SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

I just read this article on Slate:

https://www.tor.com/2021/10/28/mark-a...

about how you don't have to finish every book you start. This is something I have problems following - maybe it's because I was part of the you finish everything on your plate generations?

This snippet was interesting: “In 2018, some 1.6 million books were reportedly self-published—all this on top of the tens of thousands released by traditional publishing houses.”

and a link to Scalzi's comment on not finishing his books:

https://twitter.com/scalzi/status/144...

and I like this linked -article How many books can you finish in the rest of your lifetime article and charts:

https://www.bookbub.com/blog/news-stu...

Hooray! My TBR pile is not too big after all.

I've been thinking about starting this thread, but I'm still so stuck in camp no DNFs that I decided I better not. I want to learn to DNF, but I also don't want to, because I know I can't do it :D I saw that Tor article when it was in the newletter, and started reading it, but I DNFed it because there is nothing anyone can say to convince me that I'm allowed to DNF books!

However, I firmly believe that everyone else should DNF a book if they're not feeling it!

(DNF = did not finish)

Well that books remaining chart is... depressing. I better get busy!

Choosing to DNF a book is similar to the concept of considering the opportunity cost of a decision. Is finishing the book that is not working as well as you hoped a better option than starting the next book on the list/stack? If not, then DNF and move on. The time already invested in the book is a sunk cost and should make no difference to the decision.

Another question I ask is why it matters if I finish the book. Who am I trying to please or impress? Even for the monthly book club picks, I only try to give the books a fair chance, and I will DNF them if they are really not working for me.

This week, I read about half of The Demolished Man, and I saw why it was seen as deserving of the Hugo award. Still, its merits were not enough to make me want to read through to the end, and I am now reading something that is giving me more joy.

Becky wrote: Well that books remaining chart is... depressing.

You think? I need an extra column in there, headed 'men who only have time to read in the evening and usually fall asleep after reading two pages.'

Anna wrote: there is nothing anyone can say to convince me that I'm allowed to DNF books!

However, I firmly believe that everyone else should DNF a book if they're not feeling it!

You need a crash course in utilitarian philosophy: 'everybody to count for one, nobody for more than one'. Note that 'everybody'; it means you have exactly the same rights as everyone else.

My take on this is that, by publishing the book, the publisher and author together contracted to give me a good reading experience, and if they didn't, it's them that are in breach of that contract, not me. So I don't have to finish any book I don't like.

I;ll usually put the book in my Currently reading pile and do a chapter every now and then especially if it's for a challenge. Those, this and last year were

The Traitor Baru Cormorant
Thus Spake Zarathustra A book for all and none - I guess I was part of the none
Harrow the Ninth - Gideon the Ninth was OK, but I had trouble finishing the sequel
The Three-Body Problem

and some others that I've forgotten

As I've gotten older, I find that I have less patience for book slop. I didn't start dnf-ing until within the last decade.

Becky wrote: "Well that books remaining chart is... depressing. I better get busy!"

I agree! Based on their estimate I should be dead in ten years, lol. Glad my annual average is higher than their estimate.

As for DNF…. I try to finish what I choose to read but not every book is for everyone. Over the years I have expanded the genres I choose books from but there are some books I just can not get into.

Also this probably doesn’t account for rereading books you love… which could be time for new books but sometimes you have to reread those favorites.

Chris wrote: "Becky wrote: Well that books remaining chart is... depressing.

You think? I need an extra column in there, headed 'men who only have time to read in the evening and usually fall asleep after read..."

Well heck, if we're adding our own columns, I need one for "people who zonk out after two pages of reading, so primarily listen to audio at 2x speed". LOL

I started not dnf'ing when I came back to SFF reading by joining this group, because there was so much I had to catch up with and get a broad overview over all the sub genres that are there nowadays. But meanwhile I've read so much, got a pretty good overview of the genres and most importantly know what I like and what I don't care for. So DNF is now mercilessly done.

I have zero compunctions DNFing books. I don't really have any hard or fast rules about what I'll read, genre-wise, so if a book stops interesting me after I've started it, then I'll just stop reading it. Depending on WHY it stopped interesting me, I may chuck it back in the line and come back to it, or I may count it as "read", review it with why I didn't finish, and never look back.

Life is too short to force myself through books that aren't doing anything for me. As evidenced by the apparent 53 books I have left before I kick it.

