Victorians! discussion

Chapters 11 and 12

Following the disagreement between Luke Rowan and Mr. Tappit, the latter makes it clear to Luke that his presence in his house is irksome to him. He leaves Mr. Tappit’s house and takes a temporary room in the village inn. Luke then pays his promised visit to Bragg’s End Cottage. There, when Rachel was absent for a moment, Luke seeks permission from Mrs. Ray to court Rachel. Poor Mrs. Ray is quite at a loss first. But Luke has made a favourable impression on her mind and Mrs. Ray finds that she actually likes him. She doesn’t express a formal consent but doesn’t discourage him either, and Luke is quite prepared to interpret it as assent.

When Luke is taking his leave from Rachel’s house, Mrs. Prime makes her appearance. It happens that she wanted to consult Mrs. Ray about how she should best answer Mr. Prong’s proposal. But when she sees Luke leaving the house, all the old animosities springs out, and there follows an unpleasant argument. Mrs. Ray defends Luke and Rachel as best she could and the angry and disappointed Mrs. Prime leaves requesting Mrs. Ray to meet her at Miss Puckers' next morning. In any case, after having strongly objected to her sister’s suit, she cannot bring about hers to light for the moment.

Rachel learns Luke’s intentions from her mother later that night and is quite happy to find that he is a steady, upright man and that his attentions to her have been sincere. She happily forgives his misconduct and the liberties that he’s taken with her. In fact, she tells her mother that she likes him.

Chapter 13

Meanwhile, Mrs. Tappit has goaded Mrs. Rowan by communicating with her about Luke’s attachment to Rachel. Mrs. Tappit, out of jealousy, injures Rachel by painting a very low picture of her station in life and her character in person. Such behavior is very unbecoming for a woman of Mrs. Tappit’s standing, but jealousy is a powerful tool that cries out for vengeance.

Mrs. Rowan being alarmed and much distressed confronts Luke at the inn of its truth. Luke admits his attachment and his resolve to ask for Rachel’s hand so displeasing Mrs. Rowan. Mrs. Rowan’s object, as it looks, is the lower station of Rachel’s life, and she plainly declares to Luke that such is a very ill-suited match. Luke becomes quite angry knowing very well where this account is coming from and defends Rachel warmly. Seeing Luke’s resolve, Mrs. Rowan leaves him unhappy.

Luke decides to have one more talk with Mr. Tappit. But that goes wrong because the letter containing Luke’s business proposal sent through his lawyer (which Luke has quite forgotten) was received by Mr. Tappit running him into a black mood. Their encounter threatens to be violent and Luke leaves resolving firmly to take to legal proceedings.

Chapter 14 and 15

Mrs. Ray visits Mrs. Prime at Miss Puckers as was promised. There she learns of the marriage proposal made to Mrs. Prime by Mr. Prong. From her, later communication of it to Rachel shows that Mrs. Ray is not too pleased. Was it because of any monetary disadvantage they may have or because she disliked him as a pastor on behalf of Mr. Comfort is difficult to say.

While Mrs. Ray is thus away, Luke Rowan comes to Bragg’s End cottage and makes an offer of marriage to Rachel which she accepts. Luke leaves the cottage promising to make another visit later in the day, but the brewery business calls him to London immediately. After sending an explanatory note to Rachel he departs to London. But before he leaves, he communicates to the mother of his engagement.

Mrs. Rowan, very much dissatisfied, decides to try her hands at separating Rachel from Luke. To achieve this end, and for this end only, Mrs. Rowan ally with Mrs. Tappit, for her heart is grieved for the way Luke was treated by the Tappits, turning him out from the house and the brewery. Together they pay a visit to Bragg’s End cottage. Mrs. Ray is very much discomfited by this visit and more so when communications were made by Mrs. Rowan as to the unsuitability of the match declaring that it was an offer made without much thought on his part. More fuel is added to the fire by Mrs. Tappit by adding comments as to Rachel’s respectability, but Mrs. Ray, weak though she may be, defends Rachel with warmth. The visit throws an air of unhappiness in Bragg’s End cottage but despite all Rachel is determined to stand by him, if he stands by her.

Meanwhile, Mrs. Prime accepts Mr. Prong’s offer, and that concludes Volume I of the book.

The story is progressing rapidly now with many interesting events taking place. What did you all think of this segment?

I love Trollope and his humor! When Mrs. Prime shows up at Bragg’s End to discuss the marriage proposal, but then realizes she can’t bring it up after all of her goings-on about Rachel and Luke… That made me laugh out loud!

