Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

Hi everyone,

I am looking for honest reviews of my action novel Jeremiah's Codes. If you are interested then please contact me and I will send you a free ecopy.
I am currently working on the sequel due for release early next year.

Cheers

Have you thought about hiring a blog tour guide? Like a publicist, they connect you with power bloggers who review your book and post on Goodreads and Amazon. It can cost a couple of hundred bucks for the guide/publicist (but not the reviews), but can be money well spent.

Paul,

You might consider just leaving it up to those who read your work whether or not they wish to post a review. You may not be aware of the fact that there is a Federal Trade Commission (FTC) regulation that requires all solicitied, purchased, and swapped reviews to include a disclaimer stating so.

That's news to me, and I worked in PR for a major film studio for years. We'd fly critics all over the world for junkets, put them up in first class hotels, wine and dine them, set up interviews with the stars, etc. When they got home, we'd call them all asking for an advanced quote.

I think the FTC has bigger issues that if you gave someone a free copy of a $7 book in exchange for an honest review.

R.S. wrote: "That's news to me, and I worked in PR for a major film studio for years. We'd fly critics all over the world for junkets, put them up in first class hotels, wine and dine them, set up interviews wi..."

R.S.

The FTC regulation came about during the 1950's in response to the national "payola" scandal which involved record companies offering popular disc jockies money and other incentives to promote their artists' records.
I am certain that your former employer's legal department can verify this.

Payola scandal aside, I would posit any reviews received as a result of the OP giving away free copies of his book won't lead to a scandal of 1950s proportions.

**Promotional consideration provided by my kaffee cup**

Agreed, R.F.G.

I see reviews all the time where they state they received a free copy in return for an honest review, and I always think, "Duh!"

Publishers and studios send out hundreds of free books and DVD to critics for reviews. Publicists make their living by soliciting reviews.

I don't doubt that the law in on the books, but I don't think it's meant to stop indie authors from getting reviews from indie critics.

Now if you want to talk the SEC and crowd funding... that's a whole other story. :)

R.S.,

If an indie author solicited reviews with free copies and had a billion copy best-seller around the world due solely to those reviews, I could see the FTC getting involved.

However, I really don't see that happening any time soon.

R.S. wrote: "Publishers and studios send out hundreds of free books and DVD to critics for reviews. Publicists make their living by soliciting reviews.

I don't doubt that the law in on the books, but I don't think it's meant to stop indie authors from getting reviews from indie critics....."

You are describing commercial reviews done by professional critics. Commercial reviews are not included in the FTC disclosure requirements. It is assumed they are, by nature, obviously commercial.
NOTE: Commercial reviews are not allowed on Goodreads or Amazon.

The FTC is targeting reviews written by individuals and done for compensation (including a free copy of the book). Those require disclosure under FTC regulations.

These FTC regulations has been discussed and sited several times in various discussions on this site. You are certainly free to research it if you want, but the FTC regulation is there and designed to prevent consumers from being mislead by biased reviews.

Christine wrote: "R.S. wrote: "Publishers and studios send out hundreds of free books and DVD to critics for reviews. Publicists make their living by soliciting reviews.

I don't doubt that the law in on the books, ..."

Thanks Christine :D And of course disclosure of this sort doesn't stop indie authors from getting reader reviews at all. It simply allows the reader of the review to be informed. And that is something both authors and consumers should want.

No professional, reputable author would want such reviews posted without disclosure, as that would be unethical. Not to mention illegal and against GR and Amazon TOS.

R.S. wrote: "I see reviews all the time where they state they received a free copy in return for an honest review, and I always think, "Duh!"

Right, because no book consumer posting a review ever actually purchases a book, borrows one from a friend or library.

I have almost 600 reviews posted on GR. I have received a free copy from an author exactly twice.

The vast majority of consumer reviews are not from free copies being provided. Nothing wrong with the ones that are, as long as it's disclosed, but they are the minority. So, no, it's not "duh" when someone does the right thing and discloses it.

I wouldn't say a free copy of material for review constitutes payola in any way shape or form. The record industry scandal had to do with massively influential DJs taking millions of dollars and drugs in return for playing and endorsing songs.

There are a large number of semi-pro critics out there, and I can see Auntie J's point that it is worthwhile for them to announce that fact. There is definitely a difference between a solicited review and a customer's enthusiastic posting. As a consumer, I prefer a professional review. As a writer, I'll take either one, as long as they are honest. :)

R.S. wrote: "I wouldn't say a free copy of material for review constitutes payola in any way shape or form. The record industry scandal had to do with massively influential DJs taking millions of dollars and dr..."

