Dickensians! discussion

DOMBEY AND SON: THREAD 1



This is Charles Dickens's 7th novel, and was originally titled:
"Dealings With The Firm Of Dombey And Son Wholesale, Retail, and for Exportation".

Publication sequence for the original serial:

I – October 1846 (chapters 1–4)
II – November 1846 (chapters 5–7)
III – December 1846 (chapters 8–10)
IV – January 1847 (chapters 11–13)
V – February 1847 (chapters 14–16)
VI – March 1847 (chapters 17–19)
VII – April 1847 (chapters 20–22)
VIII – May 1847 (chapters 23–25)
IX – June 1847 (chapters 26–28)
X – July 1847 (chapters 29–31)
XI – August 1847 (chapters 32–34)
XII – September 1847 (chapters 35–38)
XIII – October 1847 (chapters 39–41)
XIV – November 1847 (chapters 42–45)
XV – December 1847 (chapters 46–48)
XVI – January 1848 (chapters 49–51)
XVII – February 1848 (chapters 52–54)
XVIII – March 1848 (chapters 55–57)
XIX-XX – April 1848 (chapters 58–62)

We will begin this novel on 14th February, reading and discussing ONE chapter a day, as we have done before :) This time though, we will have a day's break in between each installment (about every three chapters, as you can see from Charles Dickens's schedule above). Time to breathe and collect our thoughts!

An index of Chapters, with links, will follow in the next post.

This is a list of all the chapters in this thread, beginning with Dombey and Son's first chapter, which is the first chapter in Charles Dickens's original monthly installment 1. Clicking on each chapter will automatically link you to the summary for that chapter:

I – October 1846 (chapters 1–4)
Chapter 1 (Message 27)
Chapter 2 (Message 66)
Chapter 3 (Message 120)
Chapter 4 (Message 156)

II – November 1846 (chapters 5–7)
Chapter 5 (Message 220)
Chapter 6 (Message 248)
Chapter 7 (Message 289)

III – December 1846 (chapters 8–10)
Chapter 8 (Message 339)
Chapter 9 (Message 361)
Chapter 10 (Message 397)

Introduction to Our Read:

The novel's full title is "Dombey and Son: Dealings with the Firm of Dombey and Son: Wholesale, Retail and for Exportation". During 1844-47, the railways were just starting to be developed, and the impact this has on London life is a major aspect of the book.

Charles Dickens was between 34 and 36 years old when writing Dombey and Son. He began writing it in 1846, whilst living abroad in Lausanne, Switzerland. Before the novel was completed, he would spend time in Paris and then return to England.

He also published one of his Christmas books, The Battle of Life, was directing and acting in various theatrical productions, and set up "Urania Cottage" (for "fallen women") with his friend the philanthropist Angela Burdett-Coutts, all within the space of time when he was writing this novel. As always, he was pushing himself to the absolute maximum!

It was initially published in 20 monthly installments published between October 1st 1846 and April 1848. At the same time as the final installment, the book was published in 62 chapters, illustrated by "Phiz" (Hablot Knight Browne).

Unlike his earlier novels, which were unplanned, Charles Dickens had worked out a rough plan of the plot as early as July 1846. The structure is more straightforward, but he has a bleaker perspective on personal relationship and behaviour than earlier novels. There is humour, but less of it than in his early novels. It was to come to the fore more later, as we saw, with David Copperfield.

***Please remember, we read one chapter a day which is 62 chapters in all, and this is how we comment too. Obviously how much and how fast you read is up to you! This is just a way which proved popular last time, and helps to anchor the read :)

PLEASE observe our courtesy rule ie., do not include spoilers! Everything up to the current chapter is fine, but not beyond. If you would like to say something which includes later events for some reason, please use the spoiler tags. Newbies, please read the thread on Spoilers.

Charles Dickens wrote two prefaces, one in 1848 and one in 1867. Please don't read these just yet, (unless you already know the book!) They are short, but a bit revealing. We can forgive the Inimitable; he isn't intending to spoil anything, but most of his readers would already be familiar with the book. They would have read it as a monthly serial in previous years.

