Historical Romance Book Club discussion

Jan I think my spoiler at chapter 20 is very similar to what you are saying.

Jan wrote: "Sandra I started to read your comment but it strays into spoiler territory and I'm only about half way through the book. Can you please use spoiler tags? Thanks, Jan."

I´m sorry, Jan, in the phone I can´t use tags, see if it´s ok now, please?

Leena wrote: "hi, has anyone read Angeline Fortin. She's written historicals with Scots.
1.A Laird to Hold.
2. A Scot to Remember
3. A Question for the Ages
4. A Good Scot is Hard to find
5. A Scot Worth Havin..."

Leena, no, I haven´t read. Do you advice this serie?

Parts I´ve love in the story, maybe it's silly, they are only details but things like this make my day:

Chapter 5:
(view spoiler)[“Why do you think he’s a Highlander?”
Catriona’s smile was a little crooked. “They have a certain look about them when they enter a room full of Englishmen. A sharp glance in their eyes, like a broadsword at the ready to be drawn—You beat us at Culloden, it says, but our spirit remains unbroken.”. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 23
(view spoiler)[“Why did you collect those?” he finally asked, and nodded at a pile of unremarkable gray beach pebbles rattling on the polished wood.
She looked up, vaguely confused, as though he had pulled her from the depths of some meandering thoughts. “Those?” she said. “So that they wouldn’t feel left out.”
His brows pulled together. “They are … stones.”
She gave an apologetic shrug. “Yes, but I don’t think anyone ever picks them.” (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 24: How cute is that??? :)
(view spoiler)[She turned to Lucian in time to see a flash of oh drat pass behind his eyes. “This,” she said, “is Wuthering Heights.”
“Aye.”
“Something on peat, you said!”
He shifted beneath her. “There’s lots of mentioning of the moors in it.” (hide spoiler)]

Jan wrote: "Merry Jewelhound wrote: "Through chapter 16 [spoilers removed]"

I'm up to Chapter 19. I'm going back to read the spoiler comments of where I'm up to. Merry, I mostly agree with your Chapter 16 spo..."

Merry, don´t give up!!!! ;)

BAD, this was just BAD. I will hop in on the discussion as soon as I've regained my senses. Meanwhile, a link to my review -

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Merry Jewelhound wrote: "Up to chapter 9. I will say I read the previous 2 books and liked them a lot. But for the life of me can't remember them[spoilers removed]"

Agreed. Lucian was interesting, the other idiot, not so much, to put it mildly.

Merry Jewelhound wrote: "Through chapter 16 [spoilers removed]"

Thank you. Really, I am glad I am not the only one who was uncaring of this couple.

Completed book thoughts (view spoiler)[ I just think the book was too long and it lost its focus as a romance with a theme. I think it was trying to tick too many boxes. (hide spoiler)]

Darbella wrote: "Merry and Nilambari, I put this author on my not my cup of tea list after her first book. I can only imagine my reaction to this one. LOL"

Hehehe! Which one did you suffer through?

Merry Jewelhound wrote: "Completed book thoughts [spoilers removed]"

Absolutey. Amen.

Sandra wrote: "Leena wrote: "hi, has anyone read Angeline Fortin. She's written historicals with Scots.
1.A Laird to Hold.
2. A Scot to Remember
3. A Question for the Ages
4. A Good Scot is Hard to find
5. A Sc..."

Sandra i just came across this on epub and was curious if anyone else had read her bks. The synopsis as usual sound great

Sandra wrote: "I´m sorry, Jan, in the phone I can´t use tags, see if it´s ok now, please? "

Yes, fixed. Thank you Sandra :)

Darbella wrote: "Lady N, I read Bringing Down the Duke. Seemed modern, preachy, and parts were boring to me."

Yes I had a few issues with that one too. I did like parts of it, but yes, modern and preachy.

I didn't particularly like Book 2 either (can't remember the name at the moment!). I found it preachy as well and the heroine seemed so bitter to me. I also didn't like the way that the (view spoiler)[ almost only gay man in the book was a villain. (hide spoiler)]

I'm still on the fence with this one. Into Chap 20 now and it's starting to pick up a little bit. Fingers crossed it gets better :) The comments by people who loved it are encouraging me to read on, although I have a paper-based book (from the library) and it always takes me longer to read them. They're not handily backlit like my kindle ;)

I'm enjoying the discussion here and everyone's comments. I think it was a good choice for a BOTM.