R.S.

The DJ payola scandal of the 50's just happened to be the activity that led to the creation of the FTC regulations regarding solicitation, purchasing, and swapping reviews or promotion of a product. It was only referenced in response to message 4 in which you indicated that you were not aware that such regulations existed.

Your comment that independent authors' practice of soliciting, purchasing, and swapping reviews does not come anywhere close to the level of the questionable activity that the DJ scandal did is valid. However, the regulation still applies and requires such reviews to include a disclaimer.

The real problem is that such practices have resulted in many readers now being so skeptical of any review that they ignore them completely. Readers review books to share their opinion with other readers, not the author. Their reviews are not intended to be an addition to the author's marketing and promotional strategy, but merely a subjective evaluation of the work.

The vast majority of readers never post a rating or review. That is their prerogative. If they wish to do so they will. No solicitation, incentive, or offer of reciprocation is necessary.

R.S. wrote: "I wouldn't say a free copy of material for review constitutes payola in any way shape or form. "

Your opinion doesn't matter. Fact is disclosure of such is required by the FTC as well as GR and Amazon TOS.

The explosion of authors posting reviews for each other without disclosing relationship is the reason I now ignore all reviews by authors unless they are known to me to post honest reviews. Failure to disclose receiving a free copy for review is NOT ok, and consumers aren't as stupid as some authors might like to think.

I thank you all for your lessons in etiquette and TOS for reviews on here and Amazon. I am more used to a pre-digital, corporate entertainment environment, which is a cutthroat business.

For what it's worth, on the rare occasion that I write a review I always state any relationship I have with an author out of common courtesy, and I always buy the book for the same reason. I would never trade reviews, mostly because I probably don't want to read the other person's book. Being dyslexic, I get picky about the little reading that I do and I have a growing stack of books from other writers in my group of friends.

With your help, I will continue to learn about the indie book world. If anyone has any questions about the indie film world, hop over to the Dances With Films festival's website and find my blog, or shoot me a note and I'll be glad to help.

Auntie J wrote: "R.S. wrote: "I wouldn't say a free copy of material for review constitutes payola in any way shape or form. "

Your opinion doesn't matter. Fact is disclosure of such is required by the FTC as wel..."

Well stated Auntie J. As an author, with author friends I think your comments are right on. I do have to say that I only rate and review fellow authors that I feel are GOOD at the writing craft. Many fellow authors I've read are not-so-good. I generally post nothing or communicate with them in private. And, I never, JUST, swap reviews. But again Auntie J.'s point is well taken. Thank you for your honest appraisal. :o) Rory Church

I have received many books from authors to read in exchange for my honest review. This is arranged through a dialogue between the author and myself.
Usually it is due to the fact that I can not utilize electronic books of any kind. The only device I have that could be used to read an electronic book is my desktop PC. Due to severe medical issues/disability I am unable to sit at my PC for any length of time to engage in reading. I spend most of my time abed and that is where I do almost all of my reading, necessitating an actual physical book. (I am also on a very fixed budget as my only income is from Social Security.)
I always disclose that I received the book free of charge and any knowledge or association I may have with the author at the very beginning of my review. I do this so I don't forget to include this information.
Recently an author commented that they were surprised to see that disclaimer at the beginning of my review as they usually notice the disclaimer being the last sentence of a review.
As I stated, I list it first to make sure I don't forget to include it. I also feel that as a reader, I would like to know that information before I read through another's review.
If I have unresolved issues or questions about the book, I contact the author prior to posting my review to give them a chance to explain why the issue presented itself but was not resolved. (Possibly there will be a sequel that I was unaware of, that will wrap everything up and answer lingering questions.) After communicating with the author regarding said issues/questions, I will then post my honest review accordingly.
I hope my post here clarifies a reader's response to this issue.

Brenda wrote: "If I have unresolved issues or questions about the book, I contact the author prior to posting my review to give them a chance to explain why the issue presented itself but was not resolved. (Possibly there will be a sequel that I was unaware of, that will wrap everything up and answer lingering questions.) After communicating with the author regarding said issues/questions, I will then post my honest review accordingly...."

I agree with placing the disclaimer at the beginning of the review. Reviews are for readers and they should be aware immediately if there is any issue that would affect the review.

