Reading the Detectives discussion

Welcome to our first group challenge of 2022, which is the classic locked room mystery by John Dickson Carr, The Hollow Man aka The Three Coffins, published in 1935 and the sixth in the Dr Gideon Fell series.

The most famous of all locked-room mysteries - a classic in the crime genre.

'The first deadly walking of the hollow man took place when the side streets of London were quiet with snow and the three coffins of the prophecy were filled at last...'

The murderer of Dr Grimauld walked through a locked door, shot his victim and vanished. He killed his second victim in the middle of an empty street, with watchers at each end, yet nobody saw him, and he left no footprints in the snow.

And so it is up to the irrepressible, larger-than-life Dr Gideon Fell to solve this most famous and taxing of locked-room mysteries.

This classic is the perfect start to our investion into the Detection Club. Happy reading this year everyone and please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

I was sure Rampole's (which I always see as Rumpole) wife would be right and the daughter would be involved. She was my least favorite character.

My, my, that solution: the paper costume, the mirror illusion, both brothers being shot then tearing their lungs through exertion! I can see why it's famous in the genre and JDC certainly has a labyrinthine mind to have come up with this.

I was a bit confused about the mirror up the chimney: didn't someone say at the start that the flue was so narrow they couldn't get their hands up there? So how did the mirror fit? I also didn't understand why the witnesses to the second murder didn't realise that it was Frey's voice shouting about the second bullet and why they thought it was an invisible killer?

I found the plot a bit confusing but the solution brilliant, with an amazing twist in terms of the timing and the culprits that I certainly didn't see coming!

However, I was somewhat irritated by Dr Fell's speech about locked room solutions in general, as I think it had potential spoilers for other books. Hopefully I will forget most of them before I get to the titles in question (if I ever do!), but there was one revelation that I fear I will remember. (I wasn't so worried about the giving away of magic tricks, as I forgot them right away and don't tend to watch magic anyway!)

Certainly an interesting chapter, all the same, and enjoyable to have Dr Fell breaking the fourth wall and declaring that they are all in a book, anyway. Apart from him, I didn't find any of the other characters very interesting and I kept mixing them all up, although that may be just me as I keep finding this at the moment.

Judy wrote: "...with an amazing twist in terms of the timing"

I found the clock a bit hard to swallow in that the two passers by and the policeman didn't notice it was 40 minutes out, that's quite a large slot of time at night, and the policeman was probably watching for his shift to end.

But agree, that was quite a solution!

I have finished this now. It was certainly a puzzle - plot focused rather than character. I'm glad I read it, but can't really say I was engrossed.

It was interesting that in the lecture chapter JDC talks about how the whole genre is improbable and so there's no point complaining - but I think some authors make the improbable seem perfectly acceptable within the world of the book.

For me, Agatha Christie generally does this in Poirot and Miss Marple (perhaps less so in the standalone thrillers) so I'm happy to go along with her and accept the macabre whereas it felt a bit preposterous in Hollow Man.

Still, glad I've read it.

Yes, agree with everything you say there, RC. Classic of the genre, but bit of a struggle!

I also wondered about the mirror in the flue, First, because I found it unlikely anyone could shove a large mirror into the fireplace and then maneuver up into the flue. Then, someone checked the flue and declared it small. It must have been a very incomplete check to not notice a mirror, presumably in a stand with legs.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I found the clock a bit hard to swallow in that the two passers by and the policeman didn't notice it was 40 minutes out..."

That's a good point - also odd that no one had a pocket watch! Also, was Grimaud wearing a papier mache mask when he went into the building? I think I got a bit confused at that point.

As you mentioned Christie, RC, she is another author where I sometimes find the outrageous plot twists hard to swallow (especially disguises!) I do agree that these amazing plot twists are part of the genre, and I try to suspend my disbelief, but it is sometimes difficult.

Judy wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "I found the clock a bit hard to swallow in that the two passers by and the policeman didn't notice it was 40 minutes out..."

That's a good point - also odd that no one had a p..."

I found Christie's one with the wife failing to recognise her ex-husband where a mirror was involved, highly implausible. The mirror in the chimney was probably the reason the flue was found to be very small.
I also didn't like the way Carr, through Dr Fell explained the locked-room mysteries, quoting authors and their books annoying.

Jill wrote: "The mirror in the chimney was probably the reason the flue was found to be very small...."

Ooh, good point - this didn't strike me.

I enjoyed this on the whole, it was quite improbable at times but I liked the way it combined the two elements - the puzzle with the timetables and people popping in and out of the house and the flat, and alongside that the Gothic bit with people being buried alive and illusionists making threats.