Oh, I hadn’t thought of Mrs. Ray being uneasy with Prong’s proposal because of the money related to them. What a good point. That is a predicament. And Dorothea is so guarded with her money…I wonder if she would still help them?
Although it doesn’t sound like Mr. Prong is well received. In fact, I’ve read reference to Mr. Slope and Mrs. Proudie from Barchester Towers. It seems Dorothea and Mr. Prong are neither marrying for love but just for the gain from the other anyway. I do wonder though where this is going to go! I don’t like Dorothea as a character, up to now anyway, but I am excited now about this new proposition for her.

The Mrs. Tappit and Rowan’s visit to Mrs. Ray was just horrid. I was glad that Mrs. Ray stood up for herself and Rachel. I did find one thing that I’m really not liking in Mrs. Ray that’s really coming out more and more - since she became a widow at least and ever after she’s leaned on Dorothea. She’s lost the ability to think for herself and to take appropriate action. She just passes off important decisions to Dorothea and has almost become the 2nd child in the family. Mrs. Ray has not a lot of sense of her own beliefs and any wind that blows and gives her a sniff of something wrong, she’s ready to abandon ship. She can be very cowardly in that regard. She didn’t have a hugely positive feeling from those two women to begin with, especially Mrs. Tappit if we can glean anything from the way Mrs Ray left her, yet she’s let them get to her. I’m happy for Rachel that she remains strong and stands by her convictions.

Although the scene with the Mrs. Tappit and Rowan does have me worried if Mr. Trollope is going to throw a cog in this wedding wheel already ….

This was an exciting bit and its really getting juicy!!

I loved the last chapter in this week's reading. It is a classic example of when people put themselves in a false position and just wind up damaging each other. Mrs Rowan and Mrs Tappit's alliance looks to be coming apart at the seams. How can Mrs Rowan cast doubts about her own son?

Jim, I especially loved Mrs Rays parting words to Mrs Rowan then...

Good-bye, ma'am,"she said to Mrs. Rowan. "I suppose you mean to do the best you can by your own child."

"And by yours too," said Mrs. Rowan.

"If so, I can only say that you must think very badly of your own
son. Good-bye, ma'am." Then Mrs. Ray curtseyed them out,--not without a certain amount of dignity, although her eyes were red with tears,

I thought that terrific. If it were a play it’s where the whole audience would burst out applauding.

Brenda wrote: "Jim, I especially loved Mrs Rays parting words to Mrs Rowan then...

Good-bye, ma'am,"she said to Mrs. Rowan. "I suppose you mean to do the best you can by your own child."

"And by yours too," s..."

Loved this dialogue too, Brenda. I read it over and over inwardly applauding Mrs. Ray. Who thought she could summon the courage to say a thing like that?

Jim wrote: "I loved the last chapter in this week's reading. It is a classic example of when people put themselves in a false position and just wind up damaging each other. Mrs Rowan and Mrs Tappit's alliance ..."

That's a good point you've raised there Jim. How could Mrs. Rowan discredit her own son just to break up an engagement?

Jim wrote: "I loved the last chapter in this week's reading. It is a classic example of when people put themselves in a false position and just wind up damaging each other. Mrs Rowan and Mrs Tappit's alliance ..."

Me too!!!
And, by the way, why all this hatred toward cider? I love it so – and in Italy it is so difficult to find!!!! And I love it so much!!!!

In chapters eleven to fifteen the strongest characteristic that came through to me was the humour. I laughed at the standoff in the brewery office with the poker. It was never going to become violent even though there was a lot of bluster. Afterwards, the normally even-tempered Mr. Tappit felt totally ashamed of himself. But wasn’t that poker a defence against being thrown on the scrapheap? Also the meeting of the three ladies at Mrs. Ray’s cottage was hilarious. It could have been a comedy sketch. Trollope at his humorous best.

However underlying all this humour seems to be a foreboding of tragedy. After Luke had proposed to Rachel and she had ever so shyly accepted, I felt that there might be a future for them. But when I read:-
‘That evening was probably the happiest of Rachel’s existence, although its full proportions of joy were marred by an unforeseen occurrence. At four o’clock a note came from Rowan to his “Dearest Rachel,” saying that he had been called away by telegraph to London about that “horrid brewery business.”’
....it provoked thoughts that Rachel must be in for distressing times ahead. Could she become a victim of social snobbery or even, despite Luke’s firm assertions and Trollope telling us that he loves her, a victim of Luke’s impulsive and utopian ideology?

