Reading 1001 discussion

This is the discussion thread by The Masterby Colm Tóibín.

Place reviews here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I've been meaning to read this novel all year, and just haven't gotten to it yet, so I'll be moderating this BOTM discussion for October.

Background, gleaned from browsing the internet.... The Master is Colm Toibin's 5th novel, published in 2004. The story centers on the writer Henry James, between 1895 and 1899. Toibin himself made his homosexuality public in 1993, the same year that homosexuality was decriminalized in Ireland. This novel explores the sexual/gender identity of a man who has not been openly homosexual, but who may in fact be homosexual. This novel may be part of Toibin's own exploration of his identity as a homosexual Irish man.

Questions:
1. Toibin portrays Henry James as homosexual, a man who has married and had children, but who secretly is interested in men. This may be accurate, or may be just a way for Toibin to explore his own sexuality at some remove from himself. What do you think? Does it matter what James's 'real' sexual orientation was?
2. Does reading this novel make you think differently about James's novels and stories? Have you read any of his work prior to reading The Master? Which James novels/stories would you like to read next, now that you've read The Master?
3. How does Toibin portray Ireland in this novel?
4. What was your favorite scene in this novel?
5. Did you enjoy this novel? Do you think this novel deserves to be on a 1001 Books You Must Read Before You Die list? What other books similar to this one should also be included on a 1001 list if you were the one compiling such a list?

I am going to listen to an Audible version. I loved the Irish lilt to the sample I tried.

I loved this book. I posted a brief review but I didn't mention the sexual inclinations of James or the author in it. However, I do think that James was portrayed as someone who noticed men's physical presence, how they hold their bodies, what physical power or charm they bring into the world, while his deep female relationships tended to be discussed in terms of their minds. I found this to be a wonderful change of pace to most books. In today's world James may have seen himself as homosexual, bisexual or fluid but given the world he built for himself at the time, he probably simply preferred that it not be a matter of discussion.

1. Toibin portrays Henry James as homosexual, a man who has married and had children, but who secretly is interested in men. This may be accurate, or may be just a way for Toibin to explore his own sexuality at some remove from himself. What do you think? Does it matter what James's 'real' sexual orientation was?

I always find it a bit uncomfortable when modern people start trying to pin down deceased people as homosexual. It makes sense to me that an author like Toibin might benefit from imagining authors he admires as if they were gay. And, maybe James was. From my skimmed internet research, though, it doesn't seem like there is much conclusive evidence to say for sure what modern definition of sexual orientation best fits Henry James. I am trying to read the rest of The Master as if it is just fiction, rather than an attempt at interpreting the real personal history of a real man. I know as a woman on the Autistic Spectrum I occasionally get into those rather pointless discussions about whether some long-dead historical figure was 'on the spectrum', but publishing a novel about someone that portrays them as gay or on the spectrum, or anything else like that, that may be interpreted as historical fact rather than fiction by the general public seems a bit wrong to me, a little anyway. It's like colonizing that person in the name of your particular marginalized group, knowing they are dead and cannot defend and define their own identity.

Yes, that is a good insight and I agree with you Jaimie. It appears that the author did a great deal of research, in particular reading all of James’ letters that were available, but we do not know what James would have shared nor what he would have wanted to project in those letters. I did love the sexual ambiguity of the person that Toibin portrayed in the novel but a portrayal is not necessarily tied to any historical reality of the subject.

Questions:

1. Maybe I sped read through this part too fast, or mistook this with real life, but I thought only Henry’s brother was married? He never married or had children in real life either, and the first biography of him painted him as “neurotic chaste” before writers had access to his personal letters. Generally academic writing about James seems to agree he was homosexual- which seeing as he wrote some really erotic stuff to men and never to women seems pretty sound to me. I’m sure Toibin was drawn to write about his life because of that connection to his own personal story.

I get what other people here are saying about why we should be trepidations about retro-labelling people: a lack of consent from that person, a complete picture including verifying what we have about them, and forcing other times and cultures into our framework in ways that aren’t synonymous can all be problems. But, I think there is immense value as well in providing a “you aren’t alone, we’ve always been here” history for marginalized people to look up to, and to educate others who say things like “people deciding things/making up identities all of a sudden: people never used to be like this” etc.