Just a week to go! I know several who are joning in reading with this one, and hope for even more. Please feel free to comment :)

The optional and flexible side read, by the way, is on our bookshelf (if you want to peek!) and will be officially announced once Dombey and Son has got going properly.

Hello, Bionic Jean!

I am new here, so please excuse me for abruptly commenting on your thread. However, I wanted to be clear how the reading schedule went since the first post says, "reading and discussing ONE chapter a day, as we have done before :) This time though, we will have a day's break in between each installment...", and then your last post says, "we read one chapter a day which is 62 chapters in all..". I ask only because the day off in between installments gives me a fighting chance to keep up and read the novel.

I would also like to ask, if it's not too much, what is the next novel after "Dombey and Son"? In case, I skip or cannot keep up.

After asking my questions, I guess it's only right I introduce myself briefly. My name is Alicia and I live in South Carolina. One of my bucket list items is to read all of Dickens (along with a couple other authors) before I get too old. I thought with a New Year, Pandemic and all, it would be a good time as any to start on this endeavor. I have never read "Dombey and Son", so have no clue what I'm getting myself into here. Embarrassingly I will admit that I have only read "A Christmas Carol" and half-a**ed "Great Expectations" in college. I got my degree in accounting, not English, so my focus was elsewhere at the time. So that is my excuse. Anyways....

I greatly appreciate the assistance Jean! Hopefully, I can keep up , but if not, hope to catch the group discussion in the summer. Take care!

Hi Alicia,

Please do join in, and don't worry! LINK HERE, for a more complete answer :)

When I was talking about Dombey and Son on YouTube the YouTube automatic captions kept writing "Zombie and Son" which was amusing the first couple of times... but got a little tedious after repeated mentions of the book.

LOL I can imagine, Jim :D

Are you joining us for Dombey and Son?

Bionic Jean wrote: "LOL I can imagine, Jim :D

Are you joining us for Dombey and Son?"
I might follow the discussion, I read Dombey and Son back in November, so it is a little early for a reread (I'm currently working my way through Anna Karenina, in which I noticed a reference to Mr Podsnap from Our Mutual Friend).

Sure, Jim, please just pop in and add your thoughts :)

Bionic Jean wrote: "***Please remember, we read one chapter a day which is 62 chapters in all, and this is how we comment too. Obviously how much and how fast you read is up to you! This is just a way which proved pop..."

Thanks for the warning about the prefaces. I dislike when introductions reveal too much of the story. I want to enjoy it as it unfolds!

I will be taking part in the read of Dombey and Son. Picking up the book at the library tomorrow.

I hope to join this read too.

I have a vintage copy ready to read!

That's great, Jim!

Oh and Trisha and Rosemarie too :) Cross-posted!

Just 5 days to go ... please do begin early if you like, anyone (as long as you don't comment on the text yet please!) There's a lot in these first chapters. In fact as you can see, the first installment contains 4 chapters, rather than the usual 3, so we have 4 days on the trot without a break.

I'll post the first chapter summary on SUNDAY, the first official day of our read. I'm really looking forward to discussing this one :)

I plan on joining as well. I am new to the group so this is my first group read here. I will definitely read ahead, but I will avoid posting spoilers. I am quite excited to start since it's been a few years since I last read a long Dickens novel.

I’m looking forward to rereading this one, I remember liking it... that’s about it!

Welcome Laurie and France-Andrée :) It's great that this book will be unfamiliar - or forgotten - to so many!

I'm excited because this is a Dickens I have not read before!

I’m about 50 pages in and loving it so far!!

3 days to go :)

Woo hoo getting excited to read this!

The countdown has begun, so I'll post another bit of information, to set the mood :)

Another Brief Introduction:

As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, Charles Dickens wrote the first few chapters of Dombey and Son in Lausanne, Switzerland, where he had gone in June 1846. At the time he was rereading one of his favourite novels, The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman by Laurence Sterne, which he had first read as a young boy.

