Ersatz TLS discussion

CCCubbon wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Getting along well with the Marc Morris The Anglo Saxons. The difficulty in writing about this period is that there is little written record. The Anglo Saxon Chronicle was

I am not madly impressed either with Dan Snow as a historian.

CCCubbon wrote: "AB76 wrote: "MK wrote: "AB76 wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Getting along well with the Marc Morris The Anglo Saxons. The difficulty in writing about this period is that there is litt..."

the Hungarian link has fascinated me since my teens when i first learnt about it, two countries with languages totally out of sync with neighbouringh cultures. Germanic Scandinavia-Russian borders (Finland) and Germanic-Slavic cultural borders(Hungary)

The Estonians are closely linked to the Finns as well.

i agree, the movement of peoples who are now merged into larger ethnic groups was probably extensive. The penguin collection Arab Travellers In The Far North was really interesting about the diverse peoples from the Ukraine basin to the Finland borders. The Arabs recorded coming accross "pale blonde, blue eyed" Finns as far south as Kiev , among larger Turkic races.

Allright, I finished my satirical crime story. It was a solid 3 stars as a crime novel and the parody made it 4.
The retired ex-chancellor rerurned to Germany's North-East and settled down in a small town. When she tries to get acquainted to some of the ppl a murder takes place. The oolce is not interested and brands it suicide, but Ms Merkel digs in, to fight her boredom.
She indeed manages to find the murderer and in the end Putin saves the day.
Yes, I knew whodunnit before it was revealed, but it wasn't about the crime, it was about the fun ride.

JayZed wrote: "Evening all. Last week I spent a blissfully internet-free few days in sunny Cornwall, so when I wasn't tramping along my beloved coast path I got lots of reading done. As is traditional, I lugged f..."

Alas, not available (yet?) in the UK, but if you run across , it is well worth a read (Sylvia Plath once lived there, and she doesn't come out well in the book). The book depicts many of the constraints women had - a social history of the time. I enjoyed it.

FranHunny wrote: "Allright, I finished my satirical crime story. It was a solid 3 stars as a crime novel and the parody made it 4...

Could you remind us of the title? It sounds really good and I'd like to try it.

No side effects for second jab, just like my first...phew

Will sit down to enjoy some Eleanor Dark in a bit, Return to Coolami a novel about a trip accross the Blue Mountains from Sydney to Coolami, the family home of one of the characters. Written in the 1930s, it is one of Dark's best and she is an interesting character herself

Georg wrote: "Hitler brushed (Hamsun) off re Norway in 1943. Didn't change Hamsun's adoration of him though."

Hamsun is, I think, a good example of an author whose (early) books can be enjoyed without reference to his political views. We should not allow obnoxious opinions to eliminate the opportunity to enjoy works of art.

I'm not sure if his later books were political, but they were certainly much heavier going, and I didn't care for them much. Of course, I would have hated any explicit (or implicit) support for Hitler or other forms of Fascism, had it been expressed in the novels.

giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "

Interesting the Finnish/Steppe-Turkic link because there is much similarity I believe between the Finnish and Turkish languages. Due to the voyages by the Finns along the Volga I think."

One of the odder books I have read in recent years was New Finnish Grammar by Diego Maroni, which (despite the title) is a novel. It concerns the fate of a wartime casualty, who is amnesiac... he is found in Trieste and 'repatriated' to Finland (he was wearing a coat with a Finnish name-tag). It was one of those books I bought because the title was irresistible (to me)... it was pretty good, though not as outstanding as some would have us believe - IMO, of course! This is a professional review:
https://finland.fi/arts-culture/reade...

I've just finished the latest in William Shaw's Alex Cupidi crime novels, set around Dungeness: The Trawlerman. Earlier books set in the sixties feature Alex's parents, also police officers.
Now I'm reading Gianrico Carofiglio's Le perfezioni provvisorie - translated into French, Le silence pour preuve, by Nathalie Bauer. If I remember correctly, scarletnoir recommended these books about the lawyer Guido Guerrieri. Thank you - I'm enjoying it so far.
I'm also reading Mermaid Singing by Charmian Clift - the writer, her husband (also a writer) and their two children moved to the Greek island, Kalymnos, in the 1950s. I don't remember if someone here recommended this & her subsequent book about Hydra, or if I saw it in The Guardian.

scarletnoir wrote: "Georg wrote: "Hitler brushed (Hamsun) off re Norway in 1943. Didn't change Hamsun's adoration of him though."