You do not state whether you also include your conversations with the author and your questioning him on problems in that disclosure. This is also something a reader should know.

If you write your review based on a resolution provided by the author without disclosing that information - you are not providing an unbiased honest review. Anyone reading you review is not aware you used the author to solve issues with the book and will assume the book didn't have any issues.

Full Disclosure has to include any interaction with the author relating to the book you are reviewing.

FYI: An honest review is one written based on your own opinion of the book, without any influence by any other person (including the author).

I do also disclose the discussion with the author, (if there was one), and whether or not my issue/question was resolved. If indeed there will be a sequel, that is noted in the review also.

Christine wrote: "Brenda wrote: "If I have unresolved issues or questions about the book, I contact the author prior to posting my review to give them a chance to explain why the issue presented itself but was not r..."

I agree completely.

If I were reading a review that didn't mention issues of lack of resolution because that reviewer received information from the author I would be miffed if I purchased and read the book only to find lack of resolution.

If the book doesn't stand on it's own, or has issues that affect enjoyment, that should be mentioned.

I have sometimes said things like, "I was left with questions I would have liked to have been explained, but perhaps these will be explained in a later book."

It's entirely possible to mention issues like this honestly and still voice uncertainty regarding if it were "planned" in order to flesh out more in a later book.

But I think it is completely unfair to readers of a review not to mention glaring issues that might affect their enjoyment and desire to purchase a book.

Rory wrote: "Auntie J wrote: "R.S. wrote: "I wouldn't say a free copy of material for review constitutes payola in any way shape or form. "

Your opinion doesn't matter. Fact is disclosure of such is required ..."

Thanks Rory. While I completely understand why many authors choose not to post negative reviews I find choosing to remain silent in that case worse than helpful for readers and book consumers. It is what causes many objectively sub-par books to be left with only glowing 4 and 5 star reviews. And that is (IMO) deception perpetrated upon consumers unadorned by anyone willing to say the truth. Thank goodness for those readers and those authors willing to post less than positive reviews.

I do though understand why some authors feel its best for them to refrain from posting less than positive reviews, and I am sympathetic. I don't blame them at all. However I will not consider any review by an author unknown to me who only posts positive reviews. Too often that means the reviews are - lets say, not entirely truthful.

The best reviews - IMO - are not those written to help the author (even when glowing opinion is completely honest and sincere), but those written to help readers who might enjoy it to be able to discern that, and those who might not (even if you did) to be able to see that as well.

Helping the right reader find a book they are likely to enjoy, and helping those who won't enjoy it to avoid wasting their time and money.

A positive review is only really helpful to me as a reader and consumer if I know the reviewer and know we tend to enjoy similar things, or it contains enough information for me to be able to decide I might like it too. Otherwise it's just someone saying they liked it, which doesn't do much to tell me if I will.

There have been MANY highly positive reviews that have helped me know I won't likely enjoy a book, because they tell me the book contains things I don't enjoy in stories that others do, or others don't mind.

The opposite is also true.

Auntie J
You nailed it!

Stu wrote: "Auntie J
You nailed it!"

Thanks Stu :D

An author even more than most should understand the concept of writing for their audience. The audience for a review is readers and book consumers. And the purpose of a reader review isn't to sell the book to as many people as possible, but to express one's own honest opinion and hopefully help others determine if they would like it too.

A "review" written for the benefit of the author is what is known as ad copy.

Auntie J wrote: "Rory wrote: "Auntie J wrote: "R.S. wrote: "I wouldn't say a free copy of material for review constitutes payola in any way shape or form. "

Your opinion doesn't matter. Fact is disclosure of such..."

Couldn't agree more.

5 stars are a great start when considering something new, in terms of an unknown author, and shouldn't be ignored, at least not completely. I accept that the skepticism surrounding these ratings is occasionally justified and that's where the 1 and 2 star ratings help by injecting a balance, provided of course that these reviews are just as well written as the glowing fives.

If the writing is bad, as in sentence structure, spelling, formatting, the telling of the story, the flow, and where it contains poorly developed characters then say so. That's what the entire community needs, not just a 2 star rating that provides no intelligent input whatsoever. In these cases it is left to the reader to deduce the reason, and if that reason was simply that the reviewer didn't care for that genre, or the author's chosen style and delivery while ignoring the fact that it was well written, then that also needs to be communicated.