In Lausanne, he unpacked his book box, and said: “Whatever passage my thumb rests on, I shall take as having reference to my work”. His thumb stopped on: “What a work it is likely to turn out! Let me begin it!”

So Charles Dickens began writing Dombey and Son, on 27th June, and 4 weeks later he sent his first four chapters to his great friend and mentor, John Forster, for his opinion. On 8th August he began the next installment, and again sent it to John Forster in London. Between 26th October and 9th November Charles Dickens wrote the 3rd installment, which had to be cut by 3 pages. By 6th December, Charles Dickens was in Paris, and it was there that he began the 4th installment, finishing it when he was back home in London on 15th December. But …

By Christmas Day Charles Dickens was back in Paris! He began work on the 5th installment on the last day of the year, ending it on 15th January 1847. He had intended to complete it two days earlier, to coincide with a special anniversary, but I’ll wait until we get to that part to explain more. :) He certainly began this novel with a whirlwind of activity in his personal life. Who assumed the Victorians all stayed put at home …?

And a little more …

About the dedication:

Charles Dickens dedicated Dombey and Son to The Marchioness of Normanby. Her husband, the Marquis was the British Ambassador in Paris, and Dickens had met the couple often during the writing of Dombey and Son,

The Marquis was also a writer, - Constantine Henry Phipps Normanby - and had written The English in Italy By C.H. Phipps , and a novel Matilda: A Tale of the Day (both in 1825), and Yes and No: A Tale of the Day; Vol. II (1828).

In 1848, at the time of Dombey and Son, the Marquis was keeping a journal in Paris called A Year of Revolution. from a Journal Kept in Paris in 1848. This brought him into violent controversy with Louis Blanc, and he later came into conflict with Henry John Temple Palmerston (Lord Palmerston) and William Ewart Gladstone, (after he had retired from public service), on questions of French and Italian policy.

Charles Dickens himself said at the time that if any of his writings were to last, it would surely be Dombey and Son! It is a middle work (his seventh novel) so perhaps he would change his mind later …. Nevertheless, right from the start, this wonderful novel engages our emotions; it is is a powerful and moving book.

So the countdown has now begun, and tomorrow we are to read and discuss chapter 1 :)

Chapter 1:

In the first installment we are introduced to the Dombey family:

“Dombey was about eight-and-forty years of age. Son about eight-and-forty minutes.”

The mother of the infant is upstairs, not doing very well, but Mr. Dombey is exultant about his child, Paul:

“The House will once again … be not only in name but in fact Dombey and Son.”



Mr. Dombey pictured by the caricaturist 'Kyd' (Joseph Clayton Clarke)

Although Mr. Dombey is stern and pompous, the birth of a son, a “long-looked-for event”, has softened him a little, and his wife is surprised when he calls her “my dear”.

Mr. Dombey seems unaware that his wife is very weak. He has but a single thought:

“‘Dombey and Son,’ … Those three words conveyed the one idea of Mr Dombey’s life. The earth was made for Dombey and Son to trade in, and the sun and moon were made to give them light.”

He has worked for the firm for nearly twenty years, and been married for ten of them. It has been a disappointment to him that they had no children:

“—To speak of; none worth mentioning. There had been a girl some six years before, … But what was a girl to Dombey and Son! … —a bad Boy—nothing more.”

Little Florence, the “bad boy” mentioned, is timid, clinging to her mother “with a desperate affection”, as if she were far younger than six years. Her father does not think this is a good idea, and calls for the nurse, who summons a rather grand doctor, Doctor Parker Peps, one of the Court Physicians. He explains to Mr. Dombey the seriousness of his wife’s condition. However he apparently keeps forgetting her name, referring instead to his aristocratic patient “Her Grace the Duchess”, and eventually calling her “the Countess of Dombey”. The family doctor, Mr. Pilkins, is also present and concurs that it is up to the patient to make “a vigorous effort”.

The narrator tells us that Mr. Dombey would be sad if his wife died; it would be a cause for regret, but that he would be cool and businesslike about the fact.

