Retro Reads discussion

Open discussion for the entire book! Spoilers don't need to be tagged here, but please unclick "Add to my Update Feed" if your comment includes spoilers.

Just finished. I had a fun time with this. I really liked Hilary and gradually came to like Henry. The author helped me along by showing me what he was thinking and feeling.

I thought the scene at the end, where Flora is watching Marion listening to Hilary's good news phone call, was so lovely. I could see Marion's transformation. What a great place to end the book.

I've posted a short review here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I was just thinking about what an out-and-out villain Bertie was; his plans were not only deep and devious, but laid out for a long time in advance. He began to make himself conspicuous by his long and violently red hair, his rather flamboyant clothes, and his speech way before the murder was to take place. His "coincidental" meetings with Louisa and Alfred were all a part of his devious, cold brain. Brrrr!

Karlyne wrote: "I was just thinking about what an out-and-out villain Bertie was; his plans were not only deep and devious, but laid out for a long time in advance. He began to make himself conspicuous by his long..."

Good points, I hadn’t really thought about him like that - nasty man!

And Alfred was right there with Bertie - equally conniving, cold-hearted and planning a murder well in advance. Brrr!

I think the big surprise to me was Mrs. Mercer's long acquaintance with Bertie. I wasn't expecting that she had known him since he was a child.

So here's one thing that really bothered me: how many times did Hilary accidentally bump into Mrs. Mercer? I count 3: in the beginning on the train (okay, fine), after the bike accident (you could argue for this one since she'd been looking for Mrs. Mercer in the area, but winding up at her house is a big stretch), and in the end up in Glasgow (indefensible from a logical point of view). And each of these meetings was critical to the plot.

Also, we didn't see a lot of Mrs. Silver, and I love her, but every time she showed up on the page she had some major piece of evidence. It might have been nice to have been shown that rather than just told after the fact?

So, not my favorite of the three Mrs. Silver mysteries we've read, but I'd be game for another one sometime. I'll probably argue for jumping to one of her later books, though, in the hope that Wentworth's plotting improved with experience. :)

I didn't mind the first two coincidences, but I had to think about the third one, and what I decided was that Bertie had a definite plan to get rid of the Mercers, so he sent them to Glasgow. He was hoping to implicate Francis in their murders (and then do away with Francis, too, before he could yell, uh, bloody murder). But Francis foiled him by dying before it could play out.

The coincidence I didn't like, though, was that Hilary looked up and saw Mrs. Mercer in the fifth floor window. I can't find a good reason for that one. If it had been Mrs. Mercer seeing Hilary and then attracting her attention by, say, throwing a teapot down at her... But, no. Clumsy, Miss Wentworth, clumsy.

I remember the first time that I read this, I thought the whole Glasgow scene just didn't work!

I think Francis was likely murdered by one of our villains. I just checked, and Mrs. Silver suggests that he may well have had some help falling down the stairs. But luckily he had kept the wig and given it to his secret wife. :)

Thank you, Tadiana and Karlyne, for mentioning the eye-rolling coincidence of Hilary meeting the Mercers in Glasgow. That meeting bothered me, as there was no obvious reason for the Mercers to be in Scotland.

I thought that the clunky plotting might be because this was an early effort by Wentworth. However, she already had more than 20 books under her belt by the time this one came out. The character of Miss Silver, now, was still a work in progress, as this is only her 2nd appearance.

Well, so much for my excuse for Wentworth!

Barb in Maryland wrote: "Thank you, Tadiana and Karlyne, for mentioning the eye-rolling coincidence of Hilary meeting the Mercers in Glasgow. That meeting bothered me, as there was no obvious reason for the Mercers to be i..."

But the early work I have read by Ms Wentworth, The Annam Jewel was both clunky & silly.

I did think this was a step up from The Grey Mask but I'll probably end up giving both 3.5★

I thought Miss Silver was a better drawn character this time. I liked Hilary a lot - the silly rhymes, her positivity & all round bravery. Marion was a bit too Tragic Heroine for my tastes.

