THE Group for Authors! discussion

Good article. I used a line editor for my book, but I really wish I had gone with a developmental editor first.

Enjoyed the interview. I do both content and line editing since my goal is to help the author produce the very best work possible.

Stuff like this always feels sketchy.

I have to say, publisher gave me a developmental editor first, then a line editor and I'm really glad they did. The developmental editor helped keep me from going overboard with my own story and stick to the facts. This helped tremendously in writing a non-fiction, health memoir.

But I've also worked for many years as a development executive with screenwriters and movie studios. A good development person, like a dramaturg in the theatrical be invaluable to a writer. Trouble is, it's hard to find one who knows how to help the writer convey their vision, rather than rewrite to their own ends.

Jill wrote: "I have to say, publisher gave me a developmental editor first, then a line editor and I'm really glad they did. The developmental editor helped keep me from going overboard with my own story and st..."

Jill, do you have any tips on how to get a screenwriter? I have always wanted my story to be a movie.

A responsible editor will work with writers to retain their unique voices while pointing out plotting, character, and other issues.

Does anyone have suggestions for good line and/or development editors?

You can find plenty of books on screenwriting. I took a graduate course in screenwriting, but don't do any screenwriting now. In order words, you can do it yourself.

No way do I want to tackle it on my own. I want someone to write it well enough to be sold. :)

Is a development editor performing a similar function to a beta-reader? These labels get very confusing.

A developmental editor's purpose is to read the story and determine issues in the areas of plot, logic, pace, voice, character development, descriptions. They tell you where your book works and where it doesn't. They make suggestions to improve the above issues. They are also called Context Editors or Alpha Readers and the process is called a Manuscript Assessment.

A Beta reader does a line by line edit and corrects issues of spelling, grammar and punctuation, sentence structure, POV errors, tense errors, verb use, and syntax problems.

There are many BETA readers who do both but I question their effectiveness. The two processes are very different and done for different reasons at different stages of the writing. A Developmental Assessment is done early in the editing process and often indicates story changes and sometimes massive re-writes. BETA Reading is the correction edit and usually done towards the end of the process.

When your writing is complete - it should also be sent to a proofreader to finalize.

I would add to the above,don't use your friends as beta readers. Friends are great to build excitement for your book before it comes out, but they can be too kind or too critical when giving advice.

My beta readers don't do any editing, nor do I expect them to, but there's another difference: beta refers are (usually) volunteers. A developmental editor is a professional who is paid for his/her services.

Marilyn:

You could hire an experienced screenwriter, but this is no guarantee that it would be sold. The film industry is a tricky business. Certain actors/producers, etc. have projects in mind, and so many decisions are based on inside deals. That's why we have so many re-makes and sequels. Many of them look at the bottom line and not as a work as an art. If you have contacts, you might want to pitch an idea first and see if you get any nibbles on the end of your hook.

Charles wrote: "Marilyn:

You could hire an experienced screenwriter, but this is no guarantee that it would be sold. The film industry is a tricky business. Certain actors/producers, etc. have projects in mind, a..."

Thanks, Charles!

Definitely don't give up. I just wanted to mention that there are no guarantees. I found out the hard way -- with scripts and novels.

I will not give up. :)

Cool. Let me know what you find out.

Our beta readers do no editing of any kind. Instead, we ask them to read the completed manuscript and point out any areas that make no sense, are confusing, or raise questions. If they find mechanical issues, they identify them. All the editing (developmental, content, and line) is done before the beta readers review the manuscript.

Christine wrote: "...A Beta reader does a line by line edit and corrects issues of spelling, grammar and punctuation, sentence structure, POV errors, tense errors, verb use, and syntax problems..."

I've never actually seen a Beta reader defined that way. I always thought beta readers were just readers given a draft (not the final version that will be published like Advance Readers receive) to read and express their thoughts and opinions, particularly on issues that may need addressing or story issues that need improving prior publication—privately to author; beta reads should under no circumstances ever be a public review that could be confused with a review of an ARC or published edition. Some beta readers will also mention specific typos or grammar issues; many authors will ask beta readers to look for specific items in different stages/drafts.

It's a "conversation" between author and the reader about the draft and can be whatever they make it; most readers volunteering to beta read will not be expecting to be editors but rather readers relaying opinions and pointing up things they had issues with. Some authors actually ask beta readers (at least in initials round of drafts) to not line edit for typos and grammar errors yet.

D.A., that is my understanding of a beta reader as well. Based on their comments, we may still make extensive modifications to the manuscript prior to submission.

@D.A. @Lorna - the explanations I have provided (comment #12) are the textbook list of responsibilities for two types of professional editors - developmental and Beta.