Will absolutely drop a book, if it doesn't seem worth my time. But I'm also constantly aware it might just not be the right time for any particular book, so I leave open to possibly visiting it at a more suitable time (which is why there are currently 50 books on my 'current reads' list that I've nibbled at, but left lying for one reason or another - including books you're not necessarily meant to read in one go, like dictionaries, or short story collections*). Still, keeping in mind how it can be especially educational to try and read against one's 'tastes' - broaden the horizon. What ever feels constructive use of time, I suppose.

*(Perhaps it'd be more accurate to talk about leaving a narrative unfinished, rather than a book?)

This demonstration from Carl Sagan is always a good reminder about book pickiness - which boils down to the exactly same notion of 'life is too short':
https://youtu.be/_JTN7YnM72A?t=50

I have a problem actively choosing to DNF. A lot of the time when I end up DNFing it's just because I'm not in the mood and end up picking up something else and not going back. Right now I'm fighting like three different ones I just don't have any desire to pick back up again. None of them are even particularly bad- I just want to read other stuff.

Just a curious little side note here -- nothing to do with whether you should or should not finish a book. If you are a subscriber to Kindle Unlimited and you take a book on KU, Amazon tracks your reading. If you are reading a book on a notepad or Kindle reader, then pick up your phone and go to the same book with the Kindle app, it will automatically go to the last page you read on the other device.

For Kindle Unlimited, Amazon tracks the pages you read for another reason: that's how the author and publisher get paid. If you read twenty pages of the book via KU, then decide you don't like it, the author/ publisher will still get paid for those twenty pages.

Of course, the more you read, the more they get paid -- so it's kind of like you are reviewing the book. How much you read is a measure of how much you think the book is worth. :-)

Jemppu wrote: "Still, keeping in mind how it can be especially educational to try and read against one's 'tastes' - broaden the horizon. What ever feels constructive use of time, I suppose."

I agree with this. I've been approaching this topic with fiction in mind. Nonfiction books or personal betterment/education/resource kind of books I'll generally stick with unless there's something particularly egregious or wrong/incorrect about them.

I love when fiction books include representation or realistic socio-political themes, etc, but for me, I don't look to fiction for any educational value. I read nonfiction for that. So to me, that's not enough of a reason to push through. And if there's something that doesn't work for me, in the writing or plotting or whatever, I'll DNF it.

Jemppu wrote: "Will absolutely drop a book, if it doesn't seem worth my time. But I'm also constantly aware it might just not be the right time for any particular book, so I leave open to possibly visiting it at ..."

This is how I am as well. I am happy to DNF, but I also have 50 books on my paused shelf that I do hope to get back to someday.

I don’t DNF so much as “start a book and then not get back to it no matter how much I was loving it”. There are so many new, shiny books that I get and my attention gets taken away from the last one onto the next one. Every now and then I go back to my Currently Reading list on Goodreads and pick one to finish. I usually put them on Goodreads as currently reading to keep track of them. Not all of them get on there though.

I’ve come back to the Farm by myself for 6 weeks so I’m intending on spending more time reading. Might actually finish something. I’ve started around 30 this year but have only got around to finishing 9. They’re not all on GR though.

Hubby refuses to DNF anything and usually slogs through every book he starts no matter how crappy it is. He has only DNFd two books that I can remember. Assassin’s Apprentice by Robin Hobb and A is for Alibi by Sue Grafton. I quite liked both of those but he positively hated them. Oh well. He’s currently “persisting” with Ready Player Two. I told him to keep going because the second half gets better. The first half is pretty crappy.

John wrote: "Just a curious little side note here -- nothing to do with whether you should or should not finish a book. If you are a subscriber to Kindle Unlimited and you take a book on KU, Amazon tracks your ..."

And that is why some self-published authors tried to game the system by having the book go to the last page so all the pages are counted.. I've definitely run across the table of contents being at the end of the book method

Sarah wrote: "I have a problem actively choosing to DNF. A lot of the time when I end up DNFing it's just because I'm not in the mood and end up picking up something else and not going back. Right now I'm fighti..."

In those cases, Sarah, I try it a couple of different times, but no more than three. If it sucks by then to me, chances are that it always will. That's when I give up. I'm a mood reader, and I know that sometimes it's me and not the book. After multiple attempts I move on.

I often set up a limit of reading the first 40 pages to decide if I want to finish a book or not. I often end up reading 100 pages or more but I'll set it aside or skip to the end if is too tiresome to read. If I skip I usually don't rate or review the book unless something made me not to like the book at all.