The book suffered very much from both too many coincidences & a lack of suspects. Still happy to read more Wentworth. :)

Agree with what others said here — the plot was pretty weak and wouldn't exist without all these coincidences, but Hilary was a great character. I hope she reforms Henry instead of the other way around!

Looking back at my reviews of Wentworth I noted "Miss Silver Comes to Stay", "Pilgrim's Rest" and "The Chinese Shawl" as having strong plots. I think I only posted reviews of ones that stood out plot-wise.

Very helpful suggestions for the next time we’re all up for a Miss Silver mystery. Thanks, Rachel!

The Chinese Shawl is #5, so we would only be skipping a couple. :)

Another interesting point is that Miss Silver does have some similarities to Miss Marple. & readers point out The Grey Mask is a couple of years older than Miss Marple's first outing Murder at the Vicarage

But Miss Silver was more bizarre eccentric in her first outing & Miss Marple wasn't as nice & fluffy in her first outing. I think possibly Wentworth was inspired by Christie, dug up an old character. made some changes & went with it. Given Christie's early success it's not likely to be a coincidence.

Interesting, Carol! I think Miss Marple just came first as a character though - I remember looking this up for some reason, and she first appeared in a magazine short story (The Tuesday Night Club) in 1927, a year before The Grey Mask.

Possibly just a coincidence that they both came up with similar characters originally, but your idea that Wentworth revived Miss Silver after being inspired by Christie sounds likely to me.

I've read quite a few of the early Wentworth standalones republished by Dean Street Press and I think almost all of them had pretty weak plots, as this one does - they all seem to be more thrillers than mysteries and have loads of wild coincidences, but they do have some great characters and I enjoy the way she writes.

I was hoping the Miss Silver books would have better plots - it sounds from the comments here as if some of the later ones do.

This is definitely not her best, some of the later Miss Silver's are definitely better like The Watersplash. I managed to figure out how it was done pretty early on and the meeting in Glasgow with the Mercer's was very clunky. Not my favourite in the series, but I do know there are better ones, so don't mind reading more of these.

Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ wrote: "And Alfred was right there with Bertie - equally conniving, cold-hearted and planning a murder well in advance. Brrr!"

Yes, and married the poor Mrs. just to keep her in line, close at hand in case he needed to silence her! Sad, I thought!

Barb in Maryland wrote: "I think the big surprise to me was Mrs. Mercer's long acquaintance with Bertie. I wasn't expecting that she had known him since he was a child."

Me, either, but she seemed very forgiving and protective of those she cared about, who gave her any attention. When you realize, her loyalty sprang from Bertie’s mother’s kindness to her when Albert got her “in trouble” as a young woman - and the two fiends exploited her feelings- infuriating! No wonder the poor thing was losing her marbles!

Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ wrote: "So here's one thing that really bothered me: how many times did Hilary accidentally bump into Mrs. Mercer? I count 3: in the beginning on the train (okay, fine), after the bike accident (you could ..."

Very good points, the incident in Glasgow really was over the top - and Hilary just rushing in there, ugh! After patiently waiting for Henry, on another street, to stay out of trouble...to decide to go back to the grimy, dangerous street, then just happen to look up, like what are you expecting to see, Henry waving from a window? She kind of lost me at that point, but it was the very end, so...and what a cinematic ending! I could almost picture it on the big screen, with big gestures and overacting all over the place! Maybe she was hoping for a film contract? I know my parents, both born in 1939, went to the movies every Saturday morning with other kids - serials were very popular, “The Adventures of Miss Silver” could have been a hit! Alfred was menacing enough, Hilary’s bike smash in the fog was very dramatic...honestly, as a newbie to Miss Silver, I just went with the flow, I was just thrilled to find a Miss Marple-like character I hadn’t read. I’d be willing to try another, as Tadiana suggests, maybe a later one, to compare her plotting?

Judy wrote: "I've read quite a few of the early Wentworth standalones republished by Dean Street Press and I think almost all of them had pretty weak plots, as this one does - they all seem to be more thrillers..."

I agree, I enjoyed the writing, and am glad to hear we can look forward to better plotting.

Karlyne wrote: "I didn't mind the first two coincidences, but I had to think about the third one, and what I decided was that Bertie had a definite plan to get rid of the Mercers, so he sent them to Glasgow. He wa..."