For me, I think the issue of whether it’s “okay” to portray historical figures as LGBTQ+ who did not self-identify explicitly is this: would we place the bar as high for portraying people as straight? And almost always, the answer is no. Two big examples that immediately come to mind are Pocahontas and anything about Queen Elizabeth the I. There isn’t even strong evidence that Pocahontas and John Smith even actually met: yet we don’t object to depictions of them having an affair in media on those grounds (as opposed to maybe the dodgy racial optics). Officially, Elizabeth’s line was that she was virgin, and had been molested as a teenager and had close male friends, but there’s no explicit evidence she had lovers. I don’t see people objecting to that being depicted in media about her though: “but really, she had to be schtuping someone” is the common theme in all most all of them. If you’re that rare person who did actually know and care about these to the same extent as LGBTQ+ depictions, I think that’s fine. But let’s be honest, most people don’t care or even consider these depictions are ahistorical or wrong on some level. I just think things should be equal.

The other big example I can think of is another list book “The English Patient”. The book portrays real life aviator László de Almásy as having an affair with a fictional British woman. Letters from him were found after the publishing of the book, detailing his affairs with young men and clearly expressing he was gay. Now, in the absence of positive evidence, was it okay/did it matter that he was portrayed as straight? Because of heteronormativity, we assume people are straight until proven otherwise, but we require so much more evidence before we allow people to be portrayed as not. Because LGBTQ+ identities are “others” we put them under a glass of skepticism and demanding proof that we don’t for straight narratives. Due to that, I honestly say Eff it, write about more historical people as being gay, bi, asexual etc, or we put way more scrutiny in crafting straight historical narratives.

I think another important point is just because someone wasn’t out in their lifetime, doesn’t mean they wouldn’t want to be seen as they were in a more distant friendlier future if they were closeted in their life for their personal safety or essentially against their will. We don’t always know (I mean, there is a letter between two WWII lovers that I really loved because it essentially said “someday I hope we live in a world where we can share these in peace”).

Anyways…sorry about going off on an essay for this question lol. I think it’s a great question, and an important issue that I find really interesting.

2. What’s interesting to me is that when I read he was likely gay (before reading this novel) I reflected on his novels and didn’t feel like anything was more subtexty or in a different light now (unlike someone like D.H Lawrence where everything suddenly made waaaaaay more sense). Except maybe that he crafted a lot of narratives about women feeling repressed and then trying to experience their yearnings? Haven’t read the Golden bowl yet, so that’s probably my next James novel.

3. Ireland is largely the Ireland of the elite in this novel, so seems largely English in a lot of ways other than the tension the elite have with the country and the people.

4. How James’ anticipation for his play and then the subsequent humiliation at the beginning was so well written in my opinion. I really felt those emotions, as well as the sense of the fading away.

5. I did enjoy the novel, and gave it 4 stars, and am looking forward to Toibin’s other work. I loved the movie Brooklyn, so will probably get into the book eventually. I would probably keep it on the list, and it reminded me a bit of “The Hours” also from the list.

1- James remained a "bachelor" all his life, despite pressures from close ones that he should marry. Despite many indications in this novel and in James' epistolary records that he might have been homosexual, there is no conclusive evidence that he was. I actually was more under the impression that the novel was exploring his difficulties in dealing with intimacy and close relationships, not only from a possible homosexual angle, but also in his relationships with women (his sister Alice, Minny Temple, Constance Fenimore Woolson, his sister-in-law Alice).

We must keep in mind the context of that period in the UK: in 1885, the British Parliament adopted the Labouchere Amendment prohibiting gross indecency between males (in other words, outlawing any sexual act between homosexuals). Therefore, anybody with homosexual tendencies had to be extra careful before engaging in any relationships and would try as much as possible to keep public knowledge of this "in the closet". As alluded to in the novel, Oscar Wilde learned a thing or two about this law, as he was prosecuted and sentenced for two years in jail in 1895 for gross indecency. Other characters in the novel, including Edmund Gosse, possibly had similar inclinations; however, despite several hints and possibilities, it is virtually impossible to conclude that James and Gosse, among others, were actually gay, even in a latent manner.

Therefore, the exact sexual orientation of Henry James shouldn't really matter; he was a great American author, full stop.

2- No, it won't change the way I view James' works, nor do I think the fact that he might have been homosexual should change the way we should read his novels. I have read previously The Turn of the Screw and Portrait of a Lady, which I quite enjoyed. I intend to read his later novels which have been included in the List (What Maisie Knew, The Wings of the Dove, The Ambassadors, The Golden Bowl).

3- In the novel, the visit to Ireland occurs a couple of years after the Irish Home Rule was vetoed by the House of Lords. Therefore, it was in a dangerous and tense political climate that James visited the Wolseleys in their Irish domain. I recall mentions in the book that it would have been dangerous even for the kids to go out unaccompanied, even in broad daylight.