We next meet Mr. Dombey’s sister, Louisa Dombey Chick, who bursts in full “of suppressed emotion”. She is middle-aged, and dresses in “a very juvenile manner.” She says that the baby is “a perfect Dombey”, so like his father. Fanny, his wife needs to “make an effort” to recover, she insists, and says firmly: “Knowing it to be required of her, as a duty, of course she’ll make it.” When she gave birth to George and Frederick, of course, it was far more exhausting.

A friend of Louisa’s tap at the door. This is Miss Tox “a long lean figure wearing a faded air”, as if she is a piece of cloth which has been washed too often. She is not very wealthy, but makes the most of her limited means. Miss Tox seems almost ecstatic at the news—and to have the opportunity to meet Mr. Dombey. She has made a pincushion as a gift, stitching the words “Welcome little Dombey”, although she cleverly says that she would much have preferred to embroider “Welcome, Master Dombey”.






Early 'fancies', or sketches of Mr. Dombey, by 'Phiz' (Hablot Knight Browne), before his friend Charles Dickens had written very much of the story.

After Mr. Dombey has left the room, Miss Tox sings his praises to Louisa. However, Mr. Dombey soon returns, looking very pale. Louisa will stand no nonsense about Fanny:

“there is nothing wanting but an effort on Fanny’s part. And that effort,’ she continued, taking off her bonnet, and adjusting her cap and gloves, in a business-like manner, ‘she must be encouraged, and really, if necessary, urged to make.’”

“… I shall have to be quite cross with you, if you don’t rouse yourself. It’s necessary for you to make an effort … this is a world of effort you know, Fanny, and we must never yield, when so much depends upon us.”

But all her efforts to encourage the patient to rally round are of no use, and the doctors can do no more.

Florence, the tiny child calls her mother’s name, and her mother gives a trace of a gentle smile, but:

“how little breath there was! … clinging fast to that slight spar within her arms, the mother drifted out upon the dark and unknown sea that rolls round all the world.”

What an amazingly powerful and well-written opening chapter! Charles Dickens really is at the height of his powers here in this middle-period novel. It’s moving, and entertaining—both of these—but also has so much depth too. What strikes me most about this first chapter is the humour amidst the tragedy.

Charles Dickens is relating a tragic event, and yet we are invited to laugh at the two doctors, and the sister and her friend, as well as at Mr. Dombey himself. This takes a little of the sting away from an important fact we have learned; that Mr. Dombey does not care for his own daughter at all—as a point of principle.

Florence might as well be a piece of furniture; she is not an asset to the family firm, and will not continue his dynasty. He must have a son! We worry now about what will happen to that tiny little girl. And it looks as if his baby son may not have life so easy, either. Is this simply humour, or foreshadowing, when the baby is:

“sitting in front of the fire [with] his fists curled up and clenched … squaring at existence for having come on him so unexpectedly.”

Mr. Dombey has such a stiff upper lip and is an extreme portrait of a Victorian gentleman. He is a perfect example of someone who was raised and educated to be a leader of society; brought up to set an example of how one ought to behave. Mr. Dombey has perfect composure. He is reserved and distant in his behaviour, and also so proud and vain, that he believes the world revolves around him. Of his wife, he complacently believes:

“a matrimonial alliance with himself must, in the nature of things, be gratifying and honourable to any woman of common sense”, which needs little comment!

Mr. Dombey has financial security, is a member of the English ruling class—brought up to lead, and rule the British Empire—and probably believes it is inappropriate to “bend” even just a little.

I am reminded of the beginning of David Copperfield, which was also full of humour, but very, very different! Even though there was (technically) only one parent, David was a much-wanted child right from his birth. Little Paul is too—but we wonder at what a hard, unbending parent has been left in charge of him.

Do we think Fanny had a previous sweetheart? I’m thinking of these lines:

“Of those years he had been married, ten—married, as some said, to a lady with no heart to give him; whose happiness was in the past, and who was content to bind her broken spirit to the dutiful and meek endurance of the present.”

