, and I found to be lighter and more frivolous and about society as opposed to existential things compared to the others (but, his cheekiness is in some part in all of the books). Brideshead was by far the most somber, and is one of my favorite books of all time (the last part of Vile bodies takes an abrupt tonal dive too though- also a great book).

2. This part I didn’t really feel while reading- but maybe that’s part of it. It’s the idea of leaving her dull life with Tony in a dramatic way itself maybe appealed more than anything about Beaver as a person.

3. Not really in this book, I mean I felt very bad for Tony at the end after being played for a chump by pretty much everyone, but the main characters being dull hollow people that you don’t latch unto throughout seems to be part of the aim of the book.

4. Horrific but kind of funny? Very classic Waugh in that respect. It really did convey how deeply vapid and unempathetic she is.

5. I found this just such an abrupt switch in setting, tone, content, etc that it was kind of weird and not seamless. It was successfully creepy to me though in a “twilight zone episode with the glasses guy and his library” kind of way.

6. “ For Waugh, the heart of darkness, the savage core of man's being, is revealed to be not brutal barbarism but the sentimental pieties of culture.- I like that quote! I definitely plays into the book. Mrs. Dalloway also works this angle (I had to write a compare and contrast for Mrs. Dalloway and Heart of Darkness once, so this was the angle I took with it).

7. I’ve read the other BOTM years ago now and really liked it. They do both get at the downfall of the gentry of the time, related to an inability to come to terms with or reasonably treat trauma or upheaval.

Overall, while I did like this book and give it 3 stars, and respect what Waugh was getting at, it was a little flat then disjointed. I got it and liked it but I didn’t 100% buy it.

1. This was my first Waugh novel. He was a very prolific writer, and (apparently) his style changed when he converted to Catholicism. This novel is an early one, he would go on to write 10 novels after this. Have you read others of his? If so, have you noticed differences in style or tone?

This is my first Waugh novel, and I enjoyed very much.

2. What do think Beaver’s appeal to Brenda was?

Probably her position in society, her financing his meals and life-style...

3. Are any of the character’s likeable, or at minimum sympathetic? Is this important to you as a reader?

I did like Tony. He turns out to be a pathethic sad husband, who has lost everything he cared for, but still hopes and cares of Brenda after all.

4. What is your opinion of Brenda’s reaction to the climatic event?

Well, I thought she would be emotionless or something like that. But I must admit that her reaction was beyond all my expectations. Just unbelievable.

5. What is your opinion of the final scenes (Tony in South America)? This part of the novel is quite a talking point for critics and readers.

Not sure about this one. I wished for Tony to be saved, but final chapter made me feel it was a good ending after all.

6. The quote in post 6 really summed up the novel for me. What is your reaction to this summation?


'For Waugh, the heart of darkness, the savage core of man's being, is revealed to be not brutal barbarism but the sentimental pieties of culture." - oh, yes! That is a good quote. It also reminded me of the Amok by Zweig, our BOTM February this year.

7. In case you’ve read both BOTM….. When I saw that West’s and Waugh’s novels were chosen for July’s BOTM I thought they were very good companion choices – they are both biting (bitter??!) commentaries on upper class society and their expectations (of behaviour). West praised ‘A Handful of Dust’. What do you think?

I read Return of the Soldier last year and really enjoyed it. It didn't feel that much as a critizism of society compared to A Handful of Dust, which is more cynical, but I can see a connection. Return of the Soldier turned out be me more emotional for me.
Still, I liked A Handful of Dust also very much.

Now that a couple of people have posted, I'll add this about Brenda. In one of the book club blog posts I came across (about this novel) they noted that she was one of the characters chosen (by readers? or other academics?) to be the worst Mother ever, or at least a very strong contender!

Amanda wrote: "Just finished this week! It was good, but wasn’t my absolute favorite by Waugh (Brideshead Revisited is still winning that one for me). For the questions:

2. This part I didn’t really feel while reading- but maybe that’s part of it. It’s the idea of leaving her dull life with Tony in a dramatic way itself maybe appealed more than anything about Beaver as a person.


I agree. I didn't get Beaver's attraction. Your analysis is a good one. I also wondered if choosing someone so completely wrong was the appeal. She didn't want someone who she may fall in love with and want to marry. I also think she liked that (generally) Beaver was very malleable. One thing I did enjoy was the sudden 'street cred' Beaver got by being Brenda's boy toy.