Hamsun is, I think, a good example of an author whose (early) books can be enjoyed wit..."

I see him as a perennial outsider in his novels, he seems to be someone who is always on the fringes of society, via his characters outlook and thoughts. Hunger was the novel that defined his kind of Norwegian existentialism long before Camus or Sartre.

a subtle way of expressing Fascist views can creep into novels of that era, with the concept of the soil, darwinism and the nationalism that was so evident in the distress and upheaval after WW1 and then 1929

My favourite of Hamsuns is Mysterer(Mysteries) and i still ask myself questions about it till this day, 20 years after first reading it. The idea of reality and illusion is strong and its coastal summer setting in Norway off-sets the darker undertow

scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "

Interesting the Finnish/Steppe-Turkic link because there is much similarity I believe between the Finnish and Turkish languages. Due to the voyages by the Finns a..."

to me it was another over-hyped modern novel. it might be the "blurb gibber" as i call it that starts to label authors as "masters- classic fiction- best novel ever", it would really help i think if the blurb was tempered and toned down for modern fiction

i understand why modern fiction is lauded, its so relevant, laced with wokery and less brutal than racist, sexist and unsettling traditions from novels written over 50 years ago but modern fiction does recieve far too much hype.

I think reviewers need to be far more careful with modern work and superlatives, although there are gems among the rough and its only my opinion about modern fiction after all, i mean no offense. (i keep forgetting this isnt on the Guardian where some un-invited flamer would leap in and open fire on me...lol)

Gpfr wrote: "I'm reading Gianrico Carofiglio's Le perfezioni provvisorie - translated into French, Le silence pour preuve, by Nathalie Bauer. If I remember correctly, scarletnoir recommended these books about the lawyer Guido Guerrieri. Thank you - I'm enjoying it so far."


Good - I hope that continues to be the case. I have nothing to say about the original or French translation, but enjoyed the English version very much... they are character-driven books, and if you like Guerrieri and his musings, you should enjoy the books.

I have decided to follow the example of others commenting here, and include the translator's name in future - but since my books are not stored in any order, I have been unable to find my copy of that book - the three Carofiglios I did find were all translated by Howard Curtis, and flow very well - he probably did the rest, too.

Something which may (or may not) interest AB, CCC and anyone who has commented on Finnish/Swedish links - the Åland archipelago is an autonomous Finnish province - with Swedish as the only official language. This confused me a lot when I watched a drama series set there recently!
https://www.visitfinland.com/article/...

scarletnoir wrote: "Georg wrote: "Hitler brushed (Hamsun) off re Norway in 1943. Didn't change Hamsun's adoration of him though."

Hamsun is, I think, a good example of an author whose (early) books can be enjoyed wit..."

There was a good Norwegian film about Hamsun and his family during the Second World War. It came out a few years ago.

scarletnoir wrote: "Something which may (or may not) interest AB, CCC and anyone who has commented on Finnish/Swedish links - the Åland archipelago is an autonomous Finnish province - with Swedish as the only official..."
Thanks scarlet, it looks like an interesting place to visit. I remember that series and was prompted to look up where it was at the time.

scarletnoir wrote: "Something which may (or may not) interest AB, CCC and anyone who has commented on Finnish/Swedish links - the Åland archipelago is an autonomous Finnish province - with Swedish as the only official..."

i am an aland island fan! the coastal region of West Finland also has a swedish speaking majority

Robert wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Georg wrote: "Hitler brushed (Hamsun) off re Norway in 1943. Didn't change Hamsun's adoration of him though."

Hamsun is, I think, a good example of an author whose (early) book..."

i must watch that, there is also a very good norwegian film about King Haakon during WW2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kin...

