Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy" discussion

Ok, dig into Appendix N: The Eldritch Roots of Dungeons and Dragons here!

If someone wants to read something off the actual Appendix N list instead of the anthology, then that ok too.

No kindle version? :(

Got my paperback just a few days ago. Need to carve some time to dig in. There are several authors I have not read before.

I'm trying to track down a digital listing of the Table of Contents so that folks like Lucio can track down the stories via other means (rather than getting a paperback). All the stories have been published before, I think. If anyone has that digitized feel welcome to post before me.

Mine's arrived, too

read four of them before -- possibly more, but the titles don't ring bells.

Some of them come back to me from adolescent readings. . . .

They do tend to be on the grim side.

It’s been 20+ years since I’ve read Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser...almost like reading it for the first time...again.

OK, a little late to the game, but here's the full contents, courtesy of ISFDB:

3 • How Sargoth Lay Siege to Zaremm • (1972) • short story by Lin Carter
7 • Tales of the Hawk • short fiction by Poul Anderson
31 • Jewels in the Forest • [Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser] • novelette by Fritz Leiber (variant of The Jewels in the Forest 1939)
71 • Empire of the Necromancers • [Zothique] • short story by Clark Ashton Smith (variant of The Empire of the Necromancers 1932)
81 • Turjaan of Miir • short fiction by Jack Vance
99 • A Hero at the Gates • [Cyrion] • (1979) • short story by Tanith Lee
115 • Tower of the Elephant • [Conan] • novelette by Robert E. Howard (variant of The Tower of the Elephant 1933)
145 • Song of Swords • short fiction by Fred Saberhagen
151 • Dreaming City • [The Elric Saga] • novelette by Michael Moorcock (variant of The Dreaming City 1961)
185 • The Doom That Came to Sarnath • [Dream Cycle] • (1920) • short story by H. P. Lovecraft
193 • Tower of Darkness • [Marcus & Diana] • (1975) • novelette by David Madison
217 • Straggler from Atlantis • [Kardios] • (1977) • novelette by Manly Wade Wellman
245 • The Man Who Sold Rope to the Gnoles • (1951) • short story by Margaret St. Clair
251 • Pit of Wings • [Ryre] • short story by Ramsey Campbell (variant of The Pit of Wings 1978)
267 • Black God's Kiss • [Jirel of Joiry] • (1934) • novelette by C. L. Moore
299 • The Fortress Unvanquishable, Save for Sacnoth • (1908) • short story by Lord Dunsany
319 • Sword of Dragons • short fiction by Frank Brunner
327 • Afterword (Appendix N.: The Eldritch Roots of Dungeons & Dragons) • essay by Ann VanderMeer
331 • Notes on the Stories (Appendix N.: The Eldritch Roots of Dungeons & Dragons) • essay by Peter Bebergal
335 • Appendix N: Inspirational and Educational Reading • essay by Peter Bebergal
337 • Acknowledgements (Appendix N.: The Eldritch Roots of Dungeons & Dragons) • essay by Peter Bebergal

A minor note: Fritz Leiber's 'The jewels in the forest' was originally published as 'Two sought adventure' in UNKNOWN. It was the first published Fafhrd and Grey Mouser story.

I ordered mine while sipping coffee this morning. From the ToC Joseph posted, I’ve read a good many in the past; however, there are a few I have not, and some it’s been a decade or three, and I look forward to the essays. I hope they are up to snuff.

For the group read, I will most likely select a few to read in April; March is pretty much spoken for with the fat stack of books I curbside picked up at my local library.

This will be one of those books I keep on my nightstand and pick up from time to time.

The city of Yethlyreom, in the Clark Ashton Smith story, sounds like the ideal place for some rogues to ransack. After the conclusion of the story of course.

Richard wrote: "The city of Yethlyreom, in the Clark Ashton Smith story, sounds like the ideal place for some rogues to ransack. After the conclusion of the story of course."

I see no possible way in which that could go wrong.

I think I own Tower of the Elephant in a several other books. I know I’ve read it several times. Luckily it’s been quite awhile ago, so this re-read isn’t redundant.

