Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion
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Thematic Approach to Classics
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First category; SocietyIt’s immediately apparent to me that my own outlook on life is defining these categories and the books assigned to them. It may, perhaps, make for a purely personal listing. For instance, Crime and Punishment and, a book that was greatly influenced by Dostoevsky, A Clockwork Orange are, subjectively, about society, because I think crime, policing and the law are reflections of the morals of each society and how that morality is forcefully projected onto its people.
So, The Mill on the Floss, is firmly implanted in my mind by George Eliot’s (didactic?) musings on scandal in local society. She uses the phrase “The world’s wife” and she discusses the idea that the religiously proper response to scandal would be charity and reconciliation; yet the entirely understandable reaction is to make a pariah of those involved. This is because contraventions of society’s moral stricture’s cannot be met in any other way. Jude the Obscure and it’s scabrous clawing at the institutions of late Victorian England helps to expose the shape of that morality. Both books, by taking this approach elevate above say Far From The Madding Crowd even if all three are essentially romances and why George Eliot and Hardy are rooted in realism and looking at the real world whilst their stories could be (merely?) romantic.
Society (continued)I had to explain Blood Meridien’s presence in this category. This horror story has settled in my mind as an explication of the principle of Manifest Destiny; of forcibly taking this land for your own. McCarthy seems to be deliberately using the grossest terms possible to do so. It’s a compelling idea that his comprehension of America was formed out of this bloodshed. James Baldwin explains the countries formation and success as taking form on the backs of slaves and examines how this shapes the country; the idea of institutional racism. I’m less comfortable that Baldwin isn’t in this category and that racism as a section of its own makes for a type of ghettoisation (and I’ve made the same unforced error with feminism).
So, America has the distinct disadvantage of having formed under the gaze of others societies, whose own misdemeanours are baked into their own souls.
That's a good idea!I think Jane Eyre should also go under Feminism. For Feminism I also suggest A Doll's House.
I agree, it belongs there. I was comparing it to Shirley but also I’ve put nearly every female author on my list in the feminism category and, naturally, feel conflicted about that; probably correctly. I would like the list to become a more universal effort but I didn’t want to suggest what others might want to do so thanks for the recommendation, which I’ll add.
Why would you feel the need to shoehorn books, let alone classics, into categories?I'm genuinely not trying to be snarky or dismissive. I've always felt the power of a book, any book, is its ability to transcend things like the artificial categories that we believe will protect our lives from inevitable chaos.
FeminismI consider the strongest portrayal to be the earliest of these; the title character Shirley. Charlotte Bronte’s leads are certainly capable and have fortitude but there’s a troubling subservience in their attitude to men; as if rudeness were a quality that attracted ladies in this age; both Rochester and the Professor are obnoxious pigs to me. Shirley possibly by virtue of her wealth and position has the freedom to choose and she does so, admirably. The feeling that I’m measuring this theme only by the gender of the author is bolstered since Shirley (then a man’s name) behaves more of a man than the men. It’s the age itself which is at fault. When it came to The Mill on the Floss, I expected it to be a less ambiguous feminist piece as Maggie stood as proxy for Evans herself but I was disappointed in (only) that regard; and Maggie’s wild intelligence was diminished and dismissed. Again it’s the age and the expectation. The haircutting episode became an act of Samson-like surrender.
Virginia Woolf has the independence of Shirley. How closely Woolf and Plath are linked by their writing; poetry as prose is mirrored thematically. My first thought was to pair Mrs Dalloway and The Bell Jar in a category either of Suicide or Mental Health but is this is an aspect of feminism; the position they are placed in as intellectuals in a male world; untenable. Ostensibly they share a privileged place but their writing examines and explains the false position.
Oh call it a clumsy but effective way of igniting thought. It works for me. I consider a comment which questions another’s desire to explore in a different direction as predictable but unnecessary. It’s a common fault of the internet but with practice it’s a curable condition😜
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Another thought...
Blazac wrote approximately 90 works in his La Comedie Humaine. He consciously wrote in a way to cover what he considered all aspects of life in France in that time period. His works are often categorized in a manner like you used.
http://www.online-literature.com/hono...