Ok, good I’m not the only one who was scratching my head at the Glasgow scene...

Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ wrote: "Well, so much for my excuse for Wentworth!"

No, it was still fun, I’d read another!

Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Barb in Maryland wrote: "Thank you, Tadiana and Karlyne, for mentioning the eye-rolling coincidence of Hilary meeting the Mercers in Glasgow. That meeting bothered me, as there was no obvious reaso..."

Great summation, I feel the same about reading more Silver.

Rachel wrote: "Agree with what others said here — the plot was pretty weak and wouldn't exist without all these coincidences, but Hilary was a great character. I hope she reforms Henry instead of the other way ar..."

Thanks, Rachel, for these titles, I found this one entertaining, despite the weak plotting and coincidences!

Carolien wrote: "This is definitely not her best, some of the later Miss Silver's are definitely better like The Watersplash. I managed to figure out how it was done pretty early on and the meeting i..."

I haven't read The Watersplash - I have a fairly decent collection, but not that one!

It's kind of a trope in books/movies -- the hero tells the heroine to stay put until he gets back, and she says to herself: "Who does he think he is, telling me what to do?" And then rushes into danger from whence she usually has to be extricated with great trouble. I must admit I'm getting tired of it. Claire in the Outlander was famous for doing that no matter what Jamie told her. I could probably dig up another dozen instances.

Anyway, hopefully Hilary gained some common sense without losing her joie de vivre, and Henry learned to be a bit less of a stuffed shirt. Both were delightful characters and that made up for some plot weaknesses. (I cottoned on to the red hair early on).

I stayed up late to finish the book and that's always a good sign!

Elinor wrote: "It's kind of a trope in books/movies -- the hero tells the heroine to stay put until he gets back, and she says to herself: "Who does he think he is, telling me what to do?" And then rushes into da..."

In Mr. Zero, the trope gets turned upside down, but I won't say anymore...

Karlyne wrote: "Elinor wrote: "It's kind of a trope in books/movies -- the hero tells the heroine to stay put until he gets back, and she says to herself: "Who does he think he is, telling me what to do?" And then..."

Oh, color me intrigued...

Karlyne wrote: In Mr. Zero, the trope gets turned upside down, but I won't say anymore...


Ooh, interesting! I own this Wentworth but have not read it yet. I'll move it higher in the pile.

Rachel wrote: "Karlyne wrote: In Mr. Zero, the trope gets turned upside down, but I won't say anymore...


Ooh, interesting! I own this Wentworth but have not read it yet. I'll move it higher in the pile."

In spite of its dumb name, I like it!

Autocratic man, twitterpated girl--meh! I think I'm in the minority here; not finding this charming at all. I'm more interested in the detective then I am in spending time in Hillary's empty head. I'm forcing myself to finish this, but only because I have to know the details of the evil plot. I really hate so-called heroines who repeatedly run into dangerous situations and refuse to learn better. I stop thinking they should be protected and start thinking that they should face some consequences for their idiocy! It's my least favorite mystery trope ever!

Crankily,

Although I'll agree that Henry is high-handed (until you get some inkling of his thought process), I think Hilary puts herself in dangerous situations not because she's stupid or even flighty, but because she's never been in those kinds of situations before. Of course she "knows" that there's a murderer out there, but that's just not the kind of knowledge that our brains are really programmed to believe. Her main motive is not Catching the Murderer, but Helping Marian to Get Her Life Back, so her heart really is calling the shots. And I do like that fear (which she does acknowledge) isn't going to stop her. Kind of a nice, loyal friend, really, when you think that she could have just let the whole thing go and not involved herself!

She is a nice person and someone I would like in real life, just frustrating to read about. Sometimes there is a fine line between being brave and being stupid, and for me Hillary has definitely crossed it multiple times. I could deal with it up until the incident with the car, but after that she should've known what she was dealing with. Some fears should be overcome, others should be respected. She should have consulted with Henry or others to arrange to trap the guilty, instead of confronting them with no weapon and no plan. This is the kind of thing that makes men think that girls can't take care of themselves and don't have any sense!