THE Group for Authors! discussion

Hi, I am an indie writer publishing in Amazon (in spanish) and I would like to know if for you people publishing in english, it is common that some persons, after buying the ebooks, give them back. It only happened to me in the page of Amazon.com (not in Amazon of Spain) and given that I do not sell very much, every time someone give a book back is quite unpleasant. ¿Is it something usual for all of you? ¿What kind of people do this and why Amazon permit devolution of a digital product like ebooks, easily copied?
Thank you very much in advance, if anyone answers...

Yes, it has happened to me too and I've read other threads where people have commented upon it. I recall someone saying there is a site with thousands of ebooks and that their book appeared on the site soon after one of their bought ebooks was returned. I agree with you, I don't know why something isn't done about it.

Unfortunately, Amazon allows returns on ebooks. Some authors' groups have protested, but I've seen it on one of mine.

It happens. Just like any return in a regular store, it could be someone who used the product, then returned it to avoid paying. But it could also be someone who tapped the buy button without meaning to.

As a reader, I wouldn't want to be stuck paying for a book I bought by mistake. As an author, I have nothing to gain from a reluctant reader. So why worry? If it happened in a physical bookstore, you'd never even know.

I agree, CP. I've tapped the purchase button by accident and returned a book immediately. I don't try to second guess the reader/purchaser's motives for returning the book.

And I wouldn't even worry about pirate sites. Those things are so full of viruses that anyone who gets a book from them is more than likely to catch something nasty, and maybe they get what they deserve, downloading a pirated book. Amazon has Digital Rights Management protection options to prevent the average consumer from copying the book and returning it - I think you have to be pretty savvy to get past DRM.

I had the honor of having one of my titles pirated. I see it as my 'having arrived' moment in my career. :)

Ellen wrote: "I had the honor of having one of my titles pirated. I see it as my 'having arrived' moment in my career. :)"

LOL. Yes, exactly. Most of us can only dream....

Google "Armor of Light" and the site pops up. There's nothing I may do about it because it is outside the United States.

That's one way of looking at it. : )

I've had some of mine returned too. If someone hits the wrong button then you would expect it to be returned immediately. When it's a week later, I think it's very suspect and that Amazon should put a 24 hour limit on e-book returns.

Rita, that "week later" thing has shown up on my spreadsheet and it's definitely suspect. If people want to return a book that what's free-lending libraries are for. I've asked my local libraries to add my books to their collections and they have done so without any problems, so you can check out my books at the library without having to pay a penny. Readers can also ask to have books added to the collection.

I didn't know you could give a book back if you got the e-version. Durn. I'd have gotten rid of several if I'd known that. I try to read the excerpt that is usally offered before I buy so I don't get unpleasant surprises, but sometimes the story just starts out good and gets bad. How do we tell if anybody did that to a book we published on Kindle?

Peggy, if you look at your sales report (usually an Excel spreadsheet), you can see if copies were refunded/returned.

I find that the excerpt doesn't give you enough information to judge the book - usually it's the first ten pages or so, and those pages tend to be the table of contents. Clicking on the chapter links sometimes does not work.

I see that I, too, had a book returned. Tsk. It's not as if I were charging the earth for it.

Rita wrote: "I've had some of mine returned too. If someone hits the wrong button then you would expect it to be returned immediately. When it's a week later, I think it's very suspect and that Amazon should put a 24 hour limit on e-book returns."

I'm assuming you've never had the awful experience of getting halfway into a book and found the formatting has gone all to hell? It happens, trust me. There's also the issue that there is a certain segment of authors that only have the first part of their book properly edited. Not to mention authors that take a book that isn't doing well, change the cover and title and put it up for sale as a different book (without noting that it's the same book) that a person may have already purchased. All of these are legitimate reasons why a person might return a book beyond the initial 24-hour period.

Christa, I have - and by well-known authors from big publishing houses.

Ellen wrote: "Christa, I have - and by well-known authors from big publishing houses."

Yes, same here. Formatting problems, especially, seem to occur in every publishing demographic. The irritation level is about the same regardless of whether I've paid 99 cents or $9.99, so price won't prevent me from returning it, provided I notice the problem within the return period.

One of the more humorous typos (and saddest) was in a theology text I purchased for seminary. On the first page, first paragraph of the introduction was "Jesus Chris." That's what happens when you just rely on the computer to proof-read. I'm always mortified when I find typos in my work, which is why I have several 'beta' readers to spot these things.

Ellen wrote: "I'm always mortified when I find typos in my work, which is why I have several 'beta' readers to spot these things. ..."

Apparently you have to be careful with Beta readers - I have heard of an author sending beta copies of their work out and one of their beta readers published it as their own. Now THAT is ballsy.

I make sure we have a contract so that no funny business happens. They have to be people who have read my work before and know how to proof read and edit.

Rita wrote: " When it's a week later, I think it's very suspect and that Amazon should put a 24 hour limit on e-book returns ..."

I'm a reader and I don't believe books should get returned to booksellers unless just exchanging for same due to odd defects (I have gotten some where page printed wonky or too light to read) much less weeks later (possibly holiday extensions for Christmas season in case were gifts).