PinkieBrown, This pegging classics helps particularly those who are new readers of the classics or who want to read on topic/theme. This pegging is not for everyone all the time, but decidedly useful. When my brain freezes and cannot think of books to read a novel that has a particular theme, this list can help. As it can help many others for various reasons. Thanks for setting up this resource.
Wuthering Heights is a hole in my reading but what you wrote about Balzac reminds me of Zola’s cycle of books on French society. Zola was good enough a self-publicist to perhaps steal Balzac’s clothes. I love those books of his that examine Parisian high-low society; L’Assommoir and Nana. Again, both might be personal dramas and melodramatic but they show the shape of Paris life that he observed as an outsider.
PinkieBrown wrote: "Oh call it a clumsy but effective way of igniting thought. It works for me. I consider a comment which questions another’s desire to explore in a different direction as predictable but unnecessar..."
No, truly it wasn't meant as a criticism. I'm genuinely interested in a way of thinking about books that wouldn't have even occurred to me (I come from a family that is both educated and autodidactic, which, for generations, has held certain beliefs about books and learning that just aren't questioned because they're simply regarded as givens).
It's more about my own edification, to hopefully enhance and expand my own imagination, learning how other people think differently about things I take for granted.
Cynda; taking a sideways step and looking at a subject from a slightly different direction can generate new thoughts and interests in art in particular and you find yourself following those threads whether they are authors you like or certain periods of writing. Anything that stimulates that interest has worth so I appreciate your words. We’re in a period currently when art of all types can help us understand the major events swirling around us and I think literature might be the best of these.
PoliticsMany of these books show the effects of political realities on individuals; Germinal and working conditions in extremis, Goodbye to Berlin and The Periodic Table watch the waves of Nazism wash over the heads of people but Isherwood is explaining how great the fears of communism pushed Berlin to the opposite limit. I think Conrad’s ribald explanation of terrorism is valuable in that it describes the thinking of small men who want to have an effect on the national psyche. They never stop being small, mean minded people and it’s up to society whether it changes itself as a reaction to their petty aims. I grew up in London when a trip to the West End meant taking diversions around bomb warnings. Hitchcock’s version of this story has Londoners laughing at a blackout caused by sabotage of a power station- not the reaction the terrorists wanted. In contrast the reaction to 911 has lasted for 20 years and it is radicalising on both sides. We have just past 7/7 the anniversary of the London tube bombings and the rabid speed that people insisted on getting back to normal; how they laughed at the inept second wave bombers- London can take it, reflects Conrad’s story 100 years on. Four Lions was the modern version; finding humour in the stupidity of morons. The point being a la the blitz spirit; is your society worth preserving in the face of those who want to tear it down. This is real politics.
ReligionThe standout in this category; the exemplar is Dostoevsky’s insert “The Grand Inquisitor” in Brothers Karamazov; Jesus second coming during the Spanish Inquisition, ostensibly a tale told by an atheist. It resonates in particular when “God’s word” is brought into political discourse; the question being would Jesus endorse what the politician claims he would say on science based issues- climate change or the virus. More likely would he be silenced very quickly.
Both CS Lewis and Graham Greene have an active ongoing discussion with God about their faith through their characters. It makes it accessible and vibrant and independent of how much faith is brought to the discussion.
Where Dostoevsky ends, Bulgakov begins; as Russia, the intended atheist society(?), is confronted not by the presence of God but by the appearance of the Devil. Russian literature has the quality of that active discussion; sometimes because it is needs to be oblique about its intent and discourse about religion necessarily infers relevance which one’s own level of faith may usually deny.
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The standout in this category; the exemplar is Dostoevsky’s insert “The Grand Inquisitor” in Brothers Karamazov; Jesus second coming during the Spanish Inquisition, ostensibly a tale told..."
Absolutely. I am reading The End of the Affair now and it is thoroughly influenced by his faith. The narrator is an antihero of sorts. I absolutely loved the Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis, but also I read the Narnia series which is just fantastic in my opinion. Both are overtly religious. Nice job picking these two authors.