Why did Florence’s mama marry Mr. Dombey, if she did not love him? Was it merely expedient? Florence is only six years old, so it can’t be that Fanny was carrying Florence, but this sentence does seem to signify that Mrs. Dombey had been broken-hearted and worn down for a very long time. I expect she had got to an age where there was pressure by her family not to miss this chance of marrying an eminently respectable—and wealthy—gentleman.

And a little more …

Motifs:

I particularly noticed two of Charles Dickens’s favourite motifs, which kept coming into this chapter:

1. Time:

There was quite a lot of mention of clocks and watches, and when Fanny was at the point of death, the doctors’ watches were having a race! It was funny, but has a deeper meaning. Charles Dickens always uses timepieces as standing for the transitoriness of human endeavour, or effort. This episode really hammers home how short life can be.

There’s already a great contrast in the way Time “marks” father and son wrinkling or smoothing with his scythe:

“On the brow of Dombey, Time and his brother Care had set some marks, as on a tree that was to come down in good time … while the countenance of Son was crosssed and recrossed with a thousand little creases, which the same deceitful Time would take delight in smoothing out and wearing away with the flat part of his scythe, as in preparation of the surface for his deeper operations.”

The first thing Mr. Dombey offers his son as a toy, is his pocket watch. He probably likes watches, as he likes things to be done in an orderly, efficient fashion, at the appropriate time. Mr. Dombey is teaching his son “how to be a Dombey” even in his cradle!

It could also be a covert reference to the Industrial Age which was just beginning, where all individuality was crushed, and everyone was ruled by mechanisation and time, in the name of “progress”. Efficiency is his watchword (if you’ll pardon the pun!) Mr. Dombey even regrets his wife’s death in completely cold-hearted, practical terms, i.e. of losing her function of feeding his son!

I also like the way Florence sees her father, just by his symbols: his boots, his “shining buttons”, and his watch.

2. Water:

Particularly the sea. We noticed in David Copperfield that someone on the coast only dies if the tide is going out. Other deaths may be referred to as “crossing the water”, and if Charles Dickens mentions any sort of water, river or waves, this always presages some major event or change for a character.

Dickens emotionally ropes us in during the first chapter. We read about the death of the mother, a common occurrence in Victorian England. There is so much love between Florence and her mother, but Florence is left alone. Mr Dombey seems heartless in the way he views Florence.

It also is troubling that he has such lofty expectations for his newborn son, with no consideration that little Paul may want to have another career. The little baby is just a few minutes old and his father has his life mapped out for him.

I'm in, having started yesterday! Most likely I won't keep up, but I'll finish it eventually, and will follow the thread(s) and comment when I can. :-)

My only previous read of this book was a bit after 1970, or perhaps a bit before (pre-Goodreads, I didn't keep records :-( ). But after all these years, I still very well remembered Dombey sitting by the bed smugly exulting that the firm would again truly be "Dombey and Son!" And I also recalled Dickens' dry, deadpan mention of how in the character's mind everything revolved around the firm, to the point that A. D. no longer stood for "Anno Domini," but for "Anno Dombey --and Son!" It's masterful the way Dickens reveals character so completely in so few words.

It was very upsetting to read the attitude Mr. Dombey has towards little Florence, she is like her mother only a possession something that is there but not really required. I wonder if men reading this at the time saw the problem with the attitude or thought it right? Probably depended on the man.

I like the time motif, clocks ticking do make you aware of every seconds especially when they are running out like for Mrs. Dombey.

Connie said: "no consideration that little Paul may want to have another career"

Indeed, but just as in Victorian England as you say, death in childbirth was common, so was the assumption that the son would follow in his father's footsteps. A "different career" was not thought of until much later.

If the Dombeys had been just a little more wealthy - "landed gentry" - and landowners, the rules were just as strict. The first son took over the Estate, the second son went into the Army, and the third son went into the Church! There was no choice.

Did you notice too that all the first male Dombey sons were called "Paul". The eldest son is the firm just as his father and his grandfather have been.