From what I understood, on amazon's ebook return policy it goes by percentage read versus how long ago purchased. That makes some sense to me (plus I know I download books it takes me a long time to get around to reading); but, I also know that people will pirate for themselves (even if not uploading to the torrent/pirate sites). There will always be those that disrepect copyright permissions and break copy protections. And those who think nothing of reading a book then not buying or returning. But, I'm pretty sure the Amazon policy on ebook returns is just by percentage read.

Ellen wrote: "I make sure we have a contract so that no funny business happens. They have to be people who have read my work before and know how to proof read and edit."

Most beta readers do not expect to be editors.

D.A. wrote: "I'm pretty sure the Amazon policy on ebook returns is just by percentage read. "

Not in my experience. The only ebook returns I've done were for objectively observable quality issues, and I received the full amount. As I should, because a book I can't finish because it's nearly unreadable is actually worse than one I never started reading at all. My time has value.

The beta readers I sign know that they will be editors. It's in the contract.

Ellen wrote: "The beta readers I sign know that they will be editors. It's in the contract."

I can't imagine making my betas sign contracts. I've had people volunteer (or barter with me) to do what amounts to editing, but some of them just give me general notes and impressions. I've never had a plagiarism issue, but I tend to use people who are known to me. BTW, that kind of plagiarism is a copyright violation, even without a contract. You own copyright of your own work. There's no requirement for publication or registry.

Thank you very mucho to all the authors that answered, with their different points of view. Greetings

As far as I know, Amazon doesn't allow the return of books that have been read until the end, but I think it makes sense to allow returns. As some others mentioned, I've accidentally clicked too many times and purchased books I didn't want. As a reader, I'd be leery of using a site that didn't allow returns.
Returns at least mean someone is considering your book, so something is working.
______________
Colleen
Become a successful Kindle author--FREE report!
I know of no genius but the genius of hard work. - John Ruskin

D.A. wrote: "Ellen wrote: "I make sure we have a contract so that no funny business happens. They have to be people who have read my work before and know how to proof read and edit."

Most beta readers do not ..."

I give them the option, especially if they've got experience with editing.

D.C. wrote: "Ellen wrote: "The beta readers I sign know that they will be editors. It's in the contract."

I can't imagine making my betas sign contracts. I've had people volunteer (or barter with me) to do wh..."

DC, I didn't early in my career, but now I only use trusted colleagues and if someone is new or comes recommended, I ask them to show examples of their work. It stems from paying someone $500 years ago to edit, and I found portions of my work incorporated in a book the editor's wife wrote after he finished the editing on my book several months later. His editing amounted to inserting commas everywhere. I have nothing against the Oxford Comma, but....

Nope, amount read has nothing to do with amazon's return policy. I actually have returned a fully-read book, though that was only once and out of thousands of books that I've purchased.

Anyway, no need to speculate, here's what they actually say:

"Returning Kindle Books
Books you purchase from the Kindle Store are eligible for return and refund if we receive your request within seven days of the date of purchase. Once a refund is issued, you'll no longer have access to the book. To request a refund and return content, visit Manage Your Content and Devices, select the Actions button next to the title you'd like to return, and select Return for refund, or contact customer service."

Hello, Savitri, it's cool to find another spanish author in here (I am too, I could even reply you in spanish but since this is an english forum I'll keep it this way), I haven't had that refund problem yet (though it's still too soon to count the chickens before they hatch) but I'm aware of it and I think seven days is too much for a refund request, anyone could finish a book in less than that.
Also, talking about unpleasant episodes, maybe the refund thing hasn't happened to me yet, but I think having sent a print copy to someone that didn't even read half of it before quitting is maybe right up that alley.

Ellen wrote: "I had the honor of having one of my titles pirated. I see it as my 'having arrived' moment in my career. :)"

Ellen, I've selected rights management, thinking it would help against that. (I get that there are arguments in favor of pirating.) Your thoughts? Is it possible or likely that one's books will get pirated given one more than the other?

DRM does nothing to stop piracy, but it can make things inconvenient for readers. I don't use it on my books. If your book has been out for more than a few days, it's likely to show up on many pirate sites, regardless of DRM. Most of them just "scrape" Amazon listings and are scams to capture unwary readers' credit cards; they don't actually have a copy of the book available for download.

Gregg wrote: "Ellen wrote: "I had the honor of having one of my titles pirated. I see it as my 'having arrived' moment in my career. :)"

Ellen, I've selected rights management, thinking it would help against ..."

Sorry, Gregg, there are NO arguments in favor of pirating. Pirating is theft, plain and simple.

Ken wrote: "DRM does nothing to stop piracy, but it can make things inconvenient for readers. I don't use it on my books. If your book has been out for more than a few days, it's likely to show up on many pira..."

Ken, I've started asking my readers to purchase only at the larger online bookstores, like Amazon and Barnes & Noble, Powell's. This is counter to my belief in a free enterprise system, giving all my business to the big boys, but unless and until the issue of piracy is taken care of - which, will probably never happen, by the way - it's the safest alternative for me. That, or just publish in Trade Paperback and Hardback, which is also counter to my beliefs where it concerns publishing.