1. I first read Brideshead Revisited which is from his Catholic period and was written about Catholic aristocracy. I read Decline and Fall, which was his first novel, 4 years ago and thought it very funny, quite different in style. This one is somewhere between the two. The light, satirical beginning is more like Decline and Fall, although less absurd and therefore less laugh out loud funny, and more detached and cool, much like the characters.
2. I think that he was novelty value. It amused Brenda that his social status improved even though he was quite unsuitable.
3. It is not important to me that characters need to be likeable, often the most interesting books have no likeable characters, but I found great sympathy for Tony. The way he was fooled by Brenda but continued to think the best of her until it was quite irrefutable that she was irremediably shallow and disloyal gained my sympathy.
4. I am not sure what is meant by the climatic event? If it was John Andrew's death, then her reaction revealed that she had no love for her son but a surprisingly strong feeling for John Beaver.
5. It was certainly a change in tone. I was expecting Tony to show more resourcefulness and escape home to confront Brenda and tie the ending up neatly. As it was it seemed to undermine the satire of the privileged lifestyle of Brenda's clique with a link to the Victorianism of Tony's attitudes. But how deliciious the irony of Tony being doomed to keep re-reading Dickens, the arch Victorian!
6. Well, it was a very specific culture that of between-wars England. I did love the quote in your article "Life was 'nasty British and short'" to misquote Hobbes.
7. I agree with Tatjana that the intent of the books was different and Dust was written long after TROTS. The common thread was the life of a privileged strata of society.

Pip wrote: "1. I first read Brideshead Revisited which is from his Catholic period and was written about Catholic aristocracy. I read Decline and Fall, which was his first novel, 4 years ago and thought it ver..."



Yes Pip, I was referring to John Andrew's death in question 4. I didn't want to put a very bad spoiler in the question, in case someone was reviewing the questions before they got to that part.

I'm glad Pip mentioned the minister and his sermons in her review. I also particularly enjoyed this part of the novel - more than likely because it fits in with my view of religion. ha, ha.

I finished the book today and found it very readable. I am presently digesting it now.
1. This is my third Waugh, having read Brideshead Revisited and Vile Bodies. I think this is my favorite of the 3 books. I think all 3 are different but Brideshead was probably one he wrote after turning Catholic.
2. Beaver's appeal was that he represented London and the lack of responsibility except to accept invitations to parties. He also never fully fell for Brenda, he was a bit allusive.
3. I disliked Brenda and her willingness to leave her son and party in London, destroy her marriage and not feel any responsibility for what she did. I didn't really dislike any of the rest as much as I did her. The rest were interesting, sometimes funny, sometimes pathetic.
4. I thought her reaction was really disgusting. To think of her lover over her own child just did not seem right.
5. Tony goes from one self centered person to the next. I thought it was odd that Tony became the explorer. It seemed out of character. I wonder if exploring Amazon was a thing back then. I do know that exploring it was a very dangerous thing to do. I read a nonfiction book about Teddy Roosevelt's Amazon trip. In looking at the list of books written by Waugh, he authored some travel books. In Ninety Two Days: A Journey In Guiana And Brazil, 1932 makes similar remarks of disappointment and losses. Tony is looking for renewal and self fulfillment only to experience a second disillusionment.
6. ...a good quote. I enjoyed the fact that Waugh makes literary references to The Waste Land, The Heart of Darkness, Proust, and Dickens.
7. I read both books this month and enjoyed reading them both. I can see the similarities of loss dreams and lost England. In West, we have the aristocratic women living in their estate, clinging to the past life and in Waugh we have Tony clinging but also losing that hold. I think it is also a bit congruous that i am also reading Oliver Twist (Dickens novel) which addresses social status issues of Victorian England.

1. This is my first Waugh novel also.

2. What do think Beaver’s appeal to Brenda was?

As others have mentioned, he represented everything that her husband was not and he appeared to be an escape from her provincial life. Brenda seemed to find Beaver handsome and also, he was not committed to an estate nor did he have any obligation to any community but the club and luncheon crowd in which he was a faithful fill in when someone else canceled. He was also lacking loyalty, except to his mother, and not easily "trained", which she may have seen as a challenge.

3. Are any of the character’s likeable, or at minimum sympathetic? Is this important to you as a reader?

I do find that I prefer characters that are at least sympathetic if it is a long book that I am sending a lot of time in, but it is certainly not a requirement. The Kindly Ones comes to mind; a long long book without sympathetic characters which I never the less appreciated. I was sympathetic to John Andrew and rather peeved at the author for arousing that emotion in me when it seemed clear from the introduction of Thunderclap that he would not last the entire story. I was somewhat sympathetic to Tony, but again, it was largely what the author wanted of me as he was only "good" in relationship to how monstrous Brenda and Mr Todd were.

4. What is your opinion of Brenda’s reaction to the climatic event?

It made me wonder how misogynist the author was to write a woman so devoid of a mother's love or any degree of caring about other people's emotions. Of course, then she got her comeuppance.