Despite the associated cynicism, some 5 star ratings are actually genuine, and are written to reflect an appreciation of the effort to imagine, create and produce something that might otherwise be overlooked

And as is so often the case, beauty, or the lack thereof, is most definitely in the eyes of the beholder, and perhaps influenced to a degree by the mood they were in on the day the review was written.

I have noticed a tendency among some independent and self-published authors to post ratings and reviews of their own work. In one instance, the author of the book actually posted two 5-star ratings for the same book. A cursory review of ratings and reviews for independently and self-published books will verify this.

I realize that there is no rule or standard practice advisory against authors rating and reviewing their own work, but I personally think that it is unprofessional and misleading, since an author can post several 5-star ratings for their work, thus boosting the overall rating.

Jim wrote: "I realize that there is no rule or standard practice advisory against authors rating and reviewing their own work, but I personally think that it is unprofessional and misleading, since an author can post several 5-star ratings for their work, thus boosting the overall rating..."

I agree with that, although I don't know that it's all that widespread. If the best ratings an author has is his own, it looks a little desperate.

Jim wrote: "I have noticed a tendency among some independent and self-published authors to post ratings and reviews of their own work. In one instance, the author of the book actually posted two 5-star ratings..."

I can understand that opinion. I feel a bit differently, at least here on Goodreads. Since GR allows an author to rate and/or "review" their own book and it's clearly designated as from the author I don't really have an issue with it. People can clearly see it for what it is and give it whatever weight they feel it deserves. Some authors "reviews" of their own books are quite funny and entertaining. (Although I do have to wonder when I see an author shelve their own book as "To Read" or "Currently Reading" LOL)

Personally I don't care about an author rating their own book, here on GR, because I personally don't feel the overall ratings of any book has much value anyway. And most books have enough ratings where one more isn't going to make a significant difference. Where there are only a few ratings it's not hard to see one is from the author, so again, easy to disregard as clearly biased.

Readers tend to pay more attention, and give more weight to, what people are saying whom they know than any average star rating. I know ratings can have marketing implications for authors, and sites like Amazon and GR use them so they have some simple metrics, but I don't know that consumers put much weight on overall averaged ratings.

Now authors who game the system by posting more than one rating for their own books, that's a different matter. It does (unfortunately) occur and should be flagged as that's against TOS.

Paul wrote: "Hi everyone,

I am looking for honest reviews of my action novel Jeremiah's Codes. If you are interested then please contact me and I will send you a free ecopy.
I am currently ..."

lol. Paul, you may wanna repost somewhere else since your original post was usurped and the intent killed under this dead horse beating.

If there's a hint of romance, I'll take a stab at it. Go go http://literaryhomebody.com and submit a request. :-)

Jim wrote: "I realize that there is no rule or standard practice advisory against authors rating and reviewing their own work, but I personally think that it is unprofessional and misleading,..."

I agree completely - I would add the word "TACKY" to your description. Again the SPs do their own thing. They have no idea how a professional behaves and act like the total bungling amateurs that they are - plugging their own work with a self-centered biased opinion.

Do they really think anyone takes them seriously? Has it occurred to them it might actually turn readers away from their book. It definitely doesn't do one thing to make me want to read their work.

I agree. It's not a good practice.

Jim wrote: "I have noticed a tendency among some independent and self-published authors to post ratings and reviews of their own work. In one instance, the author of the book actually posted two 5-star ratings..."

You said it yourself, there are no rules regarding this practice, so why should an author not plug himself or herself in any manner or shape that he or she determines? I find that your question is a passive-aggressive way of undermining self-published authors and it is judgmental. Not all indie writers are "unprofessional" when they self-promote or review their work. I reviewed my own work and I gave readers an insight into what inspired me to write my book. Do you honestly think that readers really care that much about a star rating? "Fifty Shades" is shoved in my face 24/7 and I still have not read it. I don't care about its quality 5-star rating. I don't want to read it. If you don't want to read anything that a self-published author has written, don't read it. I feel most of these opinions come from the older generation who doesn't understand the younger generation growing up with social media at their fingertips. Self-promotion is key and giving oneself a pat on the back is not wrong. It is life or death in the shark-infested water of life. No one is going to hand you a life-vest. You better be ready to grab one for yourself!