I heard a radio adaptation of The Screwtape Letters read by Simon Russell Beale so I was keen to get the book. Lewis, from this evidence had an active questioning approach to his faith which, personally, makes his ideas on religion instructive to a non-believer. The almost physical wrestling with faith in the End of the Affair; her story, is what elevated that story to a favourite of mine.
Coming of AgeThe section of Jane Eyre that remains with me and proffers the title of greatness on the book is that of her school life; so many philosophical musings on Bronte’s part, describing her relatives vicious attitude to her with other people as sewing poison into the path ahead of her. Many of these are of difficult childhoods; of an elevation above obstacles and of the adult being tempered by early oppression. Kim’s skilful weaving through streets of poverty; even these scenes of degradation being embued by the richness of a multi-faceted culture.
These are adult stories; real harshness transcended. Baldwin walking south of Harlem and observing the intrusive stares increasing as he went. Baldwin needed to write this book which is essentially his father’s journey as well; to extricate himself from his father’s influence;’a literary equivalence of a boy becoming a man. We don’t escape the subversions that bend our path but the writer has the release of being able to grapple with them, acknowledge them and perhaps grow out of them.
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I am 47% into The End of the Affair now. There is a section where the writing is so beautiful I had to come online to comment. I meant to go to the book thread until I saw your response. Here's the quote:
We are sometimes so happy, and never in our lives have we known more unhappiness. It’s as if we were working together on the same statue, cutting it out of each other’s misery. But I don’t even know the design.
Greene, Graham. The End of the Affair (p. 92). Open Road Media. Kindle Edition.
Some might think that was sappy or overdone, but I just love Graham's writing style. His voice sounds so vivid, as if I can hear it in my head. I love the little matter of fact details then he erupts with an unexpectedly deep thought.
I am going to cross post this.
Gorgeous. It is unusually poetic for Greene but it’s uncommon for him to use romance in a way that isn’t compromising (a la Le Carre). The Heart of the Matter shares this tone of sentiment over cynicism.
I don't tend to categorize books this way, but here are a few I would had to feminism and why--mainly because in order to accomplish things as feminists in the Victorian era it had to look a lot different than it does today. FYI before it was possible to major in Women's Studies in British Columbia I did a minor in it, primarily in women's history, back when there were not actual women's studies prof and gender hadn't been added to it (but of course women's sexuality came up in different discussions), so I am using two filters--one, my age, and two, my studies and take on things. All three Bronte sisters had feminist themes (see links below). Anne Bronte was a stronger advocate for at least one serious problem women faced than Charlotte since it was Charlotte who struck out some of the most shocking parts of her feminist novel The Tenant of Wildfell Hall--don't be fooled by how virtuous she had to make the female lead in order to make her point. Had Anne lived longer, I am sure we'd have seen quite a bit more from her for feminist ideas. This was, as far as I know, FIRST British Victorian novel to portray an abusive husband in the upper classes (yes, of course it had been portrayed in lower classes already). Bear in mind that every single gain for women fought for by women had to be done by women who had impeccable virtue by the standards of the day.
But the Bronte's were great with feminism and here is an article about this very topic with them https://books.tl/the-novels-of-the-br... and here is one about feminist themes in Jane Eyre https://www.ipl.org/essay/Theme-Of-Fe...
Little Women Jo March is a great character and she had a marriage of equals when she did finally get married.
I know there are others, but I am short on time. My timer just rang, which means I only have a few minutes to wrap up my GR time and move onto other things. :)
This is an interesting project. I have to say I agree about Jane Eyre for feminism--it struck me that way too.A few others that come to mind are:
A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - religion
Their Eyes Were Watching God - relationships
Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl - racism
The House of the Spirits - family
RacismFor similar reasons as feminism; it is as discomforting to bracket these books in this way as it is compelling but I don’t offer myself the feeling I can judge properly at all; yet I am informed and I would base a lot of my understanding of current events on the authority of these authors. I’d recommend the Baldwin doc I Am Not Your Negro as many of these books. It is I think Baldwin’s displacement from his culture that offers the bridge of a view from the outside. Most strikingly, when Baldwin talks about his arrest in Paris he manages an entire story not centring on his colour and discrimination; none of the “We own you” yet as a Londoner I know there is the same institutional racism in any European city, however mixed my own community was. Baldwin’s writing like Isherwood’s is fascinating for its covert ness in an era when homosexuality was still illegal; another degree of separation that they use to advantage in their work.