5. What is your opinion of the final scenes (Tony in South America)? This part of the novel is quite a talking point for critics and readers.

I found it to be a hard right turn that did not really work for me, but as a stand alone story it was quite strong. It did seem totally out of character for Tony to go on an exploratory expedition in the jungle. From the first half of the story, his idea of adventure would seem to be climbing the nearest hilltop around his ancestral home. Again, Tony was caught by a monster that he was not capable of recognizing in the beginning, so that part was true to character.

6. The quote in post 6 really summed up the novel for me. What is your reaction to this summation?

Yes, a good quote and a good summation.

7. In case you’ve read both BOTM….. When I saw that West’s and Waugh’s novels were chosen for July’s BOTM I thought they were very good companion choices – they are both biting (bitter??!) commentaries on upper class society and their expectations (of behaviour). West praised ‘A Handful of Dust’. What do you think?

Strangely, for being published only 18 years apart they seem to be of very different eras, although they both do, as you mention, revolve around upper class society behaviors. West however captured something in the midst of breaking and called to mind some potential for positive change. The ROTS did not call for women taking to the streets but it did indicate that people's sentiments could change as slight a change as that may have been. I was left with an emotional weight, questioning and thinking after reading ROTS. Waugh on the other hand seemed to throw his hands up and declare that it was all rot....
The Buddy Read Wharton's Summer was published one year before Return of the Soldier and also addressed women's place in society but it was rural New England/American society and therefore the upper class was simply someone with "some money and a red house" rather than landed gentry.

1. This was my first Waugh novel. He was a very prolific writer, and (apparently) his style changed when he converted to Catholicism. This novel is an early one, he would go on to write 10 novels after this. Have you read others of his? If so, have you noticed differences in style or tone?

This is the first novel by Waugh I've read.

2. What do think Beaver’s appeal to Brenda was?

I agree with much of what has already been said. She thought he was completely different from her husband, yet I also think she thought he would be easy to bend to her will because of how she could improve his standing.

3. Are any of the character’s likeable, or at minimum sympathetic? Is this important to you as a reader?

I can't say that I liked any of the characters, but I did feel sympathy for Tony most of the time. I need characters, at least one or two, that appeal to me or are sympathetic in most books. I am better now at finding other ways to appreciate a book, but in general I don't enjoy a book unless I like some characters. In this case, I found it amusing enough and Tony sympathetic enough to enjoy parts, but not all of this book.

4. What is your opinion of Brenda’s reaction to the climatic event?

Shocked and although I never liked her, I completely lost any respect for her at that point.

5. What is your opinion of the final scenes (Tony in South America)? This part of the novel is quite a talking point for critics and readers.

I found it to be a strange shift and a rather unbelievable choice for his character. I expected him to just hole up at his estate and refuse visitors in order to avoid everyone. It also seemed just a little too unrealistic in the way things all worked out, although I was amused by the fact that all the man wanted was for him to read Dickens. I appreciated Pip's comment above about the choice of Dickens.

6. The quote in post 6 really summed up the novel for me. What is your reaction to this summation?

This quote seems very appropriate, and I found Tatjana's comparison to Amok interesting as well.

Daisey wrote: "1. This was my first Waugh novel. He was a very prolific writer, and (apparently) his style changed when he converted to Catholicism. This novel is an early one, he would go on to write 10 novels a..."


I feel a bit like you do - my enjoyment increases if there is at least one character I can either like or have some empathy for.

In this novel, I felt sympathy for Tony. He felt like a lost soul in some ways. He was just an ordinary (albeit privileged) man clinging to a disappearing way of life (the country gentleman). I also enjoyed Mrs Beaver. She was go-getter, who was making a living in a time that wasn't "quite the thing" for the upper class, and as a consequence was looked down upon.

In case you hadn't noted this, Waugh worked for a time as a travel writer (before WW2). One of his trips was to British Guiana (as it was called then) and Brazil. His experiences on those trips became part of this novel.

Valerie wrote: "In case you hadn't noted this, Waugh worked for a time as a travel writer (before WW2). One of his trips was to British Guiana (as it was called then) and Brazil. His experiences on those trips bec..."

I noted his travel book in my above discussion responses. He also wrote a short story about the man who reads Dickens which was added to the end of this story.

And in reading a short review, Evelyn Waugh went on a trip to Guiana "because he knew nothing of Guiana" and "is marriage had just ended.".

Kristel wrote: "Valerie wrote: "In case you hadn't noted this, Waugh worked for a time as a travel writer (before WW2). One of his trips was to British Guiana (as it was called then) and Brazil. His experiences on..."

Yes.

1. I think I have read other Waugh books but I can't remember which or anything about them which probably means that didn't really strike a chord with me however I think this one will stick with me because it was very readable and then very bizarre.

