SFF Hot from Printers: New Releases discussion

This is the thread about languages

Tau mentioned Duolingo on the other thread. I studied some Russian for a couple of years when I was in University, but never got very far. Now I've been using Duolingo for a bit under four months to brush up those Russian skills that have been rusting away unused, and it's been pretty good for that. I'm starting to reach the limits of my previous skills and starting to learn since new words right about now.

Duolingo is interesting, since it doesn't explicitly teach you any grammar: it just repeats phrases and expects you to learn the rules of the language subconsciously, through repetition, a bit like a child learns a language.

Since I already knew some grammar beforehand, this approach suits me just fine, but I'm not sure how I'd like this approach if the language was completely unfamiliar. I'd expect to want to buy a separate grammar book, but then again I'm a nerd.

I’ve done a lot of duolingo. It was great for practicing basic vocabulary but not grammar. I took a class that helped a lot with grammar. That kind of “unlocked” the next part of duolingo for me. I could practice with duolingo and learn new vocabulary, but not the whole language if that makes sense.

well, I said everything before, but have fun, all!

Oh, and Z, it's the verb tenses in French that really got me

@Oleksandr: Thanks for the reading tip! I added it to my TBR-list ;-)
And also thanks for the Youtube-tip! I will check it out later this evening :-)

@Antti: Very nice to read about how you experience Duolingo!

@Kristen: That totally makes sense, because everyone learns in a different way ;-)

@Kateblue: The verb tenses are very difficult indeed. Although I didn't need to learn a lot for French in high school (because I already mastered the vocabulary, ...), the verbs (conjonctif, subjonctif, ...) were the only thing I had to learn just like the other students.

French and Spanish are very similar. While I was losing my mind trying to keep all the verb tenses and conjugations straight the students from France were like, "Ah yes, of course."

Kristen wrote: "French and Spanish are very similar. While I was losing my mind trying to keep all the verb tenses and conjugations straight the students from France were like, "Ah yes, of course.""

Indeed, Kristen :-)
All Roman languages are similar: French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, ...
If you know one of those languages, you already understand some of the vocabulary of the other ones and often it's also easier to learn the grammar.

My native language does not have verb conjugation, tenses (which was why I had difficulties with French, Spanish, Italian), gender, and plural forms. Being a phonetic language makes it even more easier.

Still interested to learn Spanish though, I like the way it sounds.

Silvana, I’m forgetting where you are from. What is your native tongue? I’m overwhelmed by the amount of tenses, conjugations and genders of Spanish, but I can’t conceptualize a language that doesn’t have any tenses.

I’m also curious what learning English was like for non-native speakers. I always assumed it would be super hard because it has so few rules and has been influenced and adopted words from so many other languages. Lots of memorization probably. I’ve heard Spanish is supposed to be easier than English to learn, but now that I’m trying to learn Spanish I’m having my doubts. Is it easier to learn rules or words? 🤔

Kristen wrote: "I’m also curious what learning English was like for non-native speakers. I always assumed it would be super hard "

English is one of the easier languages to learn - as with others it is hard to perfect, but absence of genders for most nouns, absence of need to follow specific rules for each noun-verb combination... just an example:

English | Ukrainian
I/you/we/they go | я йду/ти йдеш/ми йдемо/вони йдуть

And Silvana is from Indonesia, so I guess the language she refereed to is bahasa Indonesia, but I may be wrong

Yep, I'm from the beautiful archipelagic equatorial country named Indonesia ;D

Most foreigners I know who speak Indonesian usually only have difficulties with how informal our language could be during conversations and they usually end up speaking much more formal than the native speakers.

In the urban area, the more affluent ones speak mixed Indonesian and English but not (yet?) its own patois like Singlish in Singapore. I've myself been told I have Filipino American accent, whatever that means.

Kristen wrote: "Silvana, I’m forgetting where you are from. What is your native tongue? I’m overwhelmed by the amount of tenses, conjugations and genders of Spanish, but I can’t conceptualize a language that doesn..."

I think learning languages would be determined mostly by your surrounding environment. I have been exposed to English from the Christmas songs my dad taught me, and then we have English lessons since junior high school, there are lots of English courses, and of course all the American pop culture I grew up with. I have problems with French, Spanish and Italian which I tried to learn for a semester because I was and still am not surrounded with those languages. I just forgot and am too lazy to try more.

English was the only foreign language that stuck with me. I found it way easier to learn than any of the others. That is in terms of being able to communicate and express myself on a anti-intellectual level. For day-to-day use English is very easy. It certainly gets more complicated if one wants to use on a professional level. 20 years ago I used to work in a German biotech company where the official language was (American) English and I got the job not because of my qualifications in quality assurance, which I had been applying for, but because I could handle an un-announced switch from German to English in the job interview. Since I left the company 13 years ago I hadn't used English at all. I only started thinking and formulating in this language when I joined GR 2 years ago. I don't have the sophisticated level I read in some discussions and reviews, but I can follow and contribute on a basic level. I would never be able to do this in French.

Yet it is mainly vocabulary for me (never got my head around those many letters that aren't spoken in French words). I was always okay with Grammar since I started with Latin - which is the best way to really understand grammar.

this was supposed to be *non-intellectual*, not *anti* ... ^^'.

Silvana, from internet I know that bahasa Indonesia is something like lingua Franca, at least it was. Is it the primary language for you now, in family and outside? I'm just curious

Same like Gabi, working in an English speaking environment helps too.

Oleksandr wrote: "Silvana, from internet I know that bahasa Indonesia is something like lingua Franca, at least it was. Is it the primary language for you now, in family and outside? I'm just curious"

Good question. We have more than 700 living language due to hundreds of tribes here, but Indonesian or Bahasa Indonesia is the lingua franca used in official environment, businesses, etc. My family uses Indonesian mostly, yet my parents often use their own Minahasan language from my hometown. I don't since they only taught me Indonesian and use it when speaking to me so I basically lost my heritage in that part and often end up a fool when visiting my hometown *grumble*

Oh man, that comment made me start a Wikipedia search about Bahasa Indonesia that turned into a sprawling binge-read about Austronesian languages and Indonesian history. Fascinating stuff; I really should read a book about Indonesian history and/or current socio-political situation. Do you have any recommendations, Silvana?

Antti wrote: "Oh man, that comment made me start a Wikipedia search about Bahasa Indonesia that turned into a sprawling binge-read about Austronesian languages and Indonesian history. Fascinating stuff; I really..."

I'm not the right person to ask since I could recommend more books on World War II or cyberpunk than my own country's history (haha) but I read Indonesia, Etc: Exploring the Improbable Nation and it was quite accurate. Most English books about the country are too academic and/or dated and/or written by the Dutch.

Silvana wrote: "I read Indonesia, Etc: Exploring the Improbable Nation ."

Actually, that book looks fascinating.

Silvana wrote: "Antti wrote: "Oh man, that comment made me start a Wikipedia search about Bahasa Indonesia that turned into a sprawling binge-read about Austronesian languages and Indonesian history. Fascinating s..."

:D That sounds so relatable, Silvana :D. Thanks for the rec, I will put it on my TBR as well. It's time to learn to know the homelands of the members better.

Back to the languages, another youtuber I sometimes watch on the subject is Langfocus who makes a presentation of tens of different languages. It is very interesting, at least for me