Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

I am proofreading and copy editing my first book, hoping to have it ready for publishing in around 7 weeks time.

This is a chore, but I have knocked close to 2 thousand words off my 4K total, mostly by removing fluff.

However, I have ended up rewriting some sentences dozens of times. Now and then it's only the word order I change. Sometimes I get stuck on a word I don't think fits but am unable to come up with a better one.

I hope other writers do this and that some of you will be prepared to own up about it. :-)

It makes me feel like a right idiot when I realise I've spent 30 minutes on one sentence, which is much the same as when I started in on it.

Successful writing everyone - Nick

Sounds very familiar to me, Nick! Oh yes, checking and re-checking and re-checking every word, not just the sentence, is vital. Leaving it to settle, then to re-check again is not uncommon. I’m no expert (first-time author myself) and I’m sure there are more experienced authors on Goodreads who can offer advice/insights, but you seem to be doing all the right things. Keep up good work and good luck with upcoming publication. CB

Colin wrote: "Sounds very familiar to me, Nick! Oh yes, checking and re-checking and re-checking every word, not just the sentence, is vital. Leaving it to settle, then to re-check again is not uncommon. I’m no ..."

Thanks, Colin - good to know I'm not alone.

I started writing this saga almost 2 years ago because I was bored in the lockdown. I wrote for myself, and it's only recently that I began wondering if there is a market for my writings.

Time will tell, I suppose. Hopefully I will e-publish it soon, and then it will be down to what readers think.

All the best - Nick

I spent the first 5 years of my working life as a proof-reader, but everything you've described is still very familiar to me. I do my own proof-reading and editing (I was in 3 orbiters for a number of years so I learned to edit and write feedback then) and leave myself notes in the text in a different colour. At the end of the day, I can only say this: the meaning of each sentence needs to be clear (and not woolly, overlong, with unnecessary complication). I also worked as a professional trainer and evening class teacher and wrote my own courses, and again, the requirement is to present material clearly and cleanly, so the meaning can be understood immediately. I think this has helped me to edit a lot over the past few years since I started publishing my writings. If you aren't intending to pay a professional editor, it might still be useful to get someone else to read it and flag anything that isn't clear. Hope this helps. <3

Helen wrote: "I spent the first 5 years of my working life as a proof-reader, but everything you've described is still very familiar to me. I do my own proof-reading and editing (I was in 3 orbiters for a number..."

Thanks for that, Helen.

The main reason I am reluctant to pay for help is that I have no idea whether my writing will generate any income. If this book sells well, then I will have a rethink about finding professional help for the next one.

I have two old friends who are retired teachers, so I have asked for their help reading through my writing.

Cheers Nick

It is critical to pay for a professional editor. And, yes, you may incur a loss. And, yes, you will learn how to cut costs on the production of your next book; such as in illustrator costs. The editor should have expertise and be a fresh pair of eyes. That gives us the time we need to do want we want -- to write. Many instructors who've been around for several years have all said that those who self-publish who have not had their book edited, product a lesser quality product, and tarnish the self publishing world -- for those of us who spend the money.
That said, I re-wrote the first page of my book 16 times. I tore up and re-wrote my prologue a half dozen times. The definition of writing is, well, re-writing. I read in a book about writing that if you take your book to a publisher and they ask you how many times you've re-written your book and you give them a number anything less than ten, they won't even look at your book. The first time I read that, I said to myself, 'there's no way I'm going to write my book over ten times. Then I stopped counting after thirteen. I thought I could publish my first book one month after giving it to an editor, haha. My first editor, then, basically and to my astonishment, told me to 'start over.' I did. then I wrote too much, and the next editor I paid told me to cut the book back by twenty percent. That was really hard; and when my real work began. As a result, I published a tightly written fiction story, improved grammar, and deleted the fluff and characters that were not relevant enough. All total, I relied on four editors. I'll not make a profit, but it was done during covid lockdown, the learning curve was a roller coaster ride, and I've never enjoyed anything more in my life. BTW, I didn't lose that much money; and I got my book into the hands of the market I was seeking.
This industry is extremely competitive, and unfortunately, a huge number of good stories written by good authors who don't get recognition. Best of Luck, and if you have a good story, write about it.

Colleen wrote: "It is critical to pay for a professional editor. And, yes, you may incur a loss. And, yes, you will learn how to cut costs on the production of your next book; such as in illustrator costs. The edi..."

Hi Colleen.
That's quite a story.

I know this much, if what it takes to knock my story into shape is 13+ rewrites, then it will never see the light of day. I don't have that sort of dedication to writing in me.

Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences.

Nick

Nick wrote: "I am proofreading and copy editing my first book, hoping to have it ready for publishing in around 7 weeks time.