Invisible Man confronts on another level where the prejudice is delivered by proxy; by black men in positions of power and by communist party members; the dogma of equality never extends across colour. Neither Invisible Man nor Native Man feel more of a submission to the status quo, with none of the struggle in progress that Baldwin or Morrison possess but that which was written in 1964 is tragically relevant today.
HomosexualityBaldwin uses the interesting device of a white protagonist; logically separating black and gay prejudice in one fell stroke. How he writes a white college boy is fascinating; cliche on legs but as a contrast to his other writing it’s compelling. Paris provides a cocoon for a bohemian life. How Baldwin, Orwell and Maugham write Paris couples interestingly with Zola and Flaubert, native but not Parisians; is city boys have to draw the distinction; the harshness of the city is the air you breathe when you grow up in a city; you ensure you are a spectator and not a victim.
It was hilarious and absorbing to watch Isherwood reinterpret Mr Norris And Goodbye to Berlin with the gay relationships and characters reinserted as he did in “Christopher and his Friends”. Again, Berlin plays its part; how it draws a community together where it can breathe yet what would happen to homosexuals under Nazism is a black cloud lowering close by.
In these stories the two authors step out of a canny ambiguity; they remind you that the era was of illegality and it is their community under fire; mind boggling for Baldwin against a twin assault. Isherwood rises from the flames; seeing the richness of difference where others see prejudice but also deriding the softness of liberalism constantly trying to avert its eyes as a cover for declaring other others differences are irrelevant even as they live under crushing pressure from society; clearly not the same.
RelationshipsThe clumsy, bin-like nature of these categories reveals itself again but many of these delve into more profound aspects of love, marriage and romance; falling in and out of love; as with Greene’s book, the consequential lack of trust inherent in an affair. The greatest of these is Flaubert’s book; a writer who is unafraid of exploring the crushing boredom and familiarity of long-term relationships; never has an author been so pleased with examining unhappiness. As a piece of writing, the coach ride of the lovers around Rouen is an exquisite method of describing events that cannot be explicit; exhorting the driver on.
This is a set of male authors brought into close contact with female characters by the nature of the form. Perhaps the piece of writing that epitomises the problem may never have appeared in any of these but in a film adaptation of Far From The Madding Crowd where Bathsheba complains that she is forced to use a language invented by and for men to describe her feelings. As was discussed in regard to The End of the Affair, the writing itself needs to change to be adequate to the task of showing both sides of a relationship. These female characters, as a set, feel vibrant and authentic to me; but these are men describing women to men and the fault may be locked in.
Character and PersonalityA smear of strong personalities; Zola and Hardy at their fiercest, Burroughs breaking himself down and the plain weirdness of Confederacy of Dunces. As a category it makes sense to round out the prismatic nature of human life; the dramatic tending towards the bad side of humanity even if Zola wants to blame it on bumps in the skull.
I would credit Conrad for taking the most time over his personality constructions; brick walls of continuous text stretching over pages, possibly barriers to the reader’s ability to concentrate yet he emerges in Lord Jim as worth the effort. Personality is a complicated thing. It separates cinema from literature in that two hours isn’t enough to build much character so it relies on visual cues and cliches; exemplified in the charisma that old Hollywood stars lent as a shortcut. Now that film and tv language dominates modern lit you find simile has been replaced by visual references the way films use music to signal an emotion they have no time or patience to construct. It makes the painstaking process of Villette almost excruciating even after getting attuned to the form. Once you are in classics it’s difficult to go back.
FamilyA more expansive title would be rural life and include Bronte, George Eliot, Hardy and Lawrence the strongest thread I could find across these books; all have concerns of how the countryside is changing, the alarm of industrialisation has a similar feel to disquiet with AI now; humans fed to a machine.