Almost done with my Scottish trip, having spent the last week or so in the eastern Cairngorms, with Cairngorms: A Secret History by Patrick Baker.
I very much enjoyed Baker’s more recent book, The Unremembered Places: Exploring Scotland's Wild Histories, and read this, and enjoyed it almost as much. He manages to balance his own adventure, with the nature, history and literature of the area really well.
Amongst his chosen histories of the range, he searches for the El Alamein Refuge, built by soldiers of the 51st Highland Division on a minor and seldom-visited ridge because of a navigational error, unreached by paths, and therefore left untouched when the other mountain shelters were dismantled in the 1970s. He hunts for the location of ancient gem mines, and skeletal aircraft remains on the summits of Braeriach, Ben Macdui and Beinn a’ Bhuird.
And, most appealingly for me, investigates the legend of the Big Grey Man of Ben Macdui, a giant, yeti-like creature, stalking the hillside, often in conditions of mist and snow. He was first spoken about in 1925, when Professor J. Norman Collie, addressing the Cairngorm Club, which is now the oldest surviving climbing club (formed in 1887), in 1925..

Every few steps I heard a crunch, then another crunch as if someone was walking after me but taking steps three or four times the length of my own. I said to myself ‘this is all nonsense’. I listened and heard it again but could see nothing in the mist. As I walked on and the eerie crunch, crunch sounded behind me I was seized with terror and took to my heels, staggering blindly among the boulders for four or five miles nearly down to Rothiemurchus Forest. Whatever you make of it I do not know, but there is something very queer about the top of Ben Macdui and I will not go back there again by myself I know.

More on the Grey Man.. there’s a BBC audio version of a story called The Grey Man and other Lost Legends, which is well worth a listen, a sort of hybrid of the supernatural and sci-fi, cleverly done (link here https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000... ). Rather than dwell on superstition for too long, Baker looks also at John Geiger’s study into The Third Man Factor: The Secret To Survival In Extreme Environments in his book; which I’m keen to read as soon as I can locate a copy.

All in all, this is a compelling narrative bound together by the incredible landscape and the history of mountaineering.

AB76 wrote: "Andy wrote: "Blood Crime by Sebastià Alzamora , translated by Martha Tennent.
Small groups of the clergy managed to survive in Civi..."

I must get on to Rodoreda..
By Bonet, are you referring to The Sea? It’s on my tbr list also if so..

With you on Diego Marani SN.
I remember a discussion on TLS after I’d read and reviewed The Last of the Vostyachs, which I can recommend, as good as Finnish Grammar, maybe a bit better.
As with his character in the book, he’s fascinated by languages. A bit of a one off. He invented his own language, Europanto.. and indeed, one of his novels, which I haven’t read and I don’t think is available in English, Las adventures des inspector Cabillot, was written in that language..

Andy wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Andy wrote: "Blood Crime by Sebastià Alzamora , translated by Martha Tennent.
Small groups of the clergy managed to su..."

Yes Andy, the Bonet novel is next on my list after i finish the Eleanor Dark novel. The Rodoreda i enjoyed last year was Garden By The Sea

Andy wrote: "Almost done with my Scottish trip, having spent the last week or so in the eastern Cairngorms, with Cairngorms: A Secret History by Patrick Baker. [bookcover:Cair..."

really glad you got out and about mate, you choose wisely, you stuck to the UK and chose somewhere horde-free!!

Just started leafing through: Ordnance Survey Memoirs of Ireland: Vol. 39: Counties of South Ulster: 1834-8

Its a collection of the aborted 1834-8 Ordnance Survey of Ireland, ordered by the Duke of Wellington, then Prime Minister and was planned as a study of Ireland, townland by townland. Sadly by the time Peel suceeded the Iron Duke it was seen as far too costly and was wound up/.