This is a chore, but I have knocked close to 2 thousand words off my 4K total, most..."

Oh sure, I've been known to change a sentence around a number of times. Often it's actually changing two or even three sentences to get the flow right.

Edited to add: Sometimes I end up more or less back where I started from, which is okay so long as that's actually the best of the alternatives I've explored.

Further edited to add: All this is before my wife and editor gets to look at it. And she always suggests further changes.

Dale wrote: "Nick wrote: "I am proofreading and copy editing my first book, hoping to have it ready for publishing in around 7 weeks time.

This is a chore, but I have knocked close to 2 thousand words off my 4..."
Hi Dale,
How goes things ?

I'm a keen gardener, and one of my sins is struggling to throw seedlings away if I have too many.

You sow the seeds, then when they all come it's a miracle. But then you find you have 100 little tomato plants and only want 20. Part of my problem with editing is my reluctance to be ruthless and thin words hard enough.

They say that fruit growers used to swap orchards when thinning time came round, as taking off enough immature fruit was easier when you were doing it to someone else's trees.

Cheers

Nick

Not entirely sure of the point Colleen is trying to make, needing to rely on the judgement of four disparate individuals. Other than it will cost and likely never be re-cooped. Editors are no special, unique creature (unicorns). And honestly it is insulting to suggest they are the exclusive unknown factor X that in its absence all self-published works are consequently inferior. Everyone makes mistakes. Editors are flawed, prone to bias and errors in judgement as we all are. The market is replete with a surfeit of cowboys and charlatans. There is no magic formula which guarantees success, largely it is down to timing and luck. Especially luck, and of course, an interesting well-written tale usually helps.

In 1976 Barbara Cartland wrote 23 novels in a single year. Over 700 novels in her lifetime and sold over 750 million. And although dead many years, is still releasing new works. L Ron Hubbard wrote over a thousand in his lifetime. Enough for entries in the Guinness book records, but IMHO both are best avoided.

All authors face rejection, criticism at some point, none are immune. As stated this is a brutal, cut-throat industry and the rewards are scarce with only a select few earning fame and fortune. But consider this, many state the desire to write a novel or two, however, life intervenes and so never achieve their goal. You have, even if it never gets published.

As I believe I mentioned previously in another thread Nick, editing is the hard part. You will need to read, re-read, edit and re-edit a dozen times or more. You will endlessly replace words, re-order sentences or whole paragraphs. You will never be truly 100% happy and it can get very depressing at times. Also your friends and family, if roped in, will begin to hate you. However, if you persist it does come to an end at some point. Having engaged an actual editor they might suggest changes, but they do not or should not provide the remedy. And the 'advice' can be ignored. It is your own effort in the end, so feel free to cut out the middle-man.

My Tips (honestly, as worthless as all others)

1. Don't overwrite/pad/waffle in the first place. It makes cutting the chaff that much easier later on.
2. Have a clear vision of what you are trying to convey. Plot it out in detail first if you must.
3. Be brutal/harsh in your own criticisms first, save time before others do later on. :( It does hurt.
4. First chapters are vitally important, equally the end requires special attention too.
5. Get a good dictionary, thesaurus, grammatical instruction and a word-processor with in-built checking.
6. There are close to 8 billion people on the planet, I guarantee someone will like it. Just hope for a positive reaction overall.
7. And when you are a raging success, remember all the little people who might have helped. :)

Regards

CC

Nick wrote: "I am proofreading and copy editing my first book, hoping to have it ready for publishing in around 7 weeks time.

This is a chore, but I have knocked close to 2 thousand words off my 4K total, most..."

Nick wrote: "I am proofreading and copy editing my first book, hoping to have it ready for publishing in around 7 weeks time.

This is a chore, but I have knocked close to 2 thousand words off my 4K total, most..."


Nick, what you're experiencing is common to most writers. Many times, I've spent countless hours doing the same thing.

Selecting the "right" word can be tedious, but it's well worth the effort. It's a sign that you want to produce quality work.

Keep at it. Your readers will appreciate the effort and enjoy a good, reading experience!

C.C. wrote: "Not entirely sure of the point Colleen is trying to make, needing to rely on the judgement of four disparate individuals. Other than it will cost and likely never be re-cooped. Editors are no speci..."
Hi CC,
Thanks a lot for again taking the time to comment in detail.

I still have a pile of editing to do, so I'm not there yet, but I can see there will come a point where enough is enough. Finding the sweet spot between being sloppy and being stale will come down to judgement, I suppose.

As I am splitting what I have written in two, I am also going to have to do a rewrite of what will be the final chapter in Book1. Not looking forward to that much either :-(

Cheers Nick

PS If I do become a second J K Rowling I promise to shower all my advisors on here with praise.