4- Considering that I had to plough through this book, I'm a bit at a loss to pick a favourite scene. I found Minny Temple to be an interesting person, so I guess the part of the book focusing on her could qualify as my favourite.

5- Even though the topic was interesting and it was quite well written, I struggled to find some enthusiasm in reaching the end of that book. Not entirely sure that it should have its place on the List.

Questions:

2. Does reading this novel make you think differently about James's novels and stories? Have you read any of his work prior to reading The Master? Which James novels/stories would you like to read next, now that you've read The Master?

It did make me wish that I had read more of his work. As I have read only a few (Turn of the Screw, Portrait of a Lady) I will probably tackle the other books on the 1001 list next.

3. How does Toibin portray Ireland in this novel?

It is an anxious time in which the English aristocracy landlords and the army elite see the Irish population as largely hostile, which they probably were. However, the fancy dress ball must go on...stiff upper lip and all that.

4. What was your favorite scene in this novel?

I appreciated moments, the son realizing his father is obsessed with a sunbather, the secondary awareness that James (the character) comes to about his contribution to Minny's death and even to Constante's death. The situation in the antique dealer's shop in which James finds himself in an awkward position with Lady Woolsey....the little moments that had big subtext.

5. Did you enjoy this novel? Do you think this novel deserves to be on a 1001 Books You Must Read Before You Die list? What other books similar to this one should also be included on a 1001 list if you were the one compiling such a list?

I did appreciate this novel although again, I wish I knew more of Jame's work. I thought the author did a great job of channeling a "possible" Henry James. I liked this character, whether he really was like Henry James or not. It is an odd book to have on the 1001 list though.

1. I agree with Amanda's rant - no-one seems to question that he had an intimate relationship with Constance Fenimore Woolson. I have to say while the author was hinting at homosexuality I was left with the impression that James was asexual it certainly appears in the novel that he has problems with intimacy and doesn't actually really connect with anyone male or female. I have no problem with whatever sexuality James was in fact when I am reading all I care about is what the author has written.

Recently I was considering how reading would change if we weren't told who was the author of a book. The reader would choose the book they wanted to read regardless of sex, sexuality, race or religion I would be interested to see the metrics that came from doing that. Of course it would make my read around the world challenge difficult but I still think it would be fascinating.

2. Nope doesn't influence my reading at all see comment above. I have read Turn of the Screw which I loved and What Maisie Knew which I can't really remember. Reading this has made me want to read more of James' work particularly Portrait of a Lady and to learn more about Constance Fenimore Woolson.

3. Ireland is a land still divided between English masters and Irish servants. There is an uneasy balance in place.

4. Not a favourite as such but memorable was James looking back at how he treated Constance Fenimore Woolson and considering how his actions could have lead to her action. It was also interesting how he dealt with her belongings particularly her writing and her clothing.

5. Personally this was a 3 star read for me I am not sure why it is on the list. Reading it has not inspired be to read anything else by Colm Toibin but I will definitely read more by James.

Book wrote: "1. I agree with Amanda's rant - no-one seems to question that he had an intimate relationship with Constance Fenimore Woolson. I have to say while the author was hinting at homosexuality I was left..."

I actually try to not know much about a book's author before reading their book(s), which makes it tough sometimes doing challenges. I have no definite idea what race, gender, or minority categorization most authors fit into, on purpose, so I can read and evaluate their work on its own merits. If I really like their book, I might look them up on Geedreads to find out what else they wrote, and usually that is when I first see their photos and a bit of biographical info on them. I've read several of Toibin's other novels and only knew he identified as homosexual when I pulled up the info for this book of the month thread, though I did know he's Irish of course.

1. What an interesting discussion about whether being homosexual or not affects how one reads different works. I agree with Jamie. I try not to research a book so that I come to it fresh, which sometimes means I come to some of the discussion questions too late. I then enjoy reading about an author after I have finished their book. It depends on whether an author's reputation has gone before. I started reading the responses to this question this morning and was down a rabbit hole for hours reading about D.H.Lawrence's bi-sexuality. Thanks Amanda! I actually think that Toibin is quite discreet about James' sexuality. It would be interesting to conjecture what he thought about Oscar Wilde's spectacular demise, ot what his relationship with Constance Fennimore Woolson was really like. I have really enjoyed the Audible version of this novel and it may be colouring my responses, but I enjoyed it as a novel, while possibly learning more about the James family - or not!
2. I have read The Turn of the Screw. which I gave four stars, and What Maisie Knew and The Portrairt of a Lady, which both scored three stars. I am now keen to read his other three books on the list.
3. Patrick explains the background admirably. I don't agree that Ireland is still ruled by English Lords and Irish servants, at least not the Republic of Ireland, I have not been to Northern Ireland.
4. Henry's increasing inability to face the problem of the Smiths. His seating guests with their back to the door is excruciating!
5. As I said, I really relished the reading of this book by William Hope, which added much to my enjoyment. I cannot know think of any similar books which should be on the list - an interesting question. Will add more as I think about that question.