Nice comment, Connie :)

Werner wrote: "Anno Dombey --and Son!" It's masterful the way Dickens reveals character so completely in so few words ..."

Yes, doesn't he just? Great quotation, Werner! And welcome, it's great to see you here in this read :)

I always forget a lot of the details when I come back to one of his novels! My previous slow read of Dombey and Son was maybe be 5 years ago - but many aspects are a fresh delight :) It's noticeable since I happen to be rereading another Victorian novel alongside. It was even written in the same year (1848), and yet those chapters are short, and not nearly so crammed with events, characters and hidden depths.

France-Andrée wrote: "I wonder if men reading this at the time saw the problem with the attitude or thought it right? ..."

I'm afraid this was likely to have been the "proper" conduct for gentlemen, although in private they may have had softer feelings, of course.

Charles Dickens himself loved children, and spent many hours playing with his own, and putting on theatrical events for them. But then he was never thought to be the "cream" of society - rather he was considered a jumped-up dandy. He dressed far too outrageously too, for a "gentleman".

Mr. Dombey is behaving perfectly correctly, but the narrator spots chinks in his armour.

Good to see you in for this one too, France-Andrée.

I, too, am heartbroken for Florence. When we were introduced to her as unobserved coming into the chamber where her mother lies, the verb is past perfect tense There had been a girl some six years before. At first I thought this was a child who had died. Just not as significant as the son!

As for Mrs. Dombey, the weaker sex as was thought then, wasn't it quite interesting that the doctor's and the sister, Mrs. Chick believed she would come through with 'just a little effort'? What exactly did they mean by that? Possibly a mind over matter idea? If she willed herself better, she would be? I know women died in childbirth regularly and the means for helping the various conditions weren't present. How sad to be a woman then whose duty was to bear a son and that her life was in the hands of inefficient medical care.

I am excited to read more and definitely saw the places where Dickens placed the humor amongst the perilous scene. The watch race was fantastic! I could just picture how this could be portrayed visually quite effectively.

From previous readings, I’ve learned that a Dickens novel is no picnic lunch or tea-time snack — it’s always going to be a full course meal with all the trimmings; it merits a reader’s thoughtful attention to details, it has to be enjoyed one bite at a time. So, as we begin reading “Dombey and Son”, I plan to be mindful of several things, beginning with the mood of the novel. Then, I will focus on Dickens’ characters — even the minor ones and their state of mind; they’re always worth individual attention. Dickens takes great pains to enrich each of them with colorful and insightful personalities, placing them in context and then setting them in motion, like a master puppeteer. And of course, it’s the overarching theme of the work that will quickly become the dominant force, as Dickens delivers his particular message, his take on mid-19th century British life.

It is sad to be a female in Mr. Dombey's household. As noted already, Florence is all but ignored and hardly considered as a Dombey child. But Mrs. Dombey also matters little except as a mother to his son. It is mentioned that the Dombeys have been married for ten years and others referred to her as "a lady with no heart to give him; whose happiness was in the past and who was content to bind her broken spirit to the dutiful and meek endurance of the the present." We don't know what broke her spirit, but we can guess that she never shared her feelings with Mr. Dombey. It is stated that he thought she was happy and she couldn't help being so since being married to him was such an honor. Poor woman married to a man with so little consideration for her and their daughter as people who matter.

Oh, I so love all these comments! Their depth adds so many layers to this reading. The passage that jumped out for me was this description of the business Dombey and Son. Have I ever read a better description of being privileged, entitled and elite?

“The earth was made for Dombey and Son to trade in, and the sun and moon were made to give them light. Rivers and seas were formed to float their ships; rainbows gave them promise of fair weather; winds blew for or against their enterprises; stars and planets circled in their orbits, to preserve inviolate a system of which they were the centre.”

The entirety of the world revolves only for Mr. Dombey and his son. Goodness gracious, so full of himself!!

Lori wrote: "At first I thought this was a child who had died. Just not as significant as the son! ..."

Yes, when that hits you it is so poignant - well spotted!