However the survey for most of Ulster (all counties) was completed and The Institute of Irish Studies has published affordable versions of the studies, which give a detailed picture of pre-famine Ulster(people forget it devastated large regions there too)

My edition covers South Ulster,basically the Ulster counties that did not get included in Northern Ireland, minus Donegal. Its fascinating to read the details compiled(ie habits of the populace, religious affiliation,descriptions of woodland, who owned the land,climate observations, mills, forts and castles)

I started on Co Cavan, which by 1911 had lost 60% of its population, compared to 1829(pre-famine). Shocking

Andy wrote: "(Marani) invented his own language, Europanto.. and indeed, one of his novels, which I haven’t read and I don’t think is available in English, Las adventures des inspector Cabillot, was written in that language."

That's pretty extreme, though it isn't the only book containing an 'invented' language by any means! My grandfather learnt the artificial language Esperanto, which as far as I know never really caught on in a big way... actually, maybe that's unfair - a quick check on Wikipedia estimates the number of users as roughly 100,000.

Georg wrote: "...I am also interested in the art of literary translation....

Well, I had a bit of a panic today when I decided to look up the book and carry out my promise - I couldn't find it! Eventually, it resurfaced... the commentary is pretty short - I just like the way the translator expresses his ideas. So, this is what Andrew R. MacAndrew wrote in a foreword to 'The Brothers Karamazov':

A NOTE FROM THE TRANSLATOR

The best way of handling translation is about as slippery a business as the best way of organizing a society, the best way of living a life, or, for that matter, the best way of writing. In dealing with a piece of literature a translator must hear its tone, judge its language, appreciate its style, and understand its subtleties of meaning, and then as if such passive appreciation were not hard enough, he must recreate all these features as closely as possible in a tongue foreign to the original.

In trying to convey the essence of a literary work in another language, he is in the position of a conductor of an orchestra of outlandish instruments asked to perform a classical symphony. He must first adapt the piece to the unfamiliar instruments and then guide his barbarous musicians through it. If he is tone-deaf in the language into which he translates, the effect may be like playing the "Moonlight Sonata" on a tin can.

This translation was published in 1970 by Bantam Books, and published simultaneously in the USA and Canada. As I spent the summer of 1970 on a working holiday in New York, followed by a month on the Greyhound buses going all over, I may have bought this to accompany me on my travels...

I can't compare it to other translations; it's the only one I have read - twice, or maybe three times - and remains in my memory as possibly the best novel I have ever read - so the translation must have worked for me, at least. In any case, as I have no Russian, my reaction can only express an opinion on the book in translation, and not the original...

scarletnoir wrote: "Andy wrote: "(Marani) invented his own language, Europanto.. and indeed, one of his novels, which I haven’t read and I don’t think is available in English, Las adventures des inspector Cabillot, wa..."

i think i briefly did some esperanto at school, as part of exploring language construction but i remember very little about it

scarletnoir wrote: the commentary is pretty short - I just like the way the translator expresses his ideas. So, this is what Andrew R. MacAndrew wrote in a foreword to 'The Brothers Karamazov':

Short, but perfectly formed. I'll keep that.

My contribution is more prosaic.

When Swetlana Geier died in 2010, at the age of 87, she was honoured with numerous obituaries.

A lecturer and translator of Russian literature of the 19th and 20th century for over 30 years she became famous for her Dostojewski translations.
She had saved him up until she was 67. It took her 16 years to translate his five greatest works.

There is a documentary about her and her work: Die Frau mit den fünf Elefanten (The Woman with the Five Elephants) (2009). The five elephants are FD's novels.

Her method was certainly interesting for somebody so experienced:
She didn't write anything down, she directly dictated to her secretary, who had an input by questioning/correcting things.
She then gave the typed version to a friend, who, in her view, had "the perfect ear" for style and grammar
Translation as teamwork.

That she dared change the title of "Crime and Punishment" caused quite a few discussions.
As long as anybody could think back the title of this work had been Schuld und Sühne (Guilt and Atonement). In her translation it became Verbrechen und Strafe (Crime and Punishment).
The defenders of the traditional title argued it was more in the spirit of the book. And that it also sounded better/more harmonious (the latter is certainly true).
All agree though that the original title leaves both possibilities open.

There was some discussion in the "Master and Margarita" RG about different translations.
Altogether it seems that Russian is a trickier language to translate than many others.

SG's early biog is quite interesting.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetlan...