Sorry Paul, looks like arguing about the rules is more interesting than helping you know if your book is good or not. :(

Since a few posters are dismayed that the OP's thread has been hijacked, I figured I'd take a look at the actual book. Searched Amazon for the book page (note, it would have been nice had the OP included a direct link as I would have been more inclined to respond when I first saw it).

Here's what I saw:

DISCLAIMER: I've received no compensation whatsoever for this "review." :)

Really high price - $9.99. I only pay that much if it's a release I've been waiting for or if the book comes highly recommended. The book only has 3 reviews and isn't selling well. Consider dropping the price?

Description is a single long paragraph with no formatting and an overuse of ellipses. Doesn't come across at first glance as very professional.

Comma missing in the first sentence of the description (note, some style guides do not require a comma after short introductory phrases. To the best of my knowledge, all style guides call for a comma at the end of long introductory phrases). If the author doesn't even care enough to get the punctuation right for the first thing most readers will ever see of his work, why should I have any confidence at all that the author has made any effort to get his writing right?

The content of the blurb isn't bad, but I found two other places where I believe commas are required. Perhaps hire a good copy editor?

On to the sample: "feverish with anticipation for the event had been four years in the planning." Huh? Someone had planned to be feverish with anticipation for four years? That's the second sentence in the book. Again, perhaps hire a good copy editor?

I read a few more paragraphs. Overall, though the language is vibrant and shows good motion, I just don't think that this book is polished enough. In my experience, most authors fail to provide me with enough entertainment to make reading their books worth my time. Those who are more polished tend to have better success in entertaining me.

Sorry I couldn't take you up on your request.

Thanks.

Brian

Jim wrote: "In one instance, the author of the book actually posted two 5-star ratings for the same book."

Hi Jim. Just browsing this conversation and wondered if it was my book you're complaining about. If so, you haven't contacted me directly to discuss this and ask why it happened. I can assure you, I'm trying to get it fixed. I'm sure you've having lots of sleepless nights worrying over the ratings on the indie books, as many of your posts would indicate. If it is mine that has you fretting so, fear not. I am getting it fixed. If not, why not go to the author that has caused you such consternation and plead your case with them. Maybe if they hear how two five star ratings on the same book is causing you such a headache, they will fix it for you.

Quite honestly, Jim, I'm in this for the love of writing. I'm not sure what independent authors have done to sour you against us so, but your ranty posts against us are only giving me more encouragement to continue doing what I'm doing. I do wish you the best of luck and I do hope you make a billion sales on your novel. I truly do. But, your constant rallying against "unprofessional" writers seems a bit amateurish and juvenile to me. It seems a professional writer would try to guide those that are less professional instead of belly-aching about them every chance they get.

Dwayne wrote: "Jim wrote: "In one instance, the author of the book actually posted two 5-star ratings for the same book."

Hi Jim. Just browsing this conversation and wondered if it was my book you're complaining..."

How did the an author manage to post any reviews, never mind two on the same site? If I read a book I do make time to review, famous author or Indie. I buy from Amazon UK but if I notice, for example, the writer is Canadian, I post that review on Amazon Canada and UK. A UK shows as "verified purchase" and A Ca doesn't, but there is always a delay while they do verify the purchase.

Also the list of people barred from reviewing is comprehensive. It not only includes relatives, but anyone mentioned in the acknowledgements. In my case that not only prevented someone who had an interest because he'd helped with research from reviewing: his wife, who had no involvement whatever, was barred too. (Their surname is rather unusual.)

I do post the same review on Goodreads, but surely that isn't regarded as double-posting, or is it? If it is, it's not in the best interests of all the reader members who often follow authors', or other readers', reviews if they happen to like the same kind of books: it saves them searching, and they can discuss them with friends.

Frankly I don't think the point Jim is upset about is double posting: it's double posting of a 5 star rating. That couldn't be a touch of jealousy could it? Or is it because the person in question is the author of the book trying to get publicity? Would you go on Twitter and quote a three star review if you could use the title of one that rated five stars? The only dishonesty would be claiming the book only had five star ratings when the average, for example, was 3.8.

Further I agree with Janna. It takes time and skill to write a good book, and courage to publish it. That done to the best of your ability nobody will buy it unless they can find it so yes, take every chance going to publicise it. Janna put it better when she compared it to grabbing a life-vest in shark infested sea.

What does anybody gain by knocking other authors? There are good and bad whether they are traditionally published or Indie, and which is which is a matter of personal opinion. It's a lot tougher for Indie authors to sell books, but unless they are good, from either camp, they will fail.