I don't like dnf, but i will do it. i count a book read if it's more than 50% done, so that helps. I'm also comfortable getting less than 5% in and having the realization this book isn't for me, and just removing it entirely from my shelf and my life. I can also skim, but that's never a good sign. it's the 5-50 part and then when I'm lied to and get to 51% and then decide I don't like it.

I am really very unlikely to DNF any book I’ve started (getting distracted from finishing a book is something else entirely and I *will * finish those!) not because I can’t (I think I’m past that) but because I’m very unlikely to read anything that hasn’t come highly recommended by multiple people, hasn’t haunted my “Want to Read” list for quite a while and/or isn’t something I thought enough of that I already bought it. Especially if it’s an actual dead-tree book. I must say I’ve found I had excellent taste when I buying when I choose from my physical TBR. Ebooks may turn out to be different, because I got a lot of them for free or next to.

CBRetriever wrote: "And that is why some self-published authors tried to game the system by having the book go to the last page so all the pages are counted.. I've definitely run across the table of contents being at the end of the book method"

Wow! That's a new one on me. Of course, I haven't looked at many actually self-published. Most of the reputable Indie publishers put a plug for another book at the end, but the table of contents is in the front.

John, come on friend. you know you gotta remove that parenthesis.

I even ran across one that had the cover at the back plus all the front matter

Allison wrote: "John, come on friend. you know you gotta remove that parenthesis."
(Sigh)... since you insist, fine. One reason I don't post very often any more.

I appreciate it.

Jemppu wrote: "...also constantly aware it might just not be the right time for any particular book, so I leave open to possibly visiting it at a more suitable time..."

I agree with this and find it to be the same with me and my reading. I find dropping a book and trying it again after some time has past is a good metric on if my experience had to do with the book or my mood at that time.

With respect to DNFing, I find that my reading starts to feel like school if I give the books all the power under the umbrella of "I have to finish this." (Book clubs are like the exemption as I feel a level of obligation to give it above my average best effort to complete the book.)

Why DNF when you can leave it indefinitely as a current read? Who says your current reads list cannot be as long as your TBR list?

To quote the Chronicler of the Nevernight Chronicle Series, "Too many books. Too few centuries."

Munachiso wrote: "Why DNF when you can leave it indefinitely as a current read? Who says your current reads list cannot be as long as your TBR list?"

Shudder.

I actually stopped marking books as currently reading because it stresses me out. Now I add them as currently reading 2 seconds before I mark them as read :D and then fix the start date if necessary.

When I look at someone's profile, to see if they've read a certain book for example, I always click on currently reading to get to the shelf search page, because *logically* that should be the shelf that has the least books on it and thus loads fastest. SOME PEOPLE have a million books on there, and it always makes me very uncomfortable :D

I have a GR friend like that, Anna. His currently reading shelf is 300+.

No.

yeah, when i get above 3 currently reading my physical stress level rises. like, "you see doctor, I'm not having a heart attack, i just have 5 simultaneous reads" level stress

The challenge also if that if I know I must finish a book, it adds extra pressure to starting it up in the first place.

And then I find myself super restricted to only comfortable genres.

Anna wrote: "Munachiso wrote: "Why DNF when you can leave it indefinitely as a current read? Who says your current reads list cannot be as long as your TBR list?"
Shudder.
I actually stopped marking books as ..."

@Anna: I wait til I make it to at least 100 pages before I will make it as currently reading, it stresses me out too lol. I also have that nagging feeling like Munachiso that I must finish every book I start. I still can't DNF a book, the most I'll do is skim til the end or listen at 1.5 speed on audio. I use to be worse, feeling I had to continue a series I started even if I didn't enjoy it, luckily I don't do that anymore. Too many books, too little time, I really want to straight out DNF books but I just can't bring myself to do it, maybe one day in the future. But in all honesty, it is just a handful of books I would want to DNF (this past year of reading, there were books I didn't like as much as others but only one that I wanted to give up on). There are definitely some that are just not the right time, so I'll keep them on my TBR and hopefully go back later.

Allison wrote: "yeah, when i get above 3 currently reading my physical stress level rises. like, "you see doctor, I'm not having a heart attack, i just have 5 simultaneous reads" level stress"

A possible solution to the current reads long list problem is to switch the book back to "Want to Read" although a part of you will still know that it is not a new book on your TBR list.

I actually only have a maximum of three on my Currently Reading shelf. I can't imagine having 300+. The stress and pressure would put me into an early grave!