Actually Charles Dickens as narrator switches tenses quite a bit in this novel, for effect. Sometimes you may notice that he is talking in the present tense, and it feels so much more immediate.

We know, from primary sources from that day, that there were Victorian and Georgian males (even in the monied classes) who cared deeply for their wives, and who cherished their children of both genders. Likewise, there were males who weren't totally wrapped up in their money-making businesses and in class snobbery. (Some of Dickens' own novels furnish examples.) IMO, he could count on a sympathetic audience among his readers, who would pick up and appreciate his critique here.

On the other hand, the attitudes that Dombey exemplifies were also pretty common (human nature being what it is, it embodies both good and bad possibilities; and in any time and place, both will be realized, in different individuals --and sometimes in the same individuals), especially among the upper classes. When Dickens aims his satire at something in real life, he aims at a target that's real, and big enough to be worth targeting.

Jim wrote: "it merits a reader’s thoughtful attention to details, it has to be enjoyed one bite at a time ..."

Absolutely - I like your approach, Jim. And that's why we read just one chapter, and then comment. Often we could say so much more ... but have to move on really.

"And of course, it’s the overarching theme of the work that will quickly become the dominant force"

I'm not sure if you read my introductory comments, but you may notice a difference in style and structure between this one and his 6 earlier novels.

Dombey and Son does make a change in how Charles Dickens approached his writing - and it shows! This is about the first novel where he carefully planned it all out. That's why he has managed to give us such a masterly first chapter. He focused far more on the preparation of the story than he ever did in his previous novels.

Laurie wrote: "others referred to her as "a lady with no heart to give him; whose happiness was in the past ..."

Yes, I quoted this, and suggested that we might like to speculate on Fanny's previous sweetheart. But it could just indicate that she has been worn down.

"Florence is all but ignored and hardly considered as a Dombey child"

Indeed we must dread what is in her future.

Bridget wrote: "Oh, I so love all these comments! Their depth adds so many layers to this reading ..."

I'm happy you're able to join in this one Bridget - and Laurie and Lori too! Please forgive me if I don't mention you ... it's fantastic that so many of us are starting this together today. I think you will love it :)

The paragraph you quote is one my my favourites from this chapter :) (I included the first part in my summary). I agree, it is so revealing of the man's pride and self-centredness, in such a short space. Everyone is seen in the context of how they relate to him, and this gives them their value. His sister Louisa has this same Dombey vanity.

Lori wrote: "I, too, am heartbroken for Florence. When we were introduced to her as unobserved coming into the chamber where her mother lies, the verb is past perfect tense There had been a girl some six years ..."

I agree with Lori. My impression was that Mrs Dombey was considered to be making a lot of fuss about childbirth, as though it was a minor ailment which she could have chosen to ignore instead of making a fuss! It’s bad enough that men thought that way, but I find it really shocking that other women thought it too. It also seemed significant that the male doctors were in the house but not actually helping the patient - was that just for propriety, or because they were too self-important?

Werner wrote: "We know, from primary sources from that day, that there were Victorian and Georgian males (even in the monied classes) who cared deeply for their wives, and who cherished their children of both genders ..."

There were some, but also this was the age of hypocrisy. If it served a Victorian benefactor's charitable image to be seen as such, then a reserved demeanour would still have been their "public" face. Their campaigns would still have to be consistent with what was considered correct behaviour.

By far the Victorian norm - and desired position - in affluent society was to only value their children if they could behave and be presented as little adults. There's even a saying about it: "Children should be seen and not heard". (Perhaps it is solely English.)

Poorer families would value their children more, as they could earn money for the family - or in the worst case scenario, they could be sold for cash :(

In neither sphere of life was there much value placed on play, or displays of affection and when this happened, it must have been behind closed doors, to keep up appearances.

Mr. Dombey wasn't very unusual in this - he was just a man of his time. The sooner little Paul grows up, the better. He just needs to get through this inconvenient time of childhood as efficiently as possible.

"Some of Dickens' own novels furnish examples."