It's odd how one gets easily diverted on the net, so for the someone (I forget who) has mentioned reading about Vietnam, here is a clip -

Ward Just. The great American political writer’s morally complex novels of power and influence include American Romantic , the story of a young foreign service officer in 1960s Indochina.

In my ongoing series of posts about modern book censorship, here's an article by Laura Miller about Elin Hilderbrand and Casey McQuiston agreeing to modify future editions of their novels in response to objections raised by social media users.

As described in an article in Publishers Weekly, readers on Instagram criticized Hilderbrand’s summer 2021 book, The Golden Girl, for a passage in which two teens, Vivi and Savannah, discuss plans for Vivi to hide out in the attic of Savannah’s house without Savannah’s parents’ knowledge: “You’re suggesting I hide here all summer?” Vivi asks. “Like … like Anne Frank?” The two friends laugh at this, but Vivi thinks to herself, “Is it really funny, and is Vivi so far off base?”

On an Instagram post in Hilderbrand’s publisher’s feed, a user who goes by the name “poursandpages” posted a comment (since deleted) denouncing this joke as “horrifically” antisemitic and demanding an apology. Others described themselves as “disgusted” and “gobsmacked in every way with the insensitivity” and accused Hilderbrand of thinking “antisemitism is funny.” After trying to put out these fires via DMs, Hilderbrand issued a formal apology and stated that the line would be removed from the book.

Georg wrote: "There is a documentary about (Swtlana Geier) and her work: Die Frau mit den fünf Elefanten (The Woman with the Five Elephants) (2009). The five elephants are FD's novels."

Thank you for that... I was intrigued that there are five so-called 'elephants' in the German view of Dostoyevsky - in the English-speaking world, we'd tend to think there are only four... my first guess as to the identity of the fifth was the brilliant Notes from Underground - though it's short - or, perhaps, The House of the Dead. The fifth, though, appears to be a book variously entitled A Raw Youth or The Adolescent in English... and I haven't read it.

As for the translations into German of the title "Crime and Punishment", I can quite understand both arguments - but, really, changing the title as was done by the first translators is a bit naughty, as it acts as something of a spoiler - or, at least, pre-disposes the reader to a certain interpretation. It scans better, yes, but...

Bill wrote: "In my ongoing series of posts about modern book censorship, here's an article by Laura Miller about Elin Hilderbrand and Casey McQuiston agreeing to modify future e..."

I think I can guess your own reaction... I have visited the Anne Frank House twice, and commented on that recently... as for the quote, it seems to me just the sort of embarrassing stupidity a teen might blurt out, 'without thinking'. I see no reason for it to be altered, as it has the ring of truth. There is such a thing as being over-sensitive...

MK wrote: "It's odd how one gets easily diverted on the net, so for the someone (I forget who) has mentioned reading about Vietnam, here is a clip -

Ward Just. The great American political writer’s morally ..."

twas me who was reading an Aussie novel about 'Nam back in May, this book looks interesting MK, thanks for the tip

scarletnoir wrote: "Georg wrote: "There is a documentary about (Swtlana Geier) and her work: Die Frau mit den fünf Elefanten (The Woman with the Five Elephants) (2009). The five elephants are FD's novels."

Thank you ..."

the Adolescent totally passed me by when i devoured all the other elephants (minus Karamazov) in my 20s. I am not sure why it was less prominent, maybe 20 years ago it was less translated. its in my house somewhere and i may elevate it to being a 2021 read, if i can find it!!! i also have "The Humiliated and Insulted", an early novel from 1861 in another pile

this is my version of Humiliated and Insulted and its a new translation from 2008, i think i will bump this up the list

AB - I no longer remember the title, but some time after reading the four great novels, I tried another one, and failed to get into it. It may have been one of the two you mention, but I don't recall...

