Ersatz TLS discussion

Berkley wrote: "Could a book be written today that delivered the same gut-punch as something like The Spy Who Came in from the Cold did in its time (and I think for at least a decade or two afterwards - at least I felt it, reading it in the '70s) ? Or would we just shrug our shoulders and say, "What did you expect?"

I'm not sure... but it doesn't help if the book has no shades of grey. Even bad guys and gals in fiction should have their reasons, no matter how perverted... if they don't, and we're into pure psychopath territory, it's just not interesting (to me). Looking at some of the current wholly sociopathic politicians, who could be bothered to read a novel about them - as opposed to an exposé in the press?

scarletnoir wrote: "Berkley wrote: "Could a book be written today that delivered the same gut-punch as something like The Spy Who Came in from the Cold did in its time (and I think for at least a decade or two afterwa..."

i agree, a complicated character portrayal is worthwhile and reflects reality. Some of the best novels i have read have characters inhabiting shadow worlds of grey. Human nature is a capricious thing, influenced by circumstances, upbringing and inherited characteristics(some dormant for decades), nobody is simply bad or good, merely somewhere in between. I mean this on a personal and external level among the masses, not just the figures of history and infamy

scarletnoir wrote: "Berkley wrote: "Where do you think that happens with Le Carré?"

I can't claim to have read all the early ones, but after finding 'The Tailor of Panama' rather dull, I really didn't care for 'The C..."

Funny that. I only got interested in le Carré after reading "The Constant Gardener" (spy novels not being "my thing").

Big Pharma is run by cynical capitalists! Who would have guessed it!
Do you mean we do not need to read books telling us about things we already know? If so, I find that a strange argument.

I know a fair deal about how religion, diverse ideologies, corruption, misogyny, racism, classism.... work. I know about the Magdalen laundries and Indian Partition, the Weimar Republic, post-war Germany, the Camorra and and and...

So why would I want to (as is often the case) read novels dealing with things I already know?
Or a novel, rather than non-fiction, dealing with something I am not familiar with, but interested in?

I quite enjoyed "The Night Manager". I take it you dislike James Bond and stuff like Indiana Jones for the same reasons ;-)

Georg wrote: "Big Pharma is run by cynical capitalists! Who would have guessed it!
Do you mean we do not need to read books telling us about things we already know? If so, I find that a strange argument."

It's surely more interesting to be told things we don't know - and I strongly dislike such 'black and white' characterisations such as those in the works I mentioned. We don't get any characterisations of the 'bad guys' - they're just BAAAAAD, end of... (early le Carré was either a lot better, or my memory has totally failed me).

But, that wasn't the only problem - I strongly dislike being bored, which I was by those books. At least James Bond and Indiana Jones are a bit of a laugh. (Again, humourlessness is a very strong turn-off for me, in books, movies, TV, life... you name it.)

(It is of course perfectly possible for a talented author to write about 'things we already know', and make it interesting by, for example, not preaching. A bit of character development also helps.)

I defy anyone to laugh at what happens in 'Constant gardener' or 'Night manager'. Excellent works if your aim is to end up on the happy pills, though! Besides, as I wrote already - the plot of (the TV version) of the Night manager was ludicrous beyond belief, so what you get is Bond ludicrousness without the fun bits. No, thanks.

scarletnoir wrote: Again, humourlessness is a very strong turn-off for me, in books, movies, TV, life... you name it.)

You love Dostojewsky. Would you say he has any sense of humour? (it is quite a while since I read him, so maybe I've forgotten the funny bits in Crime and Punishment).

What about Steinbeck? Nobody could accuse him of not having a sense of humour, rather the opposite, Yet you won't find it in The Grapes of Wrath, East of Eden or Of Mice and Men.

Are Alexandre Dumas' Three Musketeers better than his humourless Count of Monte Christo?

Hello, everyone. I don't have any free time time today, so I will put up a new thread either very late today, or, more likely, tomorrow. Sorry to keep you hanging around. Keep reading!

Anne wrote: "Hello, everyone. I don't have any free time time today, so I will put up a new thread either very late today, or, more likely, tomorrow. Sorry to keep you hanging around. Keep reading!"

Thanks Anne. I was hoping you might write something up about your findings whilst looking into ancient Greece. Did anything interesting come of it?

Georg wrote: "You love Dostojewsky. Would you say he has any sense of humour? (it is quite a while since I read him, so maybe I've forgotten the funny bits in Crime and Punishment).

What about Steinbeck? Nobody could accuse him of not having a sense of humour, rather the opposite, Yet you won't find it in The Grapes of Wrath, East of Eden or Of Mice and Men.

Are Alexandre Dumas' Three Musketeers better than his humourless Count of Monte Christo?"

The point about Dostoyevsky is that he does not paint his characters in simple black and white terms - how could we sympathise with Raskolnikov if he was a purely evil being? But we do, hence his greatness and brilliance. As for his sense of humour - you could try 'Bobok', which made me laugh.