Merry Jewelhound wrote: "Completed book thoughts [spoilers removed]"

100% agree with this.

My overall feeling was that my main sticking point was Hattie. Going to have to skim back through this book to see if I can better pinpoint specifics, but basically I felt Hattie was underdeveloped and that by the end of the book she hadn't earned the amount of growth she was given. It felt like what she had become had not been due to something that came from within (internal change) but rather happened because the author slapped it on to her (external). I do believe the author was trying to demonstrate internal change, but I never felt convinced by it. I have no idea under what conditions I can suspend disbelief b/c my ability to do so seems to vary from author to author and book to book, but I simply could not suspend my disbelief about Hattie's journey. To me, it became so over the top that she felt like a total Mary Sue and I was annoyed.

I had a difficult time rating this book, and was probably more generous b/c I have liked the author's other 2 books and there were things in this book I did like.

Cath I think you put your finger on my problem with Hattie. I plan to read the authors next book as I have other authors that I enjoy some books more than others.

Darbella wrote: "Jan, Wow, chapter 20 and it is starting to pick up? Zoinks!"

Ha ha. Not as bad as it sounds, Darbella. I did like the first part of the book, but then it flattened out for a while. When I say picking up in Chapter 20, I didn't mean since the beginning of the book LOL.

i started this one yesterday. I am just reading chapter 16. I am disliking Hattie immensely...she is s terrible snob, pretentious, self absorbed, very immature and naive. She has this high moral ground about womens place in society but has no insight into the everyday man/woman. Insufferable!!

I have read book 1 and 2, but like others have a difficult time remembering much about them. I so seem to recall finding them somewhat irritating.

Fingers crossed she will grow up soon

Welp I finished and overall feel disappointed :( I was going for three stars because some sections weren't bad, but the ending was disappointing and I dropped down to 2, maybe 2.5 stars.

I think the author tried to do too much in this book. It was too long, preachy (preaching to the converted!) and the romance wasn't strong enough. I didn't particularly like Hattie and some of her silly choices either. (view spoiler)[ I hated the ending where she suddenly took off to France. Ridiculous! It felt like a waste of page space, and I just skimmed the last section of the book, because I just honestly didn't care about their HEA anymore. (hide spoiler)]

I've gone back and read some of the comments in this thread. It was an interesting book for BOTM and I've been enjoying the discussion. But for me this book is more women's fiction rather than romance. Oh well, at least I borrowed it from the library, so it didn't cost me anything ;)

Petra wrote: "I'm done with this book. The cover is pretty but what a shame that this book represents the romance genre to outsiders."

Yes, this!

Jan wrote: "Welp I finished and overall feel disappointed :( I was going for three stars because some sections weren't bad, but the ending was disappointing and I dropped down to 2, maybe 2.5 stars.

I think ..."

I totally agree about it being women's fiction. I think she was preaching to the choir (and I do mean preachy). I also understand if you enjoyed the book as I have had that happen where I love a book, and most don't. I agree it was a good choice and a fun discussion for BOM

Jan wrote: "Welp I finished and overall feel disappointed :( I was going for three stars because some sections weren't bad, but the ending was disappointing and I dropped down to 2, maybe 2.5 stars.

I think ..."

I definitely agree with you about the ending, I didn't like it either. (view spoiler)[ it was really jarring to have her suddenly go to France for six months right at the end of the book, it threw off the pacing and made it seem like the author was trying to hurriedly finish off her character development off page (view spoiler)[. (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

Jan wrote: "Welp I finished and overall feel disappointed :( I was going for three stars because some sections weren't bad, but the ending was disappointing and I dropped down to 2, maybe 2.5 stars.

I think ..."

You have a great point about it seeming more like women's fiction. This book felt like Dunmore wasn't comfortable with the genre of romance and wanted to write something else. The romance between Hattie and Lucien wasn't at the forefront when it should've been, and sometimes felt more like a subplot.