Nick wrote: "I am proofreading and copy editing my first book, hoping to have it ready for publishing in around 7 weeks time.

This is a chore, but I have knocked close to 2 thousand words off my 4K total, most..."

I do the same thing, part of the game. Enjoy your writing.

God bless

Bob Drews
www.authorsden.com
www.vertupublishing.com
www.robert-drews.com

I have no advice but thank you for posting this. I'm just on the 1st edit and thought I was obsessing over larger changes. Good to see this is normal and to read all the good advice and tips.

Hi, Nick Editing the bane of most writers' existence. I completely understand that not every person has the finances to put a ton of money into something that you are basically taking a leap of faith in. If you are not at a stage where you are ready or want to pay an editor I would like to mirror the last few sentences of what Helen said as a writer we are often to close to our work to see the gaps in the plot, grammar issues and as you so poignantly stated fluff. Having someone else even if it's a family member (provided they are going to give you honest feedback) can help you find some of these issues so you can improve your story. I also recommend finding Beta Readers who enjoy the genre you are writing. As long as you find some good beta readers they can find some of these issues too. You can also send them questions you would like to have answered like did the story drag in any parts, where the characters likable/hated etc. I had a couple of beta readers tell me in the book I am working on now that one part of the book felt rushed and/or they would like more information added. So I added additional content and sent that to them and they all agreed it improved the chapter. If you are not comfortable with that then I also recommend after you finish your first round of edits put your book down don't read, don't revise, don't even look at it. Pretend it just doesn't exist basically don't do anything with it for several weeks or months then go back and pick it up you may find issues you missed on your first round of edits. While I am nowhere near as experienced as some of the kind people who responded to this post these are just some of the things I have found to help me during my own journey, and in doing these things I have been told my own writing has improved. Good luck to you in your journey I wish you all the best.

I've done, and still do to a lesser extent, read-throughs when editing. I catch a lot but still miss a lot. I also record into my iPad and listen for poorly constructed sentences. This technique has worked very well for me. I've cleaned out quite a few clunkers.

The technique that works best for me by far, however, is a combination of sound & reading. Using Adobe Indesign I can export my books into Kindle (mobi) format. Then I load them onto my Kindle Fire which has text-to-speech. I read along while T-t-S is running and highlight any mistakes I've made. Then go back & correct them.

I'll give an example:

I'd written "... forced to where artic clothing... "
T-t-S pronounced the word correctly but my eyes signaled, "Whoa! Wait a minute. The word should be 'wear'."

To all fellow writers out there: Hope this helps people like me who cannot afford professional edits.

Good luck to all,
John Pansini

I will say both Marcelle and John make several excellent comments and suggestions.

If you lack the obliging friends/colleagues/beta readers willing to expend time re-reading the effort for the umpteenth time, I would agree with John. Text to speech is an excellent way of highlighting problems. They are not perfect by any means, but some bits truly stand out forcing a closer inspection. Myself, I suffer a form word blindness and often read a sentence subconsciously automatically filling in the gaps and changing tense on the fly.

Windows has an in-built facility (Apple may have this too, I do not know) and several different voices and speeds. I think I use Hazel or David (UK versions). I have tried the Amazon version (not to be confused with Audible) and like it less. They are similar, but the results/faults are shall we say different. I use Libra Office and there is a plug-in which can make use of this. I believe MS Word can do this by default. I select sentences, paragraphs and whole chapters and listen out for the inevitable mistakes.

I also use Grammarly (free version). This not a plug for this particular software (others like Autocrit are available and have been tried), and it is far from perfect, but it helps spot things like where, wear, their, there, to, too and two. Boring sentences, partial sentences, word choice and several hundred other common grammatical mistakes. I cut and paste whole chapters in at a time, fix it then re-read the chapter. I find then yet more things to change and repeat the process. You can add personal words to the dictionary to prevent errors recurring and it hates/prefers certain things which can be ignored. The primary reason I like Grammarly is it has a desktop version for this, but all such software requires internet access. I aim for zero, but this is not always possible with some word choice preferences and dialogue can still create issues. Autocrit has many more reports and features, but the free version is rather restrictive. Though I do like to drop in the occasional chapter for their full report ( a high 80 or 90% is the goal). For reference the Stephen King average is in the high 70s, low 80s, however they do investigate the entire novel. :)

The paid version will highlight and offer suggestions for all the problems. The free version leaves a fair number untouched, but does reveal where they are. Usually it only requires a comma, semi-colon to fix, though sometimes a re-write/re-order is needed or is the better solution. Some errors are hard to spot and in such circumstance I resort to deleting paragraphs to locate them.

Regards

CC

Brilliant advice, which I am going to follow as far as setting up, so I can have my book read to me automatically.