Lawrence and Marquez place poetry in their tracing of time through generations. Out of all these books The Rainbow stands uniquely an emotional experience. One plot point I think- a Hardyesque wrath of god flood. Beautiful.
Separating Silas Marner from Adam Bede is strange to me because both have the real life story of Evans’ mother at their core; the tale of Hetty Sorrell because there’s a truth at the heart that dominates and it is how these books transcend.
ConclusionSo my focus on classics has been ongoing for four years and, as the process refines, as I try out different authors, the stuttering start turns into a multitude of tributaries to follow. This ain’t a process of completism, I don’t need to read everything of authors I don’t like or do like but don’t need to read their early faltering efforts; for example; just good books, thanks; or more precisely books that suit my taste. It worked with Bergman and Kurosawa and some more artisan film directors like Monte Hellman and Richard Fleischer.
The essential imperative here has put me in contact with more female authors and more black authors than I otherwise would. Walter Mosley, Chester Himes and Samuel Delaney have much to say from their genres but trying to have any educated opinion seems impossible sans Baldwin for instance.
I have proved to myself that key to the concept of the classic is that it adds to contemporary discussion of philosophical or political issues; they carry that weight; how important Orwell is to modern politics? These are life studies and they make more sense to me at 54 than ever they could when forced upon me at school. The relationship betwixt teenage me and a classic book was shallow and short lasting because I didn’t bring the necessary hinterland to the conversation but I could have acquired that depth a lot quicker by paying attention to these profound authors.
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For similar reasons as feminism; it is as discomforting to bracket these books in this way as it is compelling but I don’t offer myself the feeling I can judge properly at all; yet I am inf..."
Available online is a book by James Weldon Johnson called The Autobiography of an Ex-Colored Man that was written by a professor who was influential during the Harlem Renaissance Movement. Its purpose on every page is to illustrate issues in the Black Community of that day.
Catching up on Classics (and lots more!)
Books mentioned in this topic
The Autobiography of an Ex-Coloured Man (other topics)Jane Eyre (other topics)
A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man (other topics)
Their Eyes Were Watching God (other topics)
Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl (other topics)
More...
This, I hope, can lead to a discussion of these themes and how classics work to examine and then define our understanding of those life themes. I think the success of these stories in shaping our comprehension is a large part of what goes to make them classics. Here’s the list;
Society
Jude the Obscure
A Sentimental Education
The Mill On The Floss
Down and Out In London and Paris
Crime and Punishment
Dahlgren
Nana
L’Assommoir
Blood Meridien
Middlemarch
Candide
The Trial
A Clockwork Orange
The Glass-Bead Game
Feminism
Shirley
The Bell Jar
Mrs Dalloway
To The Lighthouse
Orlando
Wide Sargasso Sea
Myra Breckinridge
Adam Bede
Politics
Animal Farm
The Secret Agent
Goodbye to Berlin
The Quiet American
Nostromo
Politics and The English Language
The Honorary Consul
The Naked and the Dead
Germinal
The Periodic Table
Mr Norris Changes Trains
The Human Factor
Religion
Brothers Karamazov
The Screwtape Letters
The Power and the Glory
The Heart of the Matter
The Master and Margarita
Coming of Age
Kim
Jane Eyre
Go Tell It On The Mountain
David Copperfield
Turn of the Screw
Racism
Notes of a Native Son
Fire Next Time
Beloved
Invisible Man
Native Son
If Beale Street Could Talk
The Bluest Eye
The Sound and the Fury
Homosexuality
Giovanni’s Room
A Single Man
Relationships
The End of the Affair
Madame Bovary
Of Human Bondage
The Woodlanders
Far From The Madding Crowd
Women in Love
Tender is the Night
Character and Personality
Lord Jim
The Idiot
Typhoon
The Mayor of Casterbridge
Therese Raquin
Bete Humaine
Metamorphosis
Villette
A Confederacy of Dunces
Naked Lunch
Pale Fire
Don Quixote
Family
The Rainbow
One Hundred Years of Solitude
Silas Marner