I read Tower of the Elephant, if not once a year, then probably every other. I might like it just a tad.

a bit of controversy brews ... https://jeffro.wordpress.com/2021/03/... ...I must admit, I, too, found the combination of title and non-Appendix authors a bit... odd.

@Jason

That article reads almost like he didn’t read the introduction to the book.

His points are valid, but Bebergal states why he made the choices he made for inclusion.

Maybe the exclusions leave room for a sequel?

Plus Bebergal specifically said that he was limiting himself to short stories only, which would at a minimum mean no Burroughs. And there may well have been licensing/rights issues for some of the other exclusions.

I think it would have been wiser to double up on actual Appendix authors than to include non-Appendix ones.

It seems like a “there can be only one!” argument that is unneeded. I can’t imagine two D&D fans agreeing upon what should be included. The inclusion of the authors from Swords Against Darkness is not that tenuous. Gygax did name that anthology in A-N. It might be a stretch to include stories from volumes other than SAD III, but not that much of a stretch. The question of “why weren’t C.L. Moore and CAS included in A-N? is a time of old question.

Wouldn’t it be a gas if Gygax’s Appendix N consisted simply of all the books he just happened to have in eye view as he wrote it?

I agree with Richard, the blog post reads like the author viewed the ToC and judged completely from that. I think he’s mostly ticked about sharing the title with his book; however, neither he nor Bebergal were the first to lay claim to the title.

Nice share, Jason. Great discussion.

Isn't there an Appendix N podcast? Any followers here? They need publicity too.... lol

Yes, there is! And they'll shortly be releasing an episode where they're joined by Peter Berbegal (the editor of this book) to talk about Elric of Melniboné.

https://appendixnbookclub.com/

And I was happy with the wider inclusions, especially David Madison, whose story (from Swords Against Darkness IΙΙ, I believe) was a previously undiscovered gem.

Does anyone know if David Madison wrote anything else? Or where to find it? I’m really enjoying his story Tower of Darkness.

Here's his listing from ISFDB. Unfortunately, it looks like most of what he published was just in 70s-era fanzines and hasn't ever been collected elsewhere. Maybe this would be a good project for DMR Books ...

http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?1...

Ty Joseph

It would indeed be an excellent project to undertake. I recall reading David Madison's short stories in Space & Time back in the seventies. He was a Texan. Sadly, he took his own life if I recall correctly. Also, at least at one time, Jessica Salmonson had the rights to his fiction, so perhaps a dialogue with her could ensue? But I heard this back in the seventies or eighties.

@ David C

I think Salmonson retains the rights because Bebergal especially thanks her for allowing the use of the Madison story. I would be eagerly read more of his short fiction if it were collected.

I absolutely agree with you. His stories should be collected and he should be added as a solid member of that group of us who were writing this fiction back then. Keep his name alive.

So far, I have only read Bebergal’s introduction, but I think I will dive in at least read Madison’s story this weekend.

“The Tower of Darkness” was an enjoyable read. I agree that a collection of David Madison’s stories would be an interesting read. I wrote Dave Ritzlin of DMR fame to suggest as much. He wasn’t against the idea, but is unsure how much interest there would be. Perhaps if more people contacted him and suggested the same?

If not a full blown collection perhaps a story or two in an upcoming anthology, just to generate an interest and awareness?

@Richard, I’m sold on the idea, but I admit my ignorance of how much work curating stories is. I literally have no idea how difficult it is or isn’t. Morbid thought (but not meant as such), how about an anthology of writers taken from us too soon?

@Clint

I like it.

That’s a sound idea. Howard and Wagner could be used as a draw to the anthology.

You might pitch that to Dave Ritzlin.

I think the one of the hardest parts of curating old stories would be determining the holder of the rights. Estates can be murky.

@Richard, I really like the idea of Howard and KEW as the “big name draws”; but, there are few S&S tales by REH that are not easily obtained (BUT, Dave did so once with Renegade Swords, he keeps surprising me, and hence I keep dipping into the well for more); KEW, I have a feeling his stories aren’t so easily obtainable (BUT, Dave surprised me again in Renegade Swords II, with a KEW story that BONUS, was new to me).

I will pitch it, but one pitch is whisper, several are a shout.

My thoughts

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5...