Obviously many self-published writers could not afford to pay professional editors. Over the past few years these titles have been freely given to volunteers, who edit self-published books using a wide variety of methods. As a result the lines have been severely blurred between a developmental editor (Alpha reader) and a Beta reader.

What we call those fellow writers/volunteers, is really of no consequence. If someone is carrying a couple degrees and charge for their editing then they might insist on their proper title, but we are not talking about professionals.

These people work for free and editing is most definitely time-consuming work. If the authors who use them are happy with the feedback they're receiving, and they feel their story/writing is improved as a result, that's all that really matters.

I'm not used to seeing Beta Editors or line editors or proofreaders called Beta Readers; my confusion. Well, to be honest, I'm not used to seeing the term "beta editor" or talk of alpha and beta reads. The last is likely a geek issue where alpha testing was always strictly controlled in house and beta testing was the first time potential customers got to test.

I get so used to the terminology used on goodreads and other book sites/communities/blogs and author requests I just assumed by beta readers you meant readers an author had look over their drafts as hopefully representative of potential reader opinions. There are just so many clubs/groups, author statuses and discussion posts here and on social media from authors seeking readers to beta read I forgot to consider other uses of the term. Guess it's one of those phrases like "network" or "p2p"... I do know there are a kajillion different terms for different types of book editors.

Probably on goodreads and similar sites, "beta reader" usually refers to a volunteer unpublished-draft reader rather than any type of editor so any posts requesting beta readers might want to clarify. Putting "beta read" instead of "edited" in a book description might also be taken the wrong way and cause potential buyers to think they are purchasing a draft edition.

I need to stop assuming that just because so common even wikipedia uses the phrase the same way it's used around goodreads that there are other common uses (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_r...).

I've never seen alpha/beta editors either. For me, editors and beta readers have always been two distinctly different species. Editors are paid professionals who have very specific duties; beta readers are volunteers who provide general--and often nonspecific--feedback.

I still have a lot to learn, though :)

There is a lot of confusing terminology used these days as SP writers enter the publishing arena. Traditional publishers used professional editors and various types of editing existed and still does.

The feedback received from the volunteer/fellow writer reading community is valid and in most cases very useful. Like I said I think the confusion is in the titles used.

This confusion is everywhere and not going away anytime soon. It is a good idea to advise anyone reading for you, what kind of feedback you want. Rather than worrying about matching criteria to titles, just be clear about your individual requirements.

Its like hiring someone to clean your house. Whether you call that person a maid, or a housekeeper, or a cleaning person, or a servant. No one really cares as long as the job gets done.

Some of the organization charts in the traditional publishing houses mentioning various editor titles are confusing, too. And job titles are not necessarily the same from publisher to publisher even if you do figure them out. Generally, I assume editor is a paid professional and without access to an actual job description behind the title I'll assume title matches something one of the common professional organizations defines.

"Copy Editor" is another one with various meanings.

Outside of this discussion, while an editor of course "reads" the work, I've not seen an editor called a reader except if someone just sorting through incoming slush-pile without editing has "editor" in job title.

The way I've understood it, the two do completely different functions. A D.E., usually has a great deal of in-genre experience. They are the ones who will take a look at your story from a reader's perspective and give you ideas of how it can be manipulated, re-sequenced, re-plotted or how characters can be brought out more, or set back a bit, depending. The entire focus of their editing is to get the best presentation of your idea, from a reader's perspective. They can be also very efficient redliners of sections, paragraphs, etc.

A copy editor edits for grammar, punctuation and spellings as well as red herrings such as a character that suddenly appears in a closed room with all kinds of knowledge that has no basis from what's gone before, cars that change color from one chapter the the next. This is also known as continuity.

It's rare to find both skills in one editor, but it is possible... and expensive...

Beta-readers are groups of trusted genre readers who will read an ARC or proof and give the author their personal overall comments. Usually best used by combining like comments for revisions, not doing whatever the readers say, but overall, they should be the last edits before pitching/publication. I use groups of six or so, in-genre, and composed of readers and writers only, no editors. Editors can't usually look at a read except from their narrower viewpoint, and besides, asking them to do a beta read isn't good use of their time anyway.

I discovered the value of a developmental editor with my first book. When my manuscript was completed (I thought!) I sent it to a developmental editor. I thought I'd written an a collection of spiritual essays organized around several broad themes. She loved it, but informed me it was a memoir written in essay form. She even told me it had a story arc. I had viewed these essays individually, written and re-written so many times, I couldn't see the big picture. She told me where to include additional personal info. Ultimately, this was a lifesaver, because I would have tried to market it in the wrong genre!

GREAT.