How does one judge whom is a professional author? Certainly not because they hooked a publisher. I would suggest only those who earn sufficient from their writing to live on their royalties fall into that category. Do you Jim, or was Dwayne being unintentionally flattering by implying you are a professional?

Sarah wrote: "What does anybody gain by knocking other authors? There are good and bad whether they are traditionally published or Indie, and which is which is a matter of personal opinion. It's a lot tougher for Indie authors to sell books, but unless they are good, from either camp, they will fail.

How does one judge whom is a professional author? Certainly not because they hooked a publisher. I would suggest only those who earn sufficient from their writing to live on their royalties fall into that category."

Thank you

Sarah wrote: "How did the an author manage to post any reviews, never mind two on the same site?... Frankly I don't think the point Jim is upset about is double posting: it's double posting of a 5 star rating."

If it's me he's talking about, one of my stories "The Asphalt Carpet" did, at one time, have two five star ratings that appeared to come from me. I only see one, now. As for how it happened, I'm not completely sure myself.

When I first started publishing stories, I five-starred a few stories here and there just for kicks. Like I've said, I write for fun and I'm having a ball testing things and learning what works and what doesn't. The five star ratings remained a while, then I decided it looked a bit pompous. Besides, of course I love the stories or I wouldn't have published them. So, it also seemed a bit silly to be saying, "I like my story". So, I removed most of them. One of the ratings remained. I can't seem to get it off "The Asphalt Carpet". I'm, frankly, not all that worried about it.

Anyway, one day I came over to GoodReads to find my list of stories pretty messed up. Again, not sure what happened. Maybe someone playing a "joke", maybe a glitch in the system, who knows? But, several of my stories had been combined into one. Six (I think) separate stories were now combined into either "Tink" or "Summerwind" (can't recall which). I tried to separate them, but was unable. I contacted GoodReads and they fixed the issue. But, somehow that left two five-star ratings on "The Asphalt Carpet". I tried to fix it the day I noticed it, but it wasn't taking. So, I left it. Today I saw Jim's complaint about two five-star ratings one one book and figured he's either talking about mine or might some day notice mine and I just don't want to have him have a heart attack over it or something, so I went and fixed it. It worked today. I think we'll all sleep much easier tonight, don't you?

Sarah wrote: "How does one judge whom is a professional author? Certainly not because they hooked a publisher. I would suggest only those who earn sufficient from their writing to live on their royalties fall into that category. Do you Jim, or was Dwayne being unintentionally flattering by implying you are a professional?"

Urgh. I hate to think that being able to live on the royalties of one's books makes one a professionals.

In most fields, being a professional is about knowing your craft and executing it well. In my other, better paying job, being professional is really more about attitude, remaining calm when everything around you is getting out of hand, being supportive of others, that kind of thing. In the former, I don't know if Jim is a professional. I don't know how much he knows about writing or how well he executes his skills. I haven't read his book. In the latter, no. I don't think he's a professional. To me, a professional writer would aid "lesser" writers, rather than sniveling about them every chance. It's this attitude I see him display from time to time that makes me not want to read his book.

Dwayne wrote: "Sarah wrote: "How does one judge whom is a professional author? Certainly not because they hooked a publisher. I would suggest only those who earn sufficient from their writing to live on their roy..."

Being a professional in my field involves:

Obtaining a 4 year degree at an accredited university
Working for at least four years under the supervision of a qualified professional
Passing two separate licensing tests
Paying to obtain a license from the appropriate state
Maintaining that license through continuing education

You can actually get in serious legal trouble for claiming to be a professional engineer if you're not one. Coming from that perspective tends to make me go to the opposite extreme than you took when defining "professional."

On the other hand, I couldn't care less whether authors rate/review their books; I just want more authors to write *better books.

*better defined in this instance as "having the ability to provide me with entertainment."

Brian wrote: "On the other hand, I couldn't care less whether authors rate/review their books; I just want more authors to write *better books.

*better defined in this instance as 'having the ability to provide me with entertainment.'"

Here's to hoping you find the authors who provide you with better entertainment.

Dwayne wrote: "Sarah wrote: "How does one judge whom is a professional author? Certainly not because they hooked a publisher. I would suggest only those who earn sufficient from their writing to live on their roy..."

Dwayne wrote: "Sarah wrote: "How does one judge whom is a professional author? Certainly not because they hooked a publisher. I would suggest only those who earn sufficient from their writing to live on their roy..."