Most pirated copies are covered in Trosian horses and viruses.

As Ken already stated, DRM does nothing to stop piracy and just annoys readers. For years in New Zealand we had kobo but not kindles. I had a kobo, bought all my books from Amazon and used Calibre to move them to the kobo. If they had DRM, Calibre strips it out automatically, I didn't even notice. I'm no pirates, I just used the e-reader that was available in my country.

Even publishing in paperback only won't stop pirates. It's easy to pull apart a book, scan and upload. There was a blog post a couple of years ago with some funny examples where it had happened and the e-books had coffee rings on pages, library stamps and handwritten notes in the margins.

A.W. wrote: "If they had DRM, Calibre strips it out automatically, I didn't even notice."

Obligatory clarification - Calibre doesn't strip DRM. Unaffiliated third-party plugins, only installable by the end user and never packaged with nor endorsed by the Calibre developers, are available that do this.

Sorry, can't help myself. :) I'm a long-time Calibre user and I don't want to see it attain a false association that can have legal ramifications.

All that said, those plugins are seamless. :D

Christa wrote: "...Calibre doesn't strip DRM. Unaffiliated third-party plugins, only installable by the end user and never packaged with nor endorsed by the Calibre developers, are available that do this...."

True. Readers have to strip the DRM or install plugin to do for them. And, if book was purchased with copyright permissions that included DRM and other usage notes it is considered a copyright violation (with a grey area when only done for archival/backup purposes to protect against loss of device or loss of access to). You don't buy the copyright, just the media by agreeing to copyright permissions.

Buying thru the "big boys" does get you cloud protections/backup and likely ability to read on apps and multiple permitted devices.

D.C. wrote: "... You own copyright of your own work. There's no requirement for publication or registry..."

Absolutely true. Even without publishing or even finishing your book, you own the copyright.

re: returns
It happens. I had two returns in 2.5 years, so... only if you get a lot of returns or if a whole series is bought and returned, I wouldn't worry.

re: pirated
People who read pirated books are not likely to buy books, so it's not as if you lost a sale. Some of my books are pirated. I had one person who received a pirated book and was disappointed to get a bunch of viruses too, and they send me an email, because they happened to like the book, but the file was corrupted. When they realized that my books don't actually cost that much, they bought my books and are now loyal fans.

re: DRM
DRM does nothing to stop piracy but it annoys the hell out of your readers, because they won't be able to transfer the files they bought from one portable device to the other. My advice, forget about DRM until something comes along that annoys the pirates and not the readers.

Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "re: returns
It happens. I had two returns in 2.5 years, so... only if you get a lot of returns or if a whole series is bought and returned, I wouldn't worry.

re: pirated
People who read pirated bo..."

Thanks for this, Martin V. Your comment about the reader contacting you mirrors something that happened to me and that was how I found the pirated edition of "Tallis' Third Tune." This reader was surprised by how low-cost e-books can be. And yes, I now have one more loyal follower.

Maho wrote: "Hello, Savitri, it's cool to find another spanish author in here (I am too, I could even reply you in spanish but since this is an english forum I'll keep it this way), I haven't had that refund pr..."

Hi Maho, thanks for answering. The problem is that being a digital product, I imagine the person who turns back a book can quite well to do this to have a free copy. When it happened to me, I complain to Amazon and received a very kind answer, but they not even know why a book is given back. It is quite unpleasant for an author. I know that in another digital platform the buyer has only 30 minutes of time to return a book, which seems to me more logical, because in that time you can know if it was a mistake, or if the book if badly presented, but seven days is for me a joke (for authors, not for people without ethics)

Un saludo cordial

Savitri wrote: "I complain to Amazon and received a very kind answer, but they not even know why a book is given back. "

That's not correct - when you return an e-book Amazon has a drop down menu and you have to select a reason why you are you returning it. I've returned a book twice, once I accidentally one-clicked when I meant to put it in my wishlist and I returned it within seconds of realising my mistake (so it didn't even hit my device). The other book I returned had such appalling formatting it was unreadable. I believe if there is a consistent reason among returns like formatting or typos, Amazon will ask you to correct the file and upload it again.

I've also returned books, but because I didn't order them. This happened three times in two weeks. Books arrived on my Kindle that I hadn't ordered.

However, the main topic of this thread; If someone purchases the book, then returns it minutes later it could well be because they're pirating it. This is very distressing for authors who find their books on pirate sites. Amazon should keep a watch on serial returnees

Amazon does keep track of serial returnees. My brother would buy books and return them. After about the 5th book in one month, Amazon said that they had temporarily blocked his account for returning books and looked into the matter. They found that most of the books he was returning were fully read. They told him that he could no longer return books that he had read fully for a 6 month probation period.

Hannah, that is superb news! And I hope you made your brother stand in the corner with a dunce's hat on his head

He's just 14 years old, so he just got grounded. lol