Luke’s attitude and actions have roused the strongest emotions in everyone around him particularly Mr.and Mrs Tappit, Rachel, and Mrs. Rowan. He acts as if none of them have a right to influence or interfere with his plans, even Rachel. Rachel is quite right to object to his demand that they get married immediately as she needs a chance to get to know him.

Mr. Tappit was mentioned as ‘Pigheaded’ by Luke at least three times, and even Rachel called/thought it of him once. Rachel will obviously support her fiancé but Luke’s inability to empathise with others, in order to find subtle ways of winning them over, has left Rachel and Mrs. Ray in a very difficult position, alienating them from the friends they once had. There is no doubt that Rachel has been badly treated by Mrs. Rowan and Mrs. Tappit, both targeting her lowly status but she has been put in that position by Luke’s impulsive actions. Now he has left her and gone to London.
Mrs. Ray now wishes that she had never heard of Luke Rowan but her daughter Rachel is going to stick by him as long as he keeps his promise to marry her. Rachel will need Luke’s support if she is to fend off the attacks so his stay in London needs to be brief.

Trev wrote: "In chapters eleven to fifteen the strongest characteristic that came through to me was the humour. I laughed at the standoff in the brewery office with the poker. It was never going to become viole..."

I don't think we can blame Luke for Mrs. Rowan's and Mrs. Tappit's behaviour to Rachel. He only wanted Mrs. Rowan to pay a friendly visit to Bragg' s End and couldn't have expected her teaming up with Mrs. Tappit. I think it may have never occured to Luke that his mother will team with people who have turn him out from his rightful place. Of course, Luke is to blame for antagonising the Tappits with his arrogant and tactless manners, but that is no reason for the Tappits to take it all out on Rachel and attack her character.

I agree with you about the humour. I can still picture Mr.Tappit in a rage holding a poker pointed at Luke. :)

Piyangie wrote: "Trev wrote: "In chapters eleven to fifteen the strongest characteristic that came through to me was the humour. I laughed at the standoff in the brewery office with the poker. It was never going to..."

Luke thought that his mother ‘would come round’ to his way of thinking about marrying Rachel in the same way that he thought Mr. Tappit would come round to being retired off a business he had worked in all his life. He seems to have no idea of handling other people, even those closest to him.
I agree that the Tappit/Rowan conspiracy against Rachel was disgraceful and if I could have more confidence in Luke I would want his marriage to Rachel to succeed (mainly for Rachel’s sake) in spite of the opposition.

I really enjoyed the way Trollope comments on the snobbery and class ideas of the women in this section. Both Mrs Rowan and Mrs Tappitt feel Rachel and her mother are beneath them - oh horror, they are friendly with Farmer Sturt! Mrs Rowan also looks down on Mrs Tappitt, but makes a temporary alliance to try to prevent the romance between Rachel and Luke.

Yet it is Rachel and her mother who show more good manners and honest behaviour than either of their visitors. I was so pleased that Mrs Ray stood up for Rachel, despite wishing the romance had never started. Despite their more lowly status, they are good people who do what is right, not what keeps up their standing in the eyes of society.

Pamela wrote: "I really enjoyed the way Trollope comments on the snobbery and class ideas of the women in this section. Both Mrs Rowan and Mrs Tappitt feel Rachel and her mother are beneath them - oh horror, they..."

Perhaps, that's exactly what Trollope wanted to highlight, Pamela, the good manners of those who deemed "low" in status and the utter rudeness of those who think they are of "high" status. But their behavior show who is low and who is high.

Exactly, Piyangie, and he does it in a very affectionate and amusing way, even though there is a serious point there.

I agree Pamela. I just had a Mary Poppins thought about Trollope...
"A Spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down..."

I appreciate his satire as its a bit under the radar, and usually just more forthright than biting or sarcastic. Some authors can lean too much in being mean and/or overdone in their satire, where Trollope does not.

Brenda wrote: "Some authors can lean too much in being mean and/or overdone in their satire, where Trollope does not..."

It’s a real skill and one of the reasons I enjoy him so much. There is a warmth towards his characters, who are a mixture of good and bad, not just stereotypes to feed the satire,

Trev wrote: "In chapters eleven to fifteen the strongest characteristic that came through to me was the humour. I laughed at the standoff in the brewery office with the poker. It was never going to become viole..."

I also liked how Trollope points out that a young man could not fight back to an older man, and could only run away, but if the older man came at him with a poker, then he would be able to fight back without dishonour, so that both of them know that the poker is not going to be used.

I also felt that Mrs Ray did much better than expected when faced with the two other women who were looking down on her, and I was rather disappointed that Rachel ran away and left her to it. However it may have been a good move on Rachel's part not to get into any overt antagonism with her future mother-in-law.

