The History Book Club discussion

This is the Week Six non-spoiler thread for the book The Ghost on the Throne: The Death of Alexander the Great and the War for Crown and Empire by James Romm

by James Romm (no photo)

Hello Everyone,

For the week of August 17th - August 23rd, we are reading Chapter 6: A Death on the Nile of Ghost On the Throne by James Romm.

The sixth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK SIX - August 17th - August 23rd -> 6. A Death on the Nile (137 - 167)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off July 13th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~ Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by James Romm (no photo)

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Also, the citation thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

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Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - Spoiler Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Link:

by James Romm (no photo)

Everyone, for the week of August 17th - August 23rd, we are reading Chapter 6.

The sixth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK SIX - August 17th - August 23rd -> 6. A Death on the Nile (137 - 167)

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter 6

Perdiccas was technically the head of the government of the empire, being the regent in charge of the two kings, mentally deficient Arrhidaeus and toddler Alexander. He was undecided between two marital alliances; Antipater’s daughter Nicaea or Olympias’ daughter Cleopatra.

A new formidable female now stepped onto the stage. Cynnane was Philip’s daughter and she wanted to marry her daughter Adea to Arrhidaeus. Antipater in Europe unsuccessfully tried to stop her trip from Macedon to Babylon. After she crossed the Hellespont into Asia, Perdiccas’ brother Alcetas met her group with troops arrayed for battle. Alcetas’ forces prevailed and Cynnane was killed. The Macedonian army in Babylon was appalled at the murder of Philip’s daughter. To calm down the troops, Perdiccas had Adea marry Arrhidaeus, just as Cynnane had wanted.

Meanwhile, the lengthy preparations for Alexander’s burial had been proceeding. A fabulous gold-encrusted hearse was finally ready and it started on its trip to Aegae in Macedon, where all the Macedonian royalty was buried. However, Ptolemy had it diverted to Egypt and installed it in his capital of Memphis. Perdiccas was outraged and decided to go after Ptolemy, leaving Eumenes to hold off Antipater and Craterus until he returned victorious.

Eumenes knew his Macedonian troops would never fight against Craterus, whom they revered, so he put his Asian horsemen on his right wing opposite Craterus, who died in the ensuing battle. On the left flank, Neoptolemus was the general opposing Eumenes and they battled each other personally, first on horseback, then on the ground, and Eumenes was victorious. The remainder of the forces opposing Eumenes originally surrendered, but later ran off to join Antipater.

In Egypt, Perdiccas was trying to cross the Nile, but the river was too swift and many men were swept away, to be eaten by crocodiles. The remainder of his army had had enough and three of his generals stabbed him to death in his tent.

Chapter Six


Alexander’s hearse

Discussion Topics and Questions:

1. Where do you think Alexander would prefer to be buried? In Aegae, Macedon, where his ancestors are, or in Egypt, where his “father” Ammon is worshiped?

2. We’ve met a few very interesting women: Olympias, Cleopatra, Cynnane, Adea/Eurydice, Antipater’s daughters. What did you think of them?

3. Eumenes seems to have been a pretty good general, given his origin as Alexander’s secretary and the disadvantage of being Greek. Comments?

1. pg 37 and the accompanying note on pg 333 seem to make it clear that Alexander wanted to be buried near the god Ammon.

Agree with Glyn. I don’t think Alexander intended to go back to Macedonia—dead or alive.

Help! I’ve lost a daughter. Antipater married off 4 daughters. One to Craterus and he’s dead. One to Perdiccas and he’s dead. One to Ptolemy who’s still with us. Where’s the 4th? Also, do Craterus’ and Perdiccas’ wives become new bargaining chips for Antipater?

Bill wrote: "Help! I’ve lost a daughter. Antipater married off 4 daughters. One to Craterus and he’s dead. One to Perdiccas and he’s dead. One to Ptolemy who’s still with us. Where’s the 4th? Also, do Craterus’..."

That's a good question, Bill, I was wondering that myself. Wikipedia lists only 3 daughters.

Phila, wife of Balacrus, Craterus and Demetrius I of Macedon.
Eurydice, wife of Ptolemy I Soter.
Nicaea, wife of Perdiccas and Lysimachus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipater

Pg. 133. Antipater promised daughters to Craterus and Leonnatus and “a third daughter had been offered to Perdiccas and a fourth to Ptolemy”. I guess Leonnatus is the one I missed. Don’t know if they ever married. Sounds like Antipater’s bag of daughters is almost full again. Also, thanks for the image of Alexander’s catafalque. It gives a much better idea of the scale of it.

1. Where do you think Alexander would prefer to be buried? In Aegae, Macedon, where his ancestors are, or in Egypt, where his “father” Ammon is worshiped?

It seems that as Glynn and Bill have already pointed out Alexander's preference was for Egypt. Let's not forget, however, the power of Ptolemy's propaganda, maybe this was just another piece of it surviving to this day.
Personally, I think he would have chosen Babylon roughly at the centre of his empire and his de facto seat up to his death.