This made me laugh out loud, so well done!

Brian wrote: "Coming from that perspective tends to make me go to the opposite extreme than you took when defining "professional."

Yeah, I dunno. In one of my jobs, "professional" is part of my title, but I didn't have to go through that much training. Not even close. Professional means something different in every field, I suppose.

As for writing -- I honestly don't know what a "professional" writer is. I probably ain't one and won't claim to be one.

Brian also wrote: "I just want more authors to write *better books.

*better defined in this instance as "having the ability to provide me with entertainment."

I write to entertain myself. If I accidentally entertain someone else, it's a nice bonus.

Dwayne wrote: "Brain wrote: "Coming from that perspective tends to make me go to the opposite extreme than you took when defining "professional."

Yeah, I dunno. In one of my jobs, "professional" is part of my ti..."

Dwayne,

You wrote, “I write to entertain myself. If I accidentally entertain someone else, it's a nice bonus.”

I’ve seen others express that same sentiment recently, and, though it seems like a simple concept perhaps reflecting a desire to maintain artistic integrity, its implications concern me. In fact, those implications concern me so much that it makes me feel that there’s a huge disconnect somewhere between the two of us. If you don’t mind, I’d really like to gain a greater understanding of exactly where that disconnect lies.

Perhaps an analogy is the best way to explain my exact concern:

I wake up one morning and decide that I really want a widget. I run down to Widgets-R-Us. They have a huge selection, and I spend an hour looking through them all. I pick up the 54th package. By now, I’m kinda bored with the whole process and just want to get home and enjoy my widget. I say, “This one looks okay. It should do the trick.”

I get home, take the widget out of the package, and it promptly disintegrates into useless pieces. Now, I understand that WRU will give me a refund, but I’m ticked. I spent all that time looking for the widget. I plopped down my hard-earned money on the widget. How is it possible that the manufacturer packaged up this load of crap and expected anyone to buy it?

Annoyed, I call that manufacturer. He tells me, “Oh. I just threw that together in my garage because I enjoy making them.”

Huh? He gave no thought at all to the poor unsuspecting customer that may end up buying his widget?

Suppose the guy had said, “Look, I tried my best. Sorry the widget didn’t meet your expectations.” I can live with that response. I’d definitely have preferred that he took a bit more care to put quality out, but I can’t fault a guy for trying and failing. At least, he tried. I’d probably say something like, “I understand. Perhaps next time you might work a little harder on the QC and use different glue.”

I also understand completely if the product just didn’t meet my personal tastes. There are a bunch of widgets for sale down at WRU. As long as the packaging is accurate, it’s my responsibility to figure out if the widget meets my needs.

But to have the guy say that he wasn’t even trying to meet my needs! Then why was it for sale?

I know nothing about you other than that you have 17 works available. Perhaps they’re all free. Or perhaps they’re all wonderfully-written, entertaining stories. I haven’t looked at a single one of them. I’m simply addressing your statement above. Assuming that you (a) are selling some of those works and (b) truly mean that statement, I tend to have uncharitable thoughts – very uncharitable thoughts – toward you.

I follow this chain of logic:

1. Readers of genre fiction are primarily seeking entertainment. (I have no idea what readers of literary fiction are seeking as I don’t read literary fiction, and this conversation isn’t about nonfiction.)
2. For a genre fiction book to have value, it must potentially provide entertainment to a reader.
3. By asking for money for a book, you’re claiming that it has value.
4. If you didn’t try to create a book that has value, it’s extremely unlikely that the book obtained value by accident.

If there is, in fact, a fundamental disconnect between us, I think it lies in one of three places:

1st Possible Area of Disconnect – My chain of logic is flawed.

Perhaps you believe one of the following:

1. Readers of genre fiction are seeking something other than entertainment.
2. A genre fiction book does not need to potentially provide entertainment in order to have value.
3. Asking money for a book does not mean you claim that the book has value.
4. More on this one in the 3rd reason below.

If the disconnect is one of these three, please explain because I’m not seeing it.

2nd Possible Area of Disconnect – You have different set of ethics than I do.

I respect manufacturers that provide products that fill a need. Perhaps you believe strongly in caveat emptor, that it is solely the buyer’s responsibility to determine the quality of the item being purchased and that you, as the manufacturer, have absolutely no responsibility to ensure quality.