Since in general the later works are better than the earlier ones (or anyway have a better reputation), The Adolescent/A Raw Youth (1875) is more likely to be good than Humiliated and Insulted (1861). Dostoyevsky was no stranger to money troubles, of course, and anything written in a hurry is less likely to be of the highest standard (I suppose) - anyway, 'The Gambler', which was discussed a while back was a rush job. After losing all his money at the roulette tables:

Fyodor Dostoevsky then agreed to a hazardous contract with F. T. Stellovsky that if he did not deliver a novel of 12 or more signatures by 1 November 1866, Stellovsky would acquire the right to publish Dostoevsky's works for nine years, until 1 November 1875, without any compensation to the writer.[2][4] He noted down parts of his story, then dictated them to one of the first stenographers in Russia and his wife-to-be, young Anna Grigorevna, who transcribed them and copied it neatly out for him.[1][4] With her help, he was able to finish the book in time. (from Wikipedia).

The book was - "The Gambler"!

I am not familiar with the circumstances in which the others were written.

(I should add that perhaps I failed to complete the book because the translation was poor - but I don't know.)

scarletnoir wrote: "Georg wrote: "There is a documentary about (Swtlana Geier) and her work: Die Frau mit den fünf Elefanten (The Woman with the Five Elephants) (2009). The five elephants are FD's novels."

Thank you ..."

I haven't seen the film, but the elephants were her personal ones:
The Brothers K, Crime and Punishment, the Demons, The Idiot, The Adolescent.
She also translated The Gambler and Notes from Underground.

She wasn't the first one to translate the title as "Crime and Punishment", there were two translators in the early 20th c who went before her.

But she was the first one to always leave one word untranslated. A Dosto neologism which he used in several of his books: "nadryw" loosely denotes a state of extreme emotional tension . She said it was untranslateable because its meaning was variable, depending on context.

My Bulgakow translation was by the second most acclaimed translator of Russian. It would be interesting to compare it with SG's.

Talking of elephants (but completely off book topics) I couldn't help but be amused at this story:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world...

scarletnoir wrote: "AB - I no longer remember the title, but some time after reading the four great novels, I tried another one, and failed to get into it. It may have been one of the two you mention, but I don't reca..."

i read the translators notes on "Humiliated and Insulted" briefly before heading down to my volunteering and he suggests that its one of his best early novels. its on my list now for an autumn read, bit congested before then, in TBR-land!

scarletnoir wrote: "I think I can guess your own reaction... "

What surprises me is that the authors agreed to make changes to their published texts (though this may increase the price for used copies of the earlier editions). An author who can't face down or at least ignore irate readers of this sort has no business publishing books.

In sampling the deluge of recent Philip Roth articles, I discovered that Anne Frank is a kind of spectral character in The Ghost Writer. But no doubt the readers that object to Hilderbrand’s book don't have the brow height to undertake Roth, or for that matter Nathan Englander's What We Talk About When We Talk About Anne Frank.

After finishing the triumvirate of Fryderyk Chopin: A Life and Times, The Romantic Generation, and Robert Schumann: Herald of a New Poetic Age earlier this year, I’ve been listening to music even more often than I was previously (no doubt to the detriment of my reading). Moving on from Romantic paino music, I’ve been listening more recently to Baroque and Medieval music. (It occurs to me that if one published a modernized version of Roman de Fauvel, it might well be received as an all-too-obvious polemic against Donald Trump.)

I note a kind of watershed in music with the passing of Beethoven: after him, there is an emphasis among most serious composers in producing “masterpieces”, whereas the idea, at least as we now think of it, does not seem to have previously been a consideration, except perhaps as applied to a work which shows a “mastery” of the art. Of course, Beethoven himself composed a considerable amount of occasional music and some works purely for the sake of income, and subsequent composers still consciously produced non-masterpieces, such as Schumann’s Hausmusik or Hindemith’s Gebrauchmusik, but such terms connote ambition on a considerably smaller scale. On the other hand, Mahler, for instance, set out to compose only masterpieces.

Is there a parallel in Literature? Did, say, War and Peace set a standard for novels to strive toward “masterpiece” status? And are things like thrillers and series mysteries a form of literary Gebrauchmusik? Are Scarlatti Sonatas the musical equivalent of Rex Stout mysteries?

I am reading A Ghost in the Throat Doireann Ni Ghriofa.
Here is a tale about a lament, a real Irish poem composed in the eighteenth century comprising thirty five stanzas. Incidentally, I learned that the word stanza comes from 16C Italian meaning ‘room’.

