Never too Late to Read Classics discussion

July-September
Shirley by Charlotte Brontë 624 pages
Have you ever met a girl with a name usually given to boys, like Dani or Charlie? Or a boy who has a name usually given to girls, like Ashley or Jamie? As you might be aware, names shift over time, just like any other social trend. What you probably don't know is that the 1849 novel, Shirley, written by Charlotte Bronte under the pseudonym Currer Bell, is responsible for the name Shirley changing from almost an exclusively male name to an almost exclusively female name. The main character is a girl, but she was born into a wealthy family and her father gave her a boy's name because he wanted a son.

Charlotte Bronte wrote Shirley after she published her possibly best-known work, Jane Eyre. She wanted to write something different, and Shirley is the result: a social novel that contrasts two female heroines, Shirley and Caroline, to explore what a woman's life would be like if freed from the restrictive social conventions of the time by independent wealth.

I know there are several of us interested in this one? Are you in for this read?

I’ll be joining in.

I read this many years ago and remember liking it a lot.

I'll be joining in too. Will be starting around mid-month.

This has been on my TBR list for 2 years now. It’s a book that I ought to read, so I may try it this month.

I don't remember ever reading this one, so I'll be joining - probably later in the month.

I started this once and could not get into it so didn't finish it. I have thought of trying it again but don't think I will do that this year.

Glad to have you join in with us John!

I’ll be joining for this one, the reviews I’ve seen so far have been very polarised. It seems to be a love it or loathe it book (a Marmite book as we’d say here in the UK.)

I started reading but stopped after the first chapter. Somehow, reading it exhausted me. Perhaps, I wasn't in the right mood. But I really want to read this, so will be switching to audio.

Does anyone reading feel some similarity between North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell and Shirley? The opening chapters seem to have a vague similarity with N&S. And there is a clergyman called Mr. Helstone in both books. :)

Piyangie wrote: "Does anyone reading feel some similarity between North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell and Shirley? The opening chapters seem to have a vague similarity with N&S. And there is a clergyman called Mr...."

Yes, Piyangie, it seems similar with the workers protesting against their employers & the use of local dialect to create a noticeable difference between the classes. My initial reaction was that I much prefer North and South, but as the story develops it has become more interesting. My first impression was that the author was trying too hard to impress readers with her knowledge instead of telling a story. I really dislike it when a British author writes sections of a book in another language then translates them back to English. It seems both pointless and pretentious.

Trisha wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "Does anyone reading feel some similarity between North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell and Shirley? The opening chapters seem to have a vague similarity with N&S. And there is a cle..."

I also prefer North and South. However, I'm still in the early stages and happy to hear there will be promising developments. I agree with your observation of Charlotte Bronte. She is so fond of pouring her knowledge and opinions to the extent of forgetting that she is indeed writing a story. :) The copy I read is full of french and no translation, so I have to read through them slowly. My french is limited. It was better and easier if everything was in English. But I believe she may have wanted to impress upon us the Moore's French ancestry by the usage of the language.

Piyangie wrote “...But I believe she may have wanted to impress upon us the Moore's French ancestry by the usage of the language.”

Good point, Piyangie - I hadn’t considered that.

Trisha wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "Does anyone reading feel some similarity between North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell and Shirley? The opening chapters seem to have a vague similarity with N&S. And there is a cle..."

That's interesting, as I believe Elizabeth Gaskell and Charlotte Bronte were friends.

Caroline Helstone reminds me of Jane Eyre, unwanted and unloved. I'm beginning to positively dislike her uncle, Mr. Helstone for suppressing her so.

I finished the book today. Sorry, it wasn’t for me. I thought this was the worst of the Charlotte Bronte books that I’ve read. (view spoiler)[The initial similarity with North and South was very superficial & the author seemed to lose interest in this aspect of her story. (hide spoiler)]

I'm surprised at the way the story is turning out. Charlotte says that this is no romance and that we readers mustn't expect one. But all this time (I'm still at ch. 14) what I've been reading is how much Caroline pines for Robert Moore!