Keely I totally agree with you. I also read historical mystery, and the romance is often secondary.

Yes, maybe you're right in your critics about the kind of book this is. For instance, in Portugal Historical Romance it's a book with a big focus on the History, that's what makes it "Historical" and "Romance" as a kind of book (not a love trope). I was kind of amazed when I start reading books like the ones we explore in the group, because they have very little to do with the ones I was used to read as HR. I think, maybe, the genre is more vast than just this kind with a great focus on romance and love.

Maybe I'm just babbling and this is just how I picture HR but I think maybe it's a question of nomenclature and maybe this is why I like books like this with a good focus on the historical part.

How do you catalogue books from Philippa Gregory or Juliette Benzoni for instance?

Sandra, I looked up Gregory and the few books I scanned seemed to be about actual woman. Then she writes about how she imagines their lives would be. I think of those as Historical.
To me a HR would be a made-up couple that I build a world around using people and ideas of the time as part of the world. Then the plot and story are about their romance.
Others may think differently.

I has investigating and come up with this:

"The terms "romance novel" and "historical romance" are ambiguous, because the word "romance", and the associated word "romantic", have a number of different meanings. In particular, on the one hand there is the mass-market genre of "fiction dealing with love", harlequin romance,[2] and on the other hand, "a romance" can also be defined as "a fictitious narrative in prose or verse; the interest of which turns upon marvelous and uncommon incidents".[3] However, many romances, including the historical romances of Walter Scott,[4] are also frequently called novels, and Scott describes romance as a "kindred term".[5] To add to the confusion literary fiction romances, for example Emily Brontë's Wuthering Heights, often have a strong love story interest. Other European languages do not distinguish between romance and novel: "a novel is le roman, der Roman, il romanzo."[6]"

"Historical romance (also historical novel) is a broad category of fiction in which the plot takes place in a setting located in the past. Walter Scott helped popularize this genre in the early 19th-century, with works such as Rob Roy and Ivanhoe.[1] Literary fiction historical romances continue to be published, and a notable recent example is Wolf Hall (2009), a multi-award-winning novel by English historical novelist Hilary Mantel. It is also a genre of mass-market fiction, which is related to the broader romantic love genre."

I guess it is one of those you know it when you see it lol

Merry, yes, Gregory as a serie about actual Princesses, I don't remember if all her books are like that, but Benzoni writes about fictional characters, usually a woman in a historical environment, surrounded of historical figures. I love her books! They also have romance and the story works around the couple but not only about the couple, usual there is some mischief plot that works to separate the couple, as usual... ;)

Keely wrote: "I definitely agree with you about the ending, I didn't like it either. (view spoiler)
You have a great point about it seeming more like women's fiction. This book felt like Dunmore wasn't comfortable with the genre of romance and wanted to write something else. The romance between Hattie and Lucien wasn't at the forefront when it should've been, and sometimes felt more like a subplot."

I agree with your spoiler Keely, also with your other comments. Well said.

@Sandra, interesting comments about genres. I may have read Juliette Benzoni and Philippa Gregory a few years ago, but can't really remember their style. But for me, the genres of romance and historical romance are pretty clear. The story needs to focus around the key couple and the development of their romance, with other aspects of the story taking second place. There also needs to be a satisfying HEA.

Portrait of a Scotsman for me didn't really feel like a romance because: a) not enough romance for large parts of the book b) too much extra historical detail and storyline that detracted from the central love story c) the HEA was oddly done and not satisfying.

If I had gone in expecting a historical fiction or women's fiction read with a side serving of romance, I may have enjoyed the book more. That's not my fav type of read though. I do love my full on romance books.

What an interesting discussion. I have grown up on Benzoni books and while there is romance in them and even romance is the main driving point of the story, it is mostly about a woman and her adventures in life.
Gregory's books are historical fiction in my opinion because they present real historical figures and the main protagonists are real people from history. There is romance in it but the main driving point seems to be a political drama with romance in it.

I don't think this book was trying to be a different genre. An author can bring as many women's issues into the book as they like or as many social issues BUT there should be a pertinent plot to it, or I need to be more dramatically invested in Hattie to be interested in her taking pictures of poor people.
Also if miners are going to play such a big role in a book, they should not be plain and soppy.