Our modern day protagonist, mother of four small children, preoccupied with providing breast milk, housework, laundry and all the other bone wearying tasks of being a parent of young children, is obsessed with the poem, having cleaved it to her since first reading it at school.

The poem tells of the death of Eibhlín Dubh Ní Chonaill’s Caoineadh‘s husband, how he is shot and his blooded horse gallops home. Eibhlin (Nelly) mounts and rides to where the body lies and drinks of his blood.

I have learned a little more Irish history which I knew nothing about. Here, again, the English as colonists, Protestants, in 1697 passed some draconian laws, the Penal Laws, which were not repealed until late in the 18C ,the last not until 1829. Sometimes we English cannot help feeling ashamed at the doings of our ancestors.

These Penal Laws were designed to eradicate Catholicism.
‘Under the Penal Laws, the Catholics could not hold commission in the army, enter a profession, or own a horse worth more than five pounds. Catholics could not possess weaponry and arms, could not study law or medicine, and could not speak or read Gaelic or play Irish music (The Penal Laws). The most impactful rules to the Irish, however, were the rules surrounding the ownership of land. The Popery Act of 1703, passed by the British parliament, forbade the Catholics to pass down their land to their eldest son, and instead required landowners to distribute the land equally amongst all sons. Moreover, if the family bore only daughters, the land were to be also split equally amongst the daughters (Harvey 56). As a result, by the end of 1703, Irish Catholics who made up 90% of Ireland’s population owned less that 10% of the land (The Penal Laws)’

A Ghost in the Throat is about the woman finding her voice through her research into the poem. I remember my intense struggles to find my own voice when I was the mother of three children under five and the book resonates with me. It is sad that many, women and men, never truly find theirs.
More about the book later.

CCCubbon wrote: "I am reading A Ghost in the Throat Doireann Ni Ghriofa.
Here is a tale about a lament, a real Irish poem composed in the eighteenth century comprising thirty five stanzas. Incidentally, I learned ..."

yet the catholic faith held up well in Ireland,amid the traumatic events from 1700s to 1920s.. by the 1860s, Protestants were still a significant minority but within 50 years they were fading everywhere but Ulster, the wars of 1919-22 saw the first major exodus and after that the Irish Free State began its own discriminatory laws, including where mixed marriages ended in the catholic faith being passed onto children

i havent found any accurate stats but i think in the 1750-1800 period, the Protestant population was probably at its highest, maybe even 30%. The Penal Laws would be one reason as well as more Protestant migration to Ireland.

CCCubbon wrote: "AB76 wrote: "MK wrote: "AB76 wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Getting along well with the Marc Morris The Anglo Saxons. The difficulty in writing about this period is that there is litt..."

My contribution to this is that I am very upset I have had to postpone a week's trip to Finland scheduled for next week, since Finland has pushed back the opening date for US citizens to 6/27 or later. My EU pp is no good either as I am a dual US/UK citizen and UK is banned. Oh well, I can reschedule and hopefully will be able to visit soon. It's very disappointing as I am tired of sitting in a box due to the stupidity of our science-deficient, macho, good-for-nothing leaders.

Sandya wrote: "I am tired of sitting in a box due to the stupidity of our science-deficient, macho, good-for-nothing leaders."

I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.

Sandya wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "AB76 wrote: "MK wrote: "AB76 wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Getting along well with the Marc Morris The Anglo Saxons. The difficulty in writing about this period is t..."

oh dear sandya, i think any travel is risky right now, not cos of covid but due to all the red tape, quarantine and delays

i will be spending a second summer staycating, not worth the effort to try and go through the hoops right now

Bill wrote(79): "In my ongoing series of posts about modern book censorship, here's an article by Laura Miller about Elin Hilderbrand and Casey McQuiston agreeing to modify future e..."

Another quote in the article you linked made me laugh, because it is so absurd:
"...another Twitter user explained that “mentions of Israel (especially when they’re completely unnecessary as well, such as in books/films/shows) normalize the occupation of Palestine. All mentions, even ones that don’t outwardly seem bad, are wrong.”