I'm sorry it didn't work for you, Trisha. I too am not in favor of the book at present.

This is sad for me. I have had this on my TBR pile for a long time. I might just shuffle it down in the pile now.

I've started listening to Shirley and it took a few chapters to relate to the characters. There's some politics of the time in these first chapters that bogs the narrative down.

The part where Mr. Moore and his sister, Hortense, are at breakfast is quite humorous.

I also have a Penguin Classic edition of the book and I'm referring to that for the translations of the French and to remember the names of the characters.

It's not like Jane Eyre, but I'm enjoying this so far.

I'm in ch. 19 and enjoying it. The action in this chapter ((view spoiler)[ attack on Robert't Moore's Mill (hide spoiler)]) reminds me of similar action on Marlborough Mills in North and South.

I read this one years ago when I was travelling around England. It's an interesting read and you learn where the term Luddite originated from ;-)

I finished the book. It turned a little better than I hoped. The first two parts were slow but I picked up on the latter two. I was disappointed in the subplot of masters and workers, however. Charlotte has done a very superficial and half-job there. I liked the characters and enjoyed their turbulent romances. This is a romance novel as I see it, no matter what the author says.

I finished the book today. I agree with Piyangie about this being a romance novel, even though the author said it wasn't.

This book was excellent as a character study of Shirley, along with Caroline Helstone, and the two Moore brothers. I admired Bronte's creation of Shirley, who I believe was the mouthpiece for Bronte's own opinions about the relationships between women and men.

The story itself seemed to me not as compelling as the characters, even though I did want to find out what happened.

3.5 stars

Starting today: Shirley

Let us know what you think Gilbert!
Happy Reading :)

FINISHED CHAPTER 2
It's the last part of the three-month hefty read time and I have finally got around to starting this. it has a quite interesting beginning, more so than other Charlotte novels. As I work in labor relations, I have as interest in the subject matter of the Luddite type uprising against industrial machinery. I am curious about the clergy's role in this conflict.

I look forward to reading more of this book so I can possibly look at the previous posts in this thread without risking spoilers. I did glance at the ones comparing it to North and South and, with the industrial setting and worker rebellion aspects, there are some similar elements. I would agree with the comment that there is a "vague similarity." However, North and South is at its core a romance about a young strong-willed woman, Margaret Hale, adapting to life in her new industrial setting whereas this story appears to be primarily about the industrial setting itself and Charlotte has promised no romance, hasn't she? ;)
(Despite Charlotte's exhortation for the reader NOT to expect romance, I kind of still do. I don't know how she will be able to keep romance totally out of this very long story.)

Since a comparison is made to North and South, I am reposting a comment I made in another group:

"In David Lodge's humorous novels The Campus Trilogy: Changing Places / Small World / Nice Work, which I read a few years ago, the protagonist, a professor at a fictional Birmingham university, taught a course on Victorian Industrial Novels that included the following novels:

Mary Barton by Elizabeth Gaskell
North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell
Sybil, or the Two Nations by Benjamin Disraeli
Alton Locke, Tailor and Poet: An Autobiography by Charles Kingsley
Shirley by Charlotte Brontë
Felix Holt: The Radical by George Eliot, and
Hard Times by Charles Dickens

I found this grouping of industrial novels to be an intriguing one."

While I've read both Gaskells, the Dickens and plan on Felix Holt someday, I don't think I'll ever get around to reading the Kingsley or Disraeli books. Their reviews indicate that they are on the dry side, although Rosemarie rated Alton Locke at 4 stars

I've read all of them except Hard Times.
I do remember enjoying Sybil, or the Two Nations but that was years before I joined goodreads.

I’ve read North and South and now Shirley. I’ll read Mary Barton probably next year. It’s interesting to read them as Victorian Industrial novels.

Lesle wrote: "July-September
Shirley by Charlotte Brontë 624 pages
Have you ever met a girl with a name usually given to boys, like Dani or Charlie? Or a boy who has a name usually ..."
the last man I am aware of with the name Shirley was a famous sportswriter named Shirley Povich. He is also the father of TV host Maurey Povich.