2. He was the complete opposite of Tony he had no ties and no responsibilities, he had no money or social position and yet for all that he obviously had something that appealed. It could be as simple as he made her feel young and attractive again.

3. Tony had my sympathy he really did seem to be doing his best for everyone. Trying to be a good husband and father even if it didn't always work out. I liked when he finally got a backbone and stood up for what he wanted instead of just bowing down and letting Brenda have it all.

4. I thought her reaction was awful I was expecting something different to happen but this book was totally unpredictable.

5. Totally unpredictable I never saw it coming. That section got sinister very quickly and I was hoping all the time for a different outcome.

As a final comment I am glad Tony got his own back on Brenda with the inheritance.

Book wrote: "1. I think I have read other Waugh books but I can't remember which or anything about them which probably means that didn't really strike a chord with me however I think this one will stick with me..."

Yes, me too.

1. This was my first Waugh novel. He was a very prolific writer, and (apparently) his style changed when he converted to Catholicism. This novel is an early one, he would go on to write 10 novels after this. Have you read others of his? If so, have you noticed differences in style or tone?

My first -- and I didn't really enjoy it. I kept finding myself distracted and having to back up.

2. What do think Beaver’s appeal to Brenda was?

Like others have said -- his differences from her husband. But he seemed quite relaxed and carefree and I think that is easy to be attracted to.

3. Are any of the character’s likeable, or at minimum sympathetic? Is this important to you as a reader?

No... I didn't like any of them. And though I wanted to feel sympathetic for Tony, I didn't actually feel it.

4. What is your opinion of Brenda’s reaction to the climatic event?

Ugh. It made me hate her to be honest.

5. What is your opinion of the final scenes (Tony in South America)? This part of the novel is quite a talking point for critics and readers.

Umm. It was a big surprise but not in a good way. I didn't believe it.

6. The quote in post 6 really summed up the novel for me. What is your reaction to this summation?

Interesting. I am not sure I completely understand the message though. Are we saying that our society and culture is the true barbarism? If so, I think that I agree.

7. In case you’ve read both BOTM….. When I saw that West’s and Waugh’s novels were chosen for July’s BOTM I thought they were very good companion choices – they are both biting (bitter??!) commentaries on upper class society and their expectations (of behaviour). West praised ‘A Handful of Dust’. What do you think?

I read both, and while I liked West's a bit more, I didn't love either. I think that I have discovered that I don't really love books about the high society. And I love books about the poorest among us.

Kelly_Hunsaker_reads wrote: "1. This was my first Waugh novel. He was a very prolific writer, and (apparently) his style changed when he converted to Catholicism. This novel is an early one, he would go on to write 10 novels a..."


That's funny, Kelly. I generally feel the same - I don't enjoy literature about vacuous upper class people. However, in this case I did enjoy the book.

Valerie wrote: "Kelly_Hunsaker_reads wrote: "1. This was my first Waugh novel. He was a very prolific writer, and (apparently) his style changed when he converted to Catholicism. This novel is an early one, he wou..."

For me it was 3 stars. I just couldn't fully connect

1. This was my first Waugh novel. He was a very prolific writer, and (apparently) his style changed when he converted to Catholicism. This novel is an early one, he would go on to write 10 novels after this. Have you read others of his? If so, have you noticed differences in style or tone?
I previously read Brideshead Revisited, Decline and Fall, and Vile Bodies. I did notice a difference in tone, but can't say in what ways. There is a stronger religious overtone to this book than in some of the others.

2. What do think Beaver’s appeal to Brenda was?
He was the complete opposite of her husband. She was bored and dissatisfied with her marriage and probably would have fallen for the any man who came to stay at their home.

3. Are any of the character’s likeable, or at minimum sympathetic? Is this important to you as a reader?
Most of the characters weren't likeable. I did feel some sympathy for Tony, though. As far as the importance of likeable characters, it really all depends on the book. While I prefer to have likeable characters, there have been books I have loved with completely unlikeable characters.

4. What is your opinion of Brenda’s reaction to the climatic event?
It showed her true character and messed up sense of priorities. Any possible amount of sympathy I may have held for her was completely gone at this point.

5. What is your opinion of the final scenes (Tony in South America)? This part of the novel is quite a talking point for critics and readers.
I found this part of the book odd and a departure from Tony's character. While an interesting side story, I found it an odd ending to the book.

6. The quote in post 6 really summed up the novel for me. What is your reaction to this summation?
Great quote!

Diane wrote: "1. This was my first Waugh novel. He was a very prolific writer, and (apparently) his style changed when he converted to Catholicism. This novel is an early one, he would go on to write 10 novels a..."

Good for you, Diane - getting it in under the wire! ha, ha..... Glad you got to the book.