Maybe Schrödinger could have advised how that could be handled. Alas, he is dead.

But this extremist wokery-malarkey is no laughing matter. As the article makes clear: the number of zealots might be limited. But the more attention they get the more influence and power they'll accrue and the faster their number will grow.

There is, in principle, no difference to what the CPC has done: under Mao there were re-education camps for people who didn't tread the party line. They were brainwashed.To get out they had to publicly confess: I have done wrong, I regret it, I apologize, I will never sin again.
As soon as you have built up a solid base of supporters you can ditch your education camps. The society you have created will take over. Those who dissent risk losing friends, professional networks, their reputation, even their existence.
Dictatorial regimes. Organised religion. Expose, shame, sanction. Same old, same old in new clothes.
Gives me the creeps tbh

Georg wrote: "Bill wrote(79): "In my ongoing series of posts about modern book censorship, here's an article by Laura Miller about Elin Hilderbrand and Casey McQuiston agreeing t..."

it can be remarkable how populations close their minds to the states they live in and becoming aggressively "private souls".

It occurs in two very different systems in 2021:
In China, the populace turn inwards and pursue selfish needs, ignoring the ultra-vigalant super state and its suppression of all who dissent. keep the head down, stay private
In the UK, the populace turn inwards and pursue selfish needs, voting Conservative, but they look for a reduction in the reach of the state and pursue a relentlessly individualistic libertarianism.

Censorship and monitoring flourish in these worlds, where the masses are happy to have a private sphere and let the public one rot

I've read relatively little Stephen King, and nothing recently, but last night I dreamed I was on the phone with him and having a hard time finding a way to convince him that I wasn't a computer.

AB76 wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "I am reading A Ghost in the Throat Doireann Ni Ghriofa.
Here is a tale about a lament, a real Irish poem composed in the eighteenth century comprising thirty five stanzas. Inciden..."

The Catholic faith certainly survived in Ireland despite the Penal Laws . Maybe the imposition of laws to stamp out any religion is doomed to fail in the long term, does saying you must not worship in this way really make those worshippers’ faith stronger? Maybe not today so much in western culture.

CCCubbon wrote: "AB76 wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "I am reading A Ghost in the Throat Doireann Ni Ghriofa.
Here is a tale about a lament, a real Irish poem composed in the eighteenth century comprising thirty five sta..."

i am have always been interested in how Catholicism in particular had a strong presence throughout the British Empire. The 1650-1800 attempts at controlling and diminishing the faith had more effect in the UK than elsewhere but by the 1830s, the emancipation of Catholics meant that the Empire was dotted with missionaries and catholics in prominent positions. As well as inheriting significant catholic subjects in Malta, India(still the majority of Christians in India are Catholic) and other places.

An australian(Catholic) friend posed me that question about a decade ago, if the British had been so anti-catholic, how was the faith spread throughout its dominions(white majority) and elsewhere. The answer was the emancipation laws of the 1820 and 1830s removed most barriers for Catholics. With two important qualifers that wealth and position was still important and most of the Irish MPs who led the call for a united ireland were from landed Anglo-Norman (old English) families like John Redmond

Back to your earlier point, i think imposition breeds rebellion, possibly in ireland it was less to do with god fearing cross bearing and masses, more a nationalist reaction against the cursed occupiers. Poland in the Communist years and a lesser extent Lithaunia had the catholic church as a unifier against the communists, a quiet but subtle public force. (sadly now like in ireland until the 1970s, Poland is in the grip of an ultra-catholic, conservative public approach to life, it held Ireland back from the 1920s-1960s and it may hold Poland back too(tolerance of all people, womens rights to choose abortion etc)

I've spent much time re-reading favorite bits of books. However, now I can report a new book (to me, anyway) completely read.

"The Witches of Karres" is pure space opera. In the beginning, our hapless hero buys three girls out of slavery. He learns that the girls had many supernatural ways to exhaust their owners, and that they have agendas of their own. Sounds like any group of schoolgirls, but these can move and shift.. had some fun with their adventures.