If this is the case, I just have to accept that people bring different ethics to the table, and you’ll have to accept my uncharitable thoughts toward you.

3rd Possible Area of Disconnect – You believe that, because the book entertains you, it has the potential to entertain others.

Perhaps this area is the most likely? I can see that. Though every person is unique, you can generally find others who share similar interests.

The flaw I find in that reasoning concerns the act of writing. It seems to me that writing is, essentially, the art of using words to translate the vision in your mind so that you can recreate that vision in someone else’s mind.

That, to me, seems to indicate that there are two huge problems with the concept that your writing entertaining you would mean that it entertains anyone else:

1. When I write, I try hard to make my thoughts as clear as possible. Despite my best efforts, I rarely run a single scene past beta readers in which I don’t have multiple misunderstandings. The original statement, to me, indicates that the author isn’t concerned with his reader. If authors have a lot of trouble obtaining clarity when they’re really thinking about how best to translate their thoughts, how much more unlikely is it that an author who isn’t taking such considerations into account will be able to clearly translate his story (I mean, just look at how difficult it was to parse the convoluted sentence I just wrote!).
2. My story is already inside my head. All my words do when I read them back is remind me of what I already envisioned. Of course, then, I find my own words entertaining. My poor readers, on the other hand, don’t have the benefit of foreknowledge. I think it’s extraordinarily difficult to translate my story to the reader in such a way as to maintain their interest. It takes me many drafts and revisions to succeed at such, and I’m focused tightly on that sole achievement. If, as the statement seems to suggest, you don’t even consider what the reader might find entertaining, I consider it highly unlikely that you’re achieving entertainment accidentally.

Again, I’m really interested in where the disconnect lies. Hopefully, this post explained my point of view. I’d love to read yours.

Thanks.

Brian

Brian wrote: "Something about widgets and disconnections"

What I said I really meant more as a joke than anything. I appreciate your time and effort to dissect it, but it seems needless. Your post is long and tedious. I got about halfway and became impatient, waiting for the point.

At this point I'll just jump down here and say that no writer, no matter how talented, no matter how wonderful or highly regarded is going to entertain the masses. I cannot entertain everyone. Everyone has different tastes and no writer ever has been able to cater to everyone's tastes. I can't claim to write things that will entertain everyone. It's nice when other enjoy my writing, but I can't expect it, nor would I even know how to go about ensuring everyone is going to be entertained. I hope I've clarified whatever it is that confused you.

P.S. Your analogy lost me as I'm not sure how you can compare purchasing a piece of equipment bought to serve a function with ideas transferred into words. If one creates a perfect, working widget the solution to making sure other widgets satisfy others is to create more widgets just like it. Now, that doesn't work in the writing world. Oh, sure, I can see that Harry Potter or the latest Stephen King novel are selling like bananas in a monkey house, but I cannot just copy what they've done. It's called plagiarism. I have to work with my own ideas and hopefully somehow, somewhere, those ideas will entertain others.

Dwayne,

I've seen the statement in question made by others as well. Maybe one of them will be more willing/able to help me understand their viewpoint.

Thanks anyway.

Brian

Brian wrote: "Dwayne,

I've seen the statement in question made by others as well. Maybe one of them will be more willing/able to help me understand their viewpoint.

Thanks anyway.

Brian"

Brian,

In 1954, Hank Aaron was playing for the Jacksonville Braves, a Class-A minor league team. He told a reporter that he just wanted to play baseball and that he preferred to be in the minor leagues for his entire career because, there, he could play ball his way. One month later, rumors started to spread that Mr. Aaron would be offerred a contract to play with the Milwaukee Braves. When the same reporter reminded him of his previous statement about his wish to remain in the minor leagues, Mr. Aaron smiled and said: "That's just what minor league players say when they think they will never get a chance to play in the majors".

I'm not sure if Mr. Aaron's viewpoint can be compared to that to which you refer, but you have to admit, it's a great story.

OMG..I was away from Goodreads for a week and look what happened to my post!!!

Wade wrote: "Sorry Paul, looks like arguing about the rules is more interesting than helping you know if your book is good or not. :("

Yes agree Wade...hmmmm

Hehe..lucky you..

Brian wrote: "Dwayne,

I've seen the statement in question made by others as well. Maybe one of them will be more willing/able to help me understand their viewpoint.

Thanks anyway.

Brian"

Good luck with that.

R.F.G. wrote: "Good luck with that."

Yep.