Whenever Charles Dickens showed men caring for their children, it was usually a deserving case, the "noble poor" - except in his early novels, where a child may have been a mouthpiece for Charles Dickens's own ideas. But by all means give an example!

"IMO, he could count on a sympathetic audience among his readers" - he could indeed, but many of his readers were poor - too poor to read! They would save up and pay a ha'penny to have the latest installment read to them, or go and watch Charles Dickens perform his stories in the theatre. He always insisted that the first few rows were free, or very cheap, for his poorest fans.

"the attitudes that Dombey exemplifies were also pretty common ... especially among the upper classes"

Yes!

Trisha wrote: "Mrs Dombey was considered to be making a lot of fuss about childbirth ... It’s bad enough that men thought that way, but I find it really shocking that other women thought it too ..."

The other women were:

1. Mr. Dombey's sister Louisa, who always defers to her brother and flatters him, as this confers his high status on her, if she can be associated with him. She has the Dombey "blood", and you can see what a twerp she has in a husband!

So she always sides with Mr. Dombey. In this case too, it's a way of boasting how brave and stoical she was herself in childbirth. Louisa often says life is about "making an effort" - but she really means that everyone else should do this, and also keep quiet about it! She is just as self-centred as her brother.

2. Lucretia Tox. She agrees with everything Louisa Chick says, because the Dombeys are a important family, and she is on her own. Others have suggested that she may have an ulterior motive in being quite so helpful to Mr. Dombey.

Fanny too, never had the Dombey blood. She was just tolerated as someone to produce an heir. If they could denigrate her they would.

"the male doctors were in the house but not actually helping the patient - was that just for propriety, or because they were too self-important?"

The doctors:

There are two doctors. One is the family doctor, and the other a society doctor. The society doctor is a snob, (and fits your description of "too self-important"!) which is why he keeps calling Fanny by an aristocratic title (in my summary). He does not care for his patient as an individual, but only her position. The family doctor is in awe of this important man, and will not say anything against him.

So you see, none of them are really responding to Fanny as an individual, or the pain of childbirth, or the tragedy of her death. The only one who does that is Florence. The others, male or female, are just behaving in character, according to their own agendas. It is heavily satirical.

Chapter 1 complete, and Dickens has pulled me into what promises to be another fantastic book. So much packed into this first chapter - we know the type/character of people involved so far, an idea of the importance of the firm Dombey and Son (at least in the eyes of these characters), an idea of the worth/value of females in the Dombey orbit.

Louisa Dombey Chick - I expect most females have encountered a woman like her. Whatever difficult female ailment/endeavor you've experienced, she has experienced the same 10 times more difficult/worse than you have. No empathy from this woman - just steel yourself, put forth the effort, and all will be well. :/

Fanny Dombey - "Of those years he had been married, ten - married, as some said, to a lady with no heart to give him; whose happiness was in the past, and who was content to bind her broken spirit to the dutiful and meek endurance of the present." Two ideas occurred to me when reading this - 1) Fanny was forced into marrying Dombey by her family, to make a good match/advance the family fortune, etc. 2) Fanny was optimistic early on in the marriage, but once she saw Mr. Dombey's reaction to the birth of a girl, that killed any affection she had for him. I think 2 is unlikely, unless Dombey really hid his true self during courting and turned on the charm. He doesn't seem to be a man who would do that - he's far too self-important to think he'd need to change himself to win a woman. Reading the comments, I'm intrigued by the idea of a past love that broke Fanny's heart and that she married Dombey to avoid spinsterhood.

Miss Tox - what a name :D "She was much given to the carrying about of small bags with snaps to them, that went off like little pistols when they were shut up;" I'm sure this point is irrelevant to the story and just adds to the characterization of Miss Tox. But it made me laugh so hard, because I remember my grandmother had a pocketbook with a metal kiss lock closure, and when she would snap that bag shut, it really did sound like a gunshot :D

Enjoyed the first chapter and all the comments - this will be a fun group read!

I'm enjoying the comments, which express my thoughts, and the first chapter, so I will only had this short statement:

I don't like Mr. Dombey!