Appendix N: The Eldritch Roots of Dungeons and Dragons by Peter Bebergal

My rating: 4 of 5 stars


An excellent collection of 20th Century fantastic fiction drawn from the list of inspirational reading in Appendix N of the first Dungeon Master's Guide. This collection prompted me to reread favorites, like Robert E. Howard's Tower of the Elephant, and gave me a chance to read a few classic tales for the first time, such as CL Moore's Black God's Kiss, featuring Jirel of Joiry, a powerfully driven character similar to many of Howards, who is sent on a journey that combines Lovecraftian terror and person insight. My favorite was Clark Ashton Smith's Empire of the Necromancers. I had heard the praises of his Zothique stories, and I'll now put more effort in seeking them out.



View all my reviews

Richard wrote: "@ David C

I think Salmonson retains the rights because Bebergal especially thanks her for allowing the use of the Madison story. I would be eagerly read more of his short fiction if it were collec..."

Salmonson is listed in the credits as the literary executor for Madison's estate.

By the way, Tom Moldvay posted a different list of inspirational reading in the D&D Basic Set (1981): https://oldschoolfrp.tumblr.com/post/...

There was also an updated list (Appendix E) in the 5e PHB:

https://stepintorpgs.wordpress.com/20...

I was satisfied with this collection. My review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

It's a terrible shame to give this book a negative review because you are upset that it didn't adhere strictly to Appendix N. Some people did just that on Amazon.

I don't get it.

Jeffro Johnson doesn't have exclusive rights to 'Appendix N'. So why is he so miffed?

@Richard, I couldn’t agree more. It was the Amazon Bozos I attacked in my review. So obvious the one-star hip shooters didn’t read the book, let alone even the introduction. A few read Jeffro’s blog post blasting the book; and it’s obvious Jeffro didn’t bother to read it as well. I’ve been debating reading Jeffro’s book, a good many negative reviews have held me back, now his unfounded animosity towards this book increases my doubt.

@Richard, I saw you were the guest blogger at DMR. Nice

Yes sir! That was me. Thank you.

It's exciting what DMR Books is doing and I'm very happy to participate.

Ray Simmons wrote a nice blog post over @ DMR about the Appendix N anthology. I’ve never played D&D so quite a bit of it was eye opening.

To me the worst part of the book was the afterword by Ann Vandermeer. The sexual orientation and identity she questions has no place in these old stories.

I’ve been thinking about R Simmon’s blog post. Some comments made by him I cannot disagree with:

1. The stories/authors listed in Gary Gygax’s Appendix N absolutely were inspirational to the game rules. There are too many blogs, essays and podcasts dedicated to the very subject. So yeah, the author’s statement in his introduction was setting himself up for flack.

2. There is no evidence that Gygax ever read C.L. Moore or Clark Ashton Smith. This seems ridiculous to the modern audience who can read any author with a quick search. I think we forget that the game was a product of the 70’s. If a work/author wasn’t in your local library or available at stores convenient to you, then it was not inconceivable that Gygax was completely unaware of either.

However, counter arguments to points 1 and 2.
1.

The rest of my post:

However, counter arguments to points 1 and 2:

1. Who gives a flip? Bebergal made an uneducated statement. No need to hang him for it. I think what Bebergal should have said was more along the lines of “don’t expect to find your personal A-N in these pages”
2. I’ve been playing D&D for years, but my inspirations changed with my maturity and interests. My Appendix N when I was less than two decades old would have consisted of Tornan novels, Savage Sword of Conan comics, rip-off B movies of the 1982 Conan film and too many comic books to speak of. My early to mid 20’s, I took myself way too seriously and my games were influenced by Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore and various post-modern works. Now, if I still played, it would mostly be Howard, Lovecraft and CAS. No one person’s personal Appendix N will please all. Yes, Bebergal could have taken a strictly Gygax approved approach, but if he did, I would bet you any amount of money that some geeks would still be miffed.
Vandermeer’s Afterward: Simmons statement holds true for me; regardless of an orc’s identity politics, my sword will cut it down just the same. I cringe over this fact, but more and more politics rears its head in my genre of choice. I guess an editor can either sacrifice on the altar of the Progressives like Bebergal did, or upon the altar of Conservatives like Price did with Flashing Swords.

Personally, I would prefer neither altar.