Thanks to CC and John especially

All the best - Nick

PS I decided to set myself up on KDP as this will be necessary later anyway, and I hope will make it easier to proofread e-books on my Kindle. Filling in forms is one of those jobs I hate more than editing, but I think I'm on the platform now.

Nick wrote: "They say that fruit growers used to swap orchards when thinning time came round, as taking off enough immature fruit was easier when you were doing it to someone else's trees."

I can see that! My wife has the same problem with thinning the greed babies. I'm a bit less reluctant, but I do feel a twinge of guilt now and then.

All I can say is, cutting gets easier with practice. I'm working on a short story for a contest right now, and the other day I found myself hacking out phrases and even an entire sentence here and there as unnecessary. I don't feel half as reluctant to do so now as I used to. Just keep practicing. It will get easer.

C.C. wrote: "Not entirely sure of the point Colleen is trying to make, needing to rely on the judgement of four disparate individuals. Other than it will cost and likely never be re-cooped. Editors are no special, unique creature (unicorns). And honestly it is insulting to suggest they are the exclusive unknown factor X that in its absence all self-published works are consequently inferior."

I think she was just saying that having a good editor is indispensable. She may have used four on one work, but I don't think she was suggesting that as a "magic number," just what she had done.

You're right, of course, that editors can make mistakes and that there are other factors besides a good editor that go into a successful book. Not even the greatest editor in the world can save a work that is fatally flawed. (That's one reason rejection slips were invented.) And it is always possible for a writer to learn sufficient editing skills to produce a pretty good product without an editor. But a good editor can put a shine on almost any work.

I just gave a short story I'm writing for the first round of a contest to my editor--who happens to be my wife. A happy arrangement! I'd done several rewrites and had it in pretty good shape. Nevertheless, she rewrote one sentence that had been giving me trouble, suggested a word change in another place, and caught a typo I had missed. Those changes might make the difference between placing high and actually advancing to the second round.

Four editors might be excessive for most of us, in terms of cost at least. But are editors necessary? Yep!

Dale wrote: "C.C. wrote: "Not entirely sure of the point Colleen is trying to make, needing to rely on the judgement of four disparate individuals. Other than it will cost and likely never be re-cooped. Editors..."

Hi Dale,
Thanks for the encouragement.

I go one of two ways when I hit problems - either stubborn or wimpy - I'm in my stubborn mode with this book now, so that will ensure something gets published. How rough around the edges it will be depends on how long my patience holds.

BTW How much does your wife charge for editing ? Would she be inclined to give a discount in return for a native guide showing you round the Wye Valley. (only joking)

All the best - Nick

Copy and conceptual editing or even proofreading one's own work is never a good idea. When attempting to do so, the human brain tends to often see what was intended rather than what is actually written.

Obtaining the services of a professional copy editor and conceptual editor is well worth the investment for any author.

Jim wrote: "Copy and conceptual editing or even proofreading one's own work is never a good idea. When attempting to do so, the human brain tends to often see what was intended rather than what is actually wri..."

Hi Jim,
If you mean "worth" it in monetary terms, doesn't that rather depend on how well the final book sells ?

It's easy enough to imagine spending a reasonable sum on editing and selling very few books.

After all, even an impeccably edited and grammatically correct book may also be an exceptionally boring one.

All the best - Nick

The writing/publishing world is extremely competitive. Only a very small percentage of the hundreds of thousands of new books published each year ever achieve commercial success and prove profitable to the author. That said; if one believes that their work is worth publishing, making it available to the public, they should perform the due diligence and invest in the editing, marketing, and distribuition support required to, at least, have a chance to realize commercial success.

Jim wrote: "The writing/publishing world is extremely competitive. Only a very small percentage of the hundreds of thousands of new books published each year ever achieve commercial success and prove profitabl..."

As writing is a hobby for me rather than something I do to earn my bread and butter, I am going down the minimum spend route.

I can however, fully understand that for a professional writer what you are advocating makes perfect sense.

In the absence professional edits, having a friend/spouse/co-worker read back on your work pays great dividends in catching mistakes, oversights, and unclarities.

God bless.

Nick wrote: "BTW How much does your wife charge for editing ? Would she be inclined to give a discount in return for a native guide showing you round the Wye Valley. (only joking)"

Unfortunately, she's not accepting clients right now due to health issues. She's still doing mine, but that's about all she can handle. (Which isn't entirely a comment on my writing, but I do have my moments...)

Dale wrote: "Nick wrote: "BTW How much does your wife charge for editing ? Would she be inclined to give a discount in return for a native guide showing you round the Wye Valley. (only joking)"

Unfortunately, ..."

Hi Dale,

Please wish your wife well from me.

Cheers

Nick