What I found annoying was the author's commitment to look at issues of poverty, exploitation disenfranchisement, and even women abuse as issues that we are over and done with and portray her heroines as the ones fixing them with silly bandaids (like taking pictures of miners). This kind of reductionism of serious issues that's not only a hisotrical issue but still persists to today is why I found Dunmore's way of writing preachy.


Now I can see that Dunmore has a way with words. She is almost lyrical in her descriptions. She brought up really good arguments about social issues between Hattie and Lucien and her sex scenes are fine and I love Lucien for missing his tooth but there wasn't really an interesting relationship development in their story and other issues took precedence.

I can see your point, sometimes I think some of the books HR I read they are ONLY about the love story, you can put the action in what ever period of time, because they don´t have a historical backgroud strong, and in that books I have a serious problem in characterized them as a HR, I think that´s why I prefer books with a strong enfase in the historical part as well as the romantic part.

So, I was investigating because I don´t want to induce you in error and I think the genre in Portugal (and maybe in Europe) is more broad and in the "Historical Romance" are included all books with a historical backgroud, sometimes they don´t even have love in it ;) in this category we have authors like Julliete Benzoni, Gregory, Ken Follet and Humberto Eco. Authors like Julia Quinn and what we, in the group anf for you, call HR in Portugal is "romantic literature" or only "romance" I think it´s not very well categorized because the historical part should have some meaning, at least as a subgenre, but what do I know ;)

How would you characterize books we read in buddy reading like The Sometime Bride or The Venetian Mask?

Really enjoying the discussion and hearing different viewpoints about the book.

I like when authors choose to ground HR in the political and cultural context of the time b/c for me it extends the feeling of history, and that is something I did enjoy in Dunmore's two earlier HRs.

However, given that Dunmore clearly wants to incorporate feminist elements in this series, I think the problem for me was that I found Hattie's development as a feminist lacking and unconvincing. The heroines of the two previous HRs were already characterized by their interest in feminist/intellectual pursuits, so Dunmore didn't need to really develop that aspect of their characters, and focused more on character development that came about b/c of their romantic relationships. But as I remember, in the first two books, while Hattie was a good friend to both heroines, and supportive of their activities, she was mostly interested in fashion etc. Kind of a sweet lightweight. IMO Dunmore tried to develop Hattie's feminist leanings and it came at the expense of the romantic relationship, and so as HR this just didn't work for me.

Basically, IMO this was the one HR so far where Dunmore had to take a character and develop her into a feminist and it didn't work; in contrast she didn't have to develop the previous heroines in that direction 'cause they were already there.

To me, this was more about Hattie's journey than it was about the relationship. So I agree: more like historical fiction.

However if I were going to read HF about a woman's journey from sweet lightweight to ardent feminist, I'd want it to be much richer, more nuanced, and with more complexity with regard to secondary characters and situations. I agree w/ the above comment about the reductionist feel, for instance. For me, as a work of HF this book had too much hand-waving by the author and I probably would have DNF'd it.

Totally agree!! I think I've written in my review it seems Hattie has there only for "the foods and drink". Maybe Dunmore tried to much to give her a strong feminist background but the she has to much self absorbed. The end and all that France journey felt more like a child's tantrum than a self journey to know herself and the end looked like she run out of paper so let's finish this...

Nevertheless, this book was my least favourite of the serie but still a very good historical romance, by my standards ;). Loved the historical background and the story itself, sadly Hattie has the least interesting thing from the book. I'm looking forward for Catriona's story I hope Dunmore gives us another great book to everyone standards! ;)

Sandra wrote: "I'm looking forward for Catriona's story I hope Dunmore gives us another great book to everyone standards! ;)"

Yes I keep hoping with each book that I'll like the next one better. Sadly I disliked the bitter heroine in Book 2 and I felt disappointed by Hattie in this book :( I prefer HRs with a more sympathetic lead female character. I might wait till the library gets the next book once it's out rather than rushing to buy.

I was never able to obtain this book from the library. There is still a long line. I've been enjoying reading your discussions though.