Nicol wrote: "I still can't DNF a book, the most I'll do is skim til the end or listen at 1.5 speed on audio. I use to be worse, feeling I had to continue a series I started even if I didn't enjoy it, luckily I don't do that anymore. Too many books, too little time, I really want to straight out DNF books but I just can't bring myself to do it, maybe one day in the future."

I've also graduated out of finishing series. I still remember how hard it was for me at first, I had a DNFS shelf where I had all the first books in series I hadn't finished. Now I DNFS ruthlessly. I'm also hoping that one day in the future regular DNFs will be as easy :)

And yes, I've said it many times, but the 2-3x me the hell outta here audiobook strategy is the closest I come to DNF, and that I do without remorse. I have skim read a couple of eye-books, but it's pretty rare I'd start a book I'm not very interested in as an eye-read, so it's less frequent.

I've had as much as 7 max on my currently reading. I made a shelf called Later for books I've paused. These are mostly the Delphi Complete Works of X author where I've read some of the book collection but not all

I am relieved to realize I am not the only person who can't get myself to DNF. I KNOW that I SHOULD. Because time is short and there are so many amazing things to read. But I just CAN'T.

Maybe someday.

I have at least always been able to easily stop a series I don't like. No matter where I am in it. As long as I finish the individual book, I feel no obligation to pick up the next one unless I enjoy the one I just read.

Michelle wrote: "I have a GR friend like that, Anna. His currently reading shelf is 300+."

This would literally break my brain. I had The Autobiography of Malcolm X on my currently reading shelf for 6 months and it gave me a complex. I eventually had to just chuck it back on To Read so that I could function again.

I can't have more than a few books on there at a time. No hard number, but the key is MOVEMENT. If they are moving on and off, it's ok, but if they are there too long, I can't start new books and literally get struck in a rut.

Ha- I’m the opposite of some here- I like to add stuff to my currently reading shelf right away because I *think* it ups my commitment to finishing. Looking at my current currently reading shelf, I know this is just a mind game I like to play with myself. 😂

Sarah, you're trying to outsmart yourself, that's all!

Caillen wrote: "Three is about my limit. Five is way too anxiety inducing. "

but my currently reading books, I actually am currently reading. I often read several books at the same time. Right now it's

The Core on my traveling Kindle

These three I'm actively reading:

Spin = SF
A Sword from Red Ice = Fantasy
and
Fire Sale = Mystery

and this is my dip into from time to time book (history so it's slow going)

A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century

I guess I've always been a multi-tasker

I used to hate DNFing. Growing up I read so much that I had trouble finding things to read, so I think that may have been part of it. (I think I read nearly all the books in our house, including my mom's parenting books, haha)

When I was older and I had more access to libraries and could use the internet to find new books, I gave myself the freedom to DNF because there are so many books out there that I'll love and I don't want to spend my time on something I don't find worthwhile.

Sometimes I'll still finish books I may not like just to see what happens, or so I can discuss them, or because I think it's an important topic even if I'm not enjoying it.

In general I try to read three chapters before DNFing, but sometimes it's sooner if I can tell I won't like it.

Michelle wrote: "Sarah, you're trying to outsmart yourself, that's all!"

Haha- maybe someday I’ll manage!

I went and looked, I have 19 books that I am supposedly currently reading. In reality, I’m only really reading 4 (one print, one audio, one to my son, one to my husband). The rest on the list don’t really bother me, because they fall off the swipable list on the app. They are books that I interrupted for whatever reason and fully intend to get back to, are poetry anthologies that I am slowly working my way through and the same with some non-fiction. Occasionally I got through the list and purge any I’ve decided I’m really not going to get back to.

I want to clean up my currently reading by adding a shelf called something like "up next" but that will put more pressure on me because I'll have taken the time to organize it, so what's wrong with me that I can't take the time to read the darn things?

What I really want to use the currently reading shelf for is books with due dates. Books that I need to keep track of and read soonest. That was working fine until I got access to several more digital libraries and a consortium for paper books, and now it's just too much.

Dnf is easy. I'll try almost anything. If I don't care for it, well, there are certainly plenty of other choices out there. I do review every dnf, though, at least briefly, to explain to other potential readers why it didn't work for me, and might not for them. I don't, however, mark them as read or give them stars, even if I read almost all.

Cheryl wrote: "I want to clean up my currently reading by adding a shelf called something like "up next" but that will put more pressure on me because I'll have taken the time to organize it, so what's wrong with..."

I've tried this a couple times too, and it never works out for me. I just suck at meeting the commitments I set for myself so I generally end up never reading my "next" books next. LOL