1. Toibin portrays Henry James as homosexual, a man who has married and had children, but who secretly is interested in men. This may be accurate, or may be just a way for Toibin to explore his own sexuality at some remove from himself. What do you think? Does it matter what James's 'real' sexual orientation was?
This is a difficult question. While there may be some hints as to James' actual sexual orientation, nobody knows for sure. While it is possible, I don't feel he should be labeled as anything, since he is not here to make that declaration himself. Despite this, I feel the author did a good job of portraying James' life and relationships, based on the facts available. Was there a bias based on the author's own orientation? Perhaps. Did this make a difference in the readability of the book? No.

2. Does reading this novel make you think differently about James's novels and stories? Have you read any of his work prior to reading The Master? Which James novels/stories would you like to read next, now that you've read The Master?
It was nice to get some insight into his real life and the challenges he faced. I can see how this shaped and influenced many of his stories. I have read many books by James, too many to mention. Books of his on my TBR to read someday include The Bostonians, The Ivory Tower, The Outcry, The Other House, and the New York Stories of Henry James.

3. How does Toibin portray Ireland in this novel?
Compared to some of his other books, Ireland was not a dominant figure. It seemed to portray Ireland as viewed from the Anglo-Irish aristocracy, which makes sense for the time and the circles James traveled in.

4. What was your favorite scene in this novel?
I agree with Amanda. While this was not a "favorite" scene, I found this one of the most memorable and interesting parts of the book.

5. Did you enjoy this novel? Do you think this novel deserves to be on a 1001 Books You Must Read Before You Die list? What other books similar to this one should also be included on a 1001 list if you were the one compiling such a list?
I did enjoy this novel, but I honestly don't think it should be part of the 1001 list.

2. I read several of James's books- The Portrait of a Lady, The Wings of the Dove, What Maisie Knew, The American, and a short story collection of his that included The Turn of the Screw. I generally find his books tediously dull, though my sister loves his work and keeps pressuring me to try another one. I am not sure I am exactly excited to read any particular book next by him, but I am curious to see whether they seem at all less dull now that I have an image in my mind of what he might have been aiming for in writing his stories.
3. Toibin, through his Henry James character, showed an Ireland that was extremely grubby and poor, except in the homes of the wealthy who catered to the British and their rule. In other books I've read by Toibin he looks more closely at what the lives of Irish people were like, not just the desperate poverty and unpleasantness. But in this book it is harder to imagine the lives of everyday Irish people as anything but just miserable, when seeing them through the lens of a fairly wealthy, comfortable man used to life in London. It struck me that this is the sort of lens that also renders poor people in inner cities pretty much everywhere as miserable, unnuanced victims.
4. The scenes in which James was chatting with his guests as if they were not all watching his drunk servants were probably my favorites too. I loved the bit about the kid coming in wearing a very oversized jacket to take over serving after Mr. Smith screwed up the last time.
5. I did enjoy this novel. Not being much of a Henry James fan, I was not sure what to expect, but it was a good story. Of all Toibin's books, this would not have been one of my 1001 Books picks, but I suppose since we are all reading Henry James anyway in reading the 1001 list, it makes sense to also read a novel about him. I hate just grumbling about books that don't deserve to be on The List, so I do like to think about what other books I might choose instead, or in addition to what I am reading, to put on The List. Novels about novelists are often awkward, because novelists would maybe not have time to write as many books if they also led really exciting lives worthy of novelization. I did really like Summertime, by Coetzee, a novel about someone writing a book about Coetzee. He is already overrepresented in the List, though. So, I guess for lack of a better pick, I'd probably let The Master stay on the 1001 List.

Pip wrote: "I started reading the responses to this question this morning and was down a rabbit hole for hours reading about D.H.Lawrence's bi-sexuality. Thanks Amanda!"

Lol! you're welcome XD, I feel like "Women in Love" specifically begs to be read with this in mind, it really makes the whole thing richer imo.

Also the fact that he once suggested the only person he was ever in love with was a young working class man really kind of enriches Lady Chaterly's lover for me.