Poor Mrs Prime! She is going to be really angry and jealous of Rachel when she sees her handsome young fiancé compared to her own rather sorry specimen.

I had not realized that the Rays were socially so much beneath the Rowans. I did not expect such objections from Mrs Rowan. So was not Mr Ray a gentleman? Did not Mr Comfort's daughter marry a man of a higher social class?

I thought both Mrs Ray and Dorothea married clergymen?

Brenda wrote: "I thought both Mrs Ray and Dorothea married clergymen?"

Mrs Ray married an ecclesiastical lawyer, who dealt with property matters for the dean. Dorothea married a clergyman, who was Mr Comfort’s curate.

So maybe it’s less the professions of the late husbands, and more just the fact that they live on a more modest income, that makes Mrs. Tappit and Mrs. Rowan feel so superior? These latter two certainly came off rather silly in their visit. Poor Mrs. Ray got herself a but of a backbone in the end.

They were also confused about whether they were "friends" with the neighbouring farmer or just bought cream from them.

The whole misunderstanding arose through Mrs. Tappit's doing. She misrepresented the Ray family to Mrs. Rowan as friends of the farmer family implying that they are of a similar status, far below either the Rowans or the Tappits. And I believe, the financial situation of the Rays too added up to it.

Mr. Comfort's daughter didn't face such an objection because Mr. Comfort has money. It is said that a considerable amount of money was settled on her when she was married to the Cornbury family.

If you compare Elizabeth Gaskell’s ‘North And South’ you could argue that the Tappits are way below the social status of the Rays.
In North and South (spoiler alert for those who have not read N&S) (view spoiler)[Margaret Hale, a clergyman’s daughter, is courted by Henry Lennox the lawyer/barrister. She turns down Henry’s marriage proposal even though he is considered eminently suitable. At first she looks down her nose at John Thornton, the manufacturer, as she considers all tradespeople beneath her. Margaret is poor and John Thornton is rich but that makes no difference. Things do turn out differently as those who have read the book know. (hide spoiler)]
Professions connected with law and the church were considered much more respectable for ‘gentlemen’ than anything to do with trade.

Trev wrote: "If you compare Elizabeth Gaskell’s ‘North And South’ you could argue that the Tappits are way below the social status of the Rays.
In North and South (spoiler alert for those who have not read N&S..."


Yes, Trev, according to the Victorian standards, its very true what you've mentioned here. Tradespeople, though rich, were looked down upon as not being gentlemen. Mr. Ray being connected with both law and church is above in status to Mr. Tappit. But as we observed with the Thorntons in North and South, Tappits are in return eager to assert their position in society with their power of money and look down upon the 'poor gentlemen' like Mr. Ray

Brenda wrote: "I love Trollope and his humor! When Mrs. Prime shows up at Bragg’s End to discuss the marriage proposal, but then realizes she can’t bring it up after all of her goings-on about Rachel and Luke… Th..."

Piyangie wrote: "Chapters 11 and 12

Following the disagreement between Luke Rowan and Mr. Tappit, the latter makes it clear to Luke that his presence in his house is irksome to him. He leaves Mr. Tappit’s house an..."

Trollope's humor is speckled all over this section and allows for awkward moments, particularly the bourgeoisie ambush at Bragg’s End Cottage. These two haughty old women in their fractured alliance. Mrs. Ray held her ground though, in her own meek way.

I also loved the humour in these chapters, esp. when the Mrs. Rowan and Tappit team up to avoid the marriage between Rachel and Luke, but always quarrel when they talk to Mrs. Ray, who can´t use that to her advantage!

Otherwise I didn´t like Luke´s behaviour towards both Mrs. Ray and esp. Rachel, when he harasses her when she´s alone. Rachel doesn´t have enough experience to ward him off.

Once again we see Mrs. Ray´s weakness in decisions. I also wondered that she seemed to approve of Mrs. Prime´s marriage, when it was obviously not to her advantage, and she herself had doubts.

Michaela wrote: "Once again we see Mrs. Ray´s weakness in decisions. I also wondered that she seemed to approve of Mrs. Prime´s marriage, when it was obviously not to her advantage, and she herself had doubts..."

Mrs. Ray was always kind of intimidated by Mrs. Prime and wouldn't have expressed her disapproval openly. But Mrs. Prime is not quite decided on the matter because of the money question and Mrs. Ray is supporting the idea that Mrs. Prime should have her money securely settled on her and not be commanded by Mr. Prong. So in a vicarious way, Mrs. Ray was acting against the match.