2. We’ve met a few very interesting women: Olympias, Cleopatra, Cynnane, Adea/Eurydice, Antipater’s daughters. What did you think of them?

Considering the place of women in ancient times (and for almost the next two millenia) I think these women are truly remarkable and they stand out from their contemporaries. Olympias is still considered quite notorious in Greece, the rest are mostly unknown to the general public. It seems that they signified the advent of an era where women would become more involved in politics, as it was the case in the Roman Empire.

3. Eumenes seems to have been a pretty good general, given his origin as Alexander’s secretary and the disadvantage of being Greek. Comments?

One can't help recalling Napoleon's "an army marches on his belly" when one's thinking of Eumenes. I think he evolved militarily because he must have been a clever, organised and practical person (considering his position) and through observation and analysis was able to pick up military leadership skills. Also his stratagem against Craterus seems to suggest that he was one of the first to fully grasp what having a multi-culture empire meant.

One of the thoughts I had about the women was whether they acted on their own initiative or were just being used. The royal women—Olympias/Cleopatra and Cynnane/Adea—seemed to be pursuing their own ends for their own benefit. Antipater’s daughters were just being used by him for alliances. This practice continues through the Middle Ages.

I’m impressed by Eumenes at this point. His strategy defeated Craterus, and he personally fought and killed Neoptolemus. He also understands that being a Greek is a problem for him. It will be interesting to see what he does now that Perdiccas is dead. Fortunes change very quickly.

Bill wrote: "I’m impressed by Eumenes at this point. His strategy defeated Craterus, and he personally fought and killed Neoptolemus. He also understands that being a Greek is a problem for him. It will be inte..."

I like Eumenes a lot. He seems to have been an excellent strategist. But I wonder if the story of his fight with Neoptolemus might have been PR. He's described as having "a boyish face and a slender build" with his position as royal secretary having been "created to handle the complex paperwork of a growing empire." (p. 17) He just doesn't sound like someone who could win a swordfight with a seasoned warrior. But, stranger things have happened.

Bill wrote: "Pg. 133. Antipater promised daughters to Craterus and Leonnatus and “a third daughter had been offered to Perdiccas and a fourth to Ptolemy”. I guess Leonnatus is the one I missed. Don’t know if th..."

Interesting. Neither the Wikipedia page for Antipater nor the one for Leonnatus mention said daughter, wonder where Romm got his data.

Vicki wrote: "Chapter Six


Alexander’s hearse

Discussion Topics and Questions:

1. Where do you think Alexander would prefer to be buried? In Aegae, Macedon, where his ancestors are, or in Egypt, where his “fa..."

It seems like Egypt is more likely. Also, I think he might have preferred to be buried anywhere in the old Persian empire to Greece (maybe the old empire's capitals at Persepolis or Susa, for example), given how much he tried to impose Persian ways on Greek subjects.

1. I think that Alexander would prefer to be buried in Egypt because this inferred that he was a god.

2. All of those listed are power-hungry females except for Antipater's daughters. Little is said of them except for Phila who appears to have had a generous heart.

3. Eumenes was a good general he was able to win against Antipater and Craterus the most revered of Alexander's generals. He had a very logical mind and a sense of duty but he was not driven by a pursuit of power but rather a sense of duty.

Savannah wrote: "1. I think that Alexander would prefer to be buried in Egypt because this inferred that he was a god."

I'm sure you're right. In 48 BC Alexander's tomb was visited by Julius Caesar. I think Alexander would have loved that.

Indeed I think he would be proud. It seems his tomb was a popular pilgrimage especially for those in power. If I am not mistaken the last emperor to visit his tomb was Caracalla. At some point after 400CE it seems that the tomb is lost and we are still looking for it.

I was quite impressed by Cynnane. at least in their society, it seemed women were more equal. I understand Perdiccas was in a really difficult situation, it likely was, there was no good choice, but it sure seemed between the bad choices, he picked the worst ones!! Although when reading the chapter, I think I too would have went after Ptolemy first. And I probably would have made that same mistake with the elephants, it makes sense at first! Although I don't think going at first light was a good idea, Alexander did it in the dark...

Marc wrote: "I was quite impressed by Cynnane. at least in their society, it seemed women were more equal..."

Yes, I liked her too. I may have to track down the following book to find out more about all these interesting women.

by Elizabeth Donnelly Carney (no photo)

This author has written 3 more books about women in this time period.

I was really impressed with Cynnane and liked her as well. This chapter may have been my favorite. From pages 144-145, I wish an account survived of Cynnane possibly slaying an Illyrian queen. I would love to study her speech spoken to Alcetas. It reminded me that although Macedonian women were powerful, if they went after something too forcefully or hurt a man's pride there would be consequences.

Thank you for tracking down the book Vicki!

All, when you complete reading and posting up through page 167 and comment about anything you want to discuss about Chapter 6: A Death on the Nile , please go to the Week Seven thread.

Here is the link to the Week Seven thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...