Steinbeck - read the 'Grapes of Wrath', found it seriously over-rated, never read another.

I haven't read Dumas and would be loath to express a considered opinion based only on the film and TV adaptations, though I have enjoyed both those books when so adapted.

AB76 wrote: "Bill wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Caused chaos for Amazon as the drivers couldn't access their routes to deliver parcels!"

Ah, that explains the Amazon vans driving aimlessly around my neighborhood..."

And there was nothing to do in all those warehouses! Quite a pleasant change for them.

Anybody interested in "Berlin Jewish Salons in the Age of Napoleon"?
Here is an online event (English-language, free) that might be for you then:
https://www.einsteinforum.de/veransta...

These salons were places of "rich cultural life", as Wikipedia has it, and as many letters, other texts and works of art attest to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salon_(... (English)

A long list of notable names can be found here on this German-language web page: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literar...

Edit:
Registration is required for this (free) live event on Zoom: https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/regis...

You can also watch it later, without registering, via the "archive" website: https://www.einsteinforum.de/archiv/

Sorry for just passing through again, but I wanted to leave this here at least.

____________________________________________________

@ give and gpfr: Hope you will like Headlong, the two of you! Do keep us updated.

Robert wrote: "Fuzzywuzz wrote: "I've been sucked into the great vortex that is Crime Fiction/Thrillers from which I may never return.

Looking at what I've read this year (on my 41st now), it does seem to be mos..."

If anyone into mysteries/thrillers here is at a loss for the next read, logon to youtube and search for 'Otto Presents'. Otto Penzler who owns the https://www.mysteriousbookshop.com/ where you can sign up for their newsletter.

Right now I am on youtube listening to Otto talk about all his books. He is a hoot.

And if there is anyone out there looking for comic mysteries, Donald E. Westlake is your man - see Otto's 20 minutes about him on youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqyVq...

scarletnoir wrote: "Georg wrote: "You love Dostojewsky. Would you say he has any sense of humour? (it is quite a while since I read him, so maybe I've forgotten the funny bits in Crime and Punishment).

What about Ste..."

spot on about Raskalnikov!!!

My wife came across the phrase "millennial ennui" in quotation marks, as if it were a well-recognized phenomena, but I had never encountered it as far as I can recall.

I discovered that it's considered a genre by some readers and, according to this Goodreads list, I've actually read three examples of it.

MK wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Have to agree with MK, Fuzzywuzz and Georg on their choice of crime novelists, although I don't know Tony Hillerman.

I am on page 366 of Dan Jones's Powers and Thrones, a sweep..."

I have finished reading it now. Yes I like the wry comments he puts in his books, they are very readable and not a bit dry. I just wish I could remember all I have read!

scarletnoir wrote: "Lljones wrote: "Yep. Big Amazon Web Service outage, effecting GR, Abebooks, Alexa, Netflix............"

And Tinder!!!!!!!!!!!

(So they tell me... ;-)

Seriously, I could never envisage using tha..."


We'll believe you, cough, cough! 🤣

scarletnoir wrote: "Georg wrote: "You love Dostojewsky. Would you say he has any sense of humour? (it is quite a while since I read him, so maybe I've forgotten the funny bits in Crime and Punishment).

What about Ste..."

OK, you've decided to move the goalposts from humourlessness being a turn-off to you to black-and-white characters being a turn-off.

No problem.

I very much appreciate writers who are able to inspire their readers to somehow understand and therefore feel compassion for their designed villains. There are, in my experience, not many who can pull that off.

On the other hand I really can enjoy pure unadulterated villains. Looking at Gauss's bell shaped curve of normal distribution (and history) they do exist. At the opposite end there are the true goody-two-shoes. According to normal distribution they also exist. But who wants to read about them?

Re Steinbeck: I understand that "The Grapes of Wrath" is not everybody's cup of tea. Maybe you should give him another chance and read "Cannery Row". It is very funny. If you look beneath the surface there is more. But Steinbeck does not force you to look beneath the surface. It is all up to you.

Bill wrote: "My wife came across the phrase "millennial ennui" in quotation marks, as if it were a well-recognized phenomena, but I had never encountered it as far as I can recall.

I discovered that it's consi..."

I'll have a guess at the three you read:

Sad Janet
Hysteria
You too can have a body like mine

Georg wrote: "I'll have a guess at the three you read:

Sad Janet
Hysteria
You too can have a body like mine"

Actually, the 3 were:
Conversations with Friends (my time in the Sally Rooney barrel)
Real Life (a campus novel)
Writers & Lovers (a novel about a novelist)

I looked at the three you mentioned, and Sad Janet seems like something I might have picked up, though I note that in the Goodreads description, the heroine "loves the Smiths", which is the kind of pop-culture-derived characteristic often assigned to characters in these novels, something I suspect should be freighted with meaning for the reader but which is kind of a nondescript descriptor for me, since I have no idea of the music or what it may signify about its fans.