MALE SHIRLEYs (from Wikipedia)
Shirley Abbott (1923–2013), American businessman, diplomat, and politician
Shirley Abbott (1889–1947), English footballer
Shirley Brooks (1816–1874), English journalist
Shirley Burden (1908–1989), American photographer
Shirley Crabtree (1930–1997), English professional wrestler
Shirley Love (1933–2020), American politician and broadcaster journalist
Shirley Povich (1905–1998), American sports columnist and reporter
Shirley Leon Quimby (1893–1986), American physicist
Shirley Waldemar Baker (1836–1903) English missionary and Prime Minister of Tonga
Shirley Wilson (1925–2021), American football coach

Thanx for the additional information, surely. Just don't call me Shirley.

FINISHED CHAPTER VII

I like reading classical novels because they contain a more interesting and usually accurate portrait of the societal practices of the time period than non-fiction accounts. I try not to look down on characters for conforming to the outlook and practices of the time. From my reading of Victorian novels, I have learned a lot about English society at the time, including the fairly high level of anti-Semitic sentiment and practice accepted in the society.
However, the "Jew-basket" that Caroline currently keeps in chapter VII is a new one to me. While I haven't found anything about Jew-baskets themselves, I have found materials on the formal societies they likely funded, societies devoted to the Christian conversion of the Jews .
Caroline also has a "missionary basket" for the "coloured population of the globe." I was raised Roman Catholic and during grammar school in the 1960s I remember funds being collected for missionaries to convert the pagans of Africa, Asia and the Pacific Islands. While I would not have thought of the funds being used at home for conversion of Jews, it really isn't that much of a stretch, similar to how the Mormons do missions at home and abroad.
Bronte describes an interesting methodology where women are creating basket items which are then sold at "prices unblushingly exorbitant." I also liked the system of passing the basket to your neighbor for the month, which Bronte portrays a bit like its giving and receiving a hot potato.

Brian wrote: "FINISHED CHAPTER VII

I like reading classical novels because they contain a more interesting and usually accurate portrait of the societal practices of the time period than non-fiction accounts. I..."

Brian, I know that we have a long, long way still to go to achieve acceptable race relations in both the US and UK, but I can still hardly believe the equivalent practice when I attended my Scottish, Catholic primary school (admittedly a long, long time ago). Each child had to take in a half-penny, and someone went round every classroom with a small bank in the shape of a little African baby, asking for "pennies for the black babies"!

Changed days, thankfully.

As the deadline for this one looms, I've finally got round to starting it. I'm about 1/3 of the way through now, and we've only just met Shirley.

John wrote: "As the deadline for this one looms, I've finally got round to starting it. I'm about 1/3 of the way through now, and we've only just met Shirley."

That's where I am at too. It's a slow read for me as I'm reading several other books too.
I did think it was funny that the first 31% of the book had no Shirley and not even any talk of a Shirley. Then she drops in out of the blue. However, the reader still looks at Shirley mainly as to how she affects Caroline, the character Bronte has made the focus of the book so far. I am interested in how Bronte addresses the character focus in the remaining 2/3.

FINISHED THE BOOK

I did enjoy the characters in this book more than in any previous Charlotte B novel. The book turned out to be more about both Caroline and Shirley as central characters and ended appropriately for that emphasis. Caroline was probably the more empathetic character and Shirley probably the more interesting.

While the storyline was overall a decent one, it also meandered a bit with threads and characters disappearing for awhile. It was overly long and possibly not well planned out. It also had much less of an "industrial novel" feel and more of a" landed gentry" feel that I had anticipated, probably when the central locale turned to Shirley's estate.

Overall, the book seemed more likean early work than others, including Jane Eyre, which was written before this one. Charlotte B even acted as an intrusive narrator at times. Her ending recap unnecessarily updated the reader on characters who had disappeared from the plot for what seemed like eons before.

Good characters. A decent but overlong and meandering plot. Overall a 3 star read.