I do agree that the writing was rather clunky and repetitive at times, especially about Fell - lumbered/lumbering came up 12 times and wheezed/wheezing 16 times! From the Martin Edwards book, it appears Fell was a caricature of GK Chesterton, but I still feel Carr laboured the joke a bit!

It was 3.5* for me, but I rounded up as I enjoyed it overall.

What did anyone think about the "false face" as I think it was described - was the killer wearing a mask?

I liked that the victim was ultimately the killer, as he was a detestable man, but the solution really relied too heavily on coincidences and perfect timing to be able to be pulled off. Given the frenetic nature of Grimaud needing to change his plans at that last minute, how did he have time to communicate to his confederate what her role needed to be? She seemed to know just what she had to do without being told. This would have been more plausible had she been his assistant in a magical act they had perfected together, and then twisted around for their sinister ends, but it doesn't really work otherwise. And if they both assumed false identities, why couldn't she have been his wife rather than his housekeeper? That seemed cruel and unnecessary.

I enjoyed this one. I had no clue what had happened but was swept up in trying to figure out the puzzle. It moved at a rapid pace and kept me involved -attributes I value in a mystery.

Judy, I enjoyed O'Rourke's revelation of magicians' secrets although I thought that was against the magician code of ethics. Finding out how a trick was done might be disappointing as he claimed since the wonder and mystery is removed and only simple explanation remains. Yet, it is the stripping away of the unknown and the logical explanation of events that gives a detective story a satisfying ending.

I also enjoyed the discussion of other authors although I agree there certainly were spoilers for the novels. . I found myself detouring into wikipedia to learn more about the authors. Anna Katherine Green especially intrigued me. I had never heard of her.

Chris, good to hear you enjoyed it. You've just reminded me, I've been meaning to read something by Anna Katherine Green for ages, but haven't got to her yet.

Tara wrote: "I liked that the victim was ultimately the killer, as he was a detestable man, but the solution really relied too heavily on coincidences and perfect timing to be able to be pulled off. ..."

I didn't really manage to follow the timings as it got a bit complicated, but certainly sounded as if it was pretty tight for time! I enjoyed the cleverness of the solution even though I slightly struggled to get my head round it.

Tara wrote: "I liked that the victim was ultimately the killer, as he was a detestable man, but the solution really relied too heavily on coincidences and perfect timing to be able to be pulled off. Given the f..."

I can accept the actual solution, because the puzzles about the two killings both came by accident - because the victims survived long enough to remove themselves from the crime scene, and the unplanned witnesses were misled about the time by chance.

But I'm very dubious about the workability of Grimaud's plan before it all went wrong. As you say, perfect timing, and relying on people seeing just what you want them to see, is one thing when it's an act on stage, another when the stakes are so much higher.

I finally finished; I quite enjoyed reading this--the creepy atmosphere he created with the graves and Transylvanian elements (which especially works in the snowy surrounds), the illusions and the completely unexpected solution at the end.

Some of the details did confuse me, like the mask and the mirror (incidentally, interesting that the mirror cause two deaths or one death and one near death)

The locked room lecture too, I quite enjoyed--I was trying to think back to the locked room mysteries I have read like Envious Casca and work out in which category the solution fell. Also interesting to see the breaking of the fourth wall (an expression I only recentlt learnt) with Fell acknowledging he is part of a detective story.

Lady Clementina wrote: "I finally finished; I quite enjoyed reading this--the creepy atmosphere he created with the graves and Transylvanian elements (which especially works in the snowy surrounds), the illusions and the ..."

I was especially creeped out by all of the references to coffins, and people coming out of and going back in them.

Me too! That’s why I just rushed myself through the book, didn’t want to have to entertain the scary options for too long!

I finished this a few days ago, and liked it overall. Initially, there were a lot of characters to keep track of and sometimes my eyes glaze over in the analysis of locked room mysteries, but liked the atmospheric quality of Carr's writing.

I did have trouble with the idea of someone wearing a mask just walking around freely without anyone stopping them but maybe that was/is more common with Guy Fawkes than anything that I am familiar with in the US. People in masks tend to creep me out!

Finally, another detail that stuck out to me was that Carr used the name Cagliostro for a street. I was perplexed why he would use an Italian name with -gli- in it because it is usually mispronounced. Upon searching the internet I found that he took that name from an 18th century magician who evidently was quite famous. I appreciate it when authors are that thorough with their details.