The Sword and Laser discussion

I'm going to bounce as well just not my style, feels to disconnected.

It all comes together.

It only feels disconnected at the start, until the seemingly unconnected threads starting weaving together into one story.

It seemed to me, even all the disconnected parts, when they started to come together, were still only connected to one or two other parts and not the whole.

I mean, the book opens with Dudley's adventure and then it was like eight gabillion pages before we got back to him. Ozzie's adventures are only brief interludes extremely disconnected from the rest of the story except for a couple of characters wondering why he's not answering his phone. I know he has a goal that's related to the main story, but finding what he's looking for doesn't even get resolved in PS.

It's a fascinating world, a basic plot with tons of Tom Clancy-esque diversions that haven't resolved by the end of the book, and what must be 95% of it world-building and info-dumping rather than moving the plot forward.

Light Chaser was quite fun.

Tassie Dave wrote: "It all comes together.

It only feels disconnected at the start, until the seemingly unconnected threads starting weaving together into one story."
Of the Hamilton I've read the problem for me wasn't that they didnt come together but that all the side stories weren't needed to tell the main story and I could have gotten that, sans the extra stuff, in a lot fewer pages. But that mess of lots of stuff is what some people like.

It sounds like a lot of people want the Reader's Digest Condensed Book version of Pandora's Star 😉

Which is fine, but for me, Pandora's Star is about the journey, not the destination 😎

I’m surprised at all the negativity towards this book here. I would have expected people here especially to love it more.

I feel like it's a chunky epic fantasy book, with a lot of characters and a lot of description.

Brad wrote: "I’m surprised at all the negativity towards this book here. I would have expected people here especially to love it more."

We're very fickle.

Tassie Dave wrote: "It sounds like a lot of people want the Reader's Digest Condensed Book version of Pandora's Star 😉

Which is fine, but for me, Pandora's Star is about the journey, not the destination 😎"

Many of the SF classics are well under 300 pages. Sometimes more is not better it's just more.

Brad wrote: "I’m surprised at all the negativity towards this book here. I would have expected people here especially to love it more."

I'm at 65% and I'm really enjoying it (except for Ozzie's storyline). The worldbuilding is incredible and I like the majority of the characters and their storylines (especially Paula Myo).

I'm still waiting for more of the storylines to link to each other but in the meantime I'm enjoying the ride.

Yes love Paula Myo, Ozzie's quest not as much, although his home is very cool. I think once you get to the alien, it's downhill (in a good way) from there.

Tassie Dave wrote: "It sounds like a lot of people want the Reader's Digest Condensed Book version of Pandora's Star 😉

Which is fine, but for me, Pandora's Star is about the journey, not the destination 😎"

For me it was just too disjointed we had all these different stories that we were jumping to that seemed only to be mildly connected. On top of that, I wasn't really interested in any of the characters, they were all well written but I wasn't really all that interested in any of them. I vacillated between not caring, bored or confused on how all of this was connected. I might have stuck it out for a shorter book but for a 37-hour audiobook that's a big ask.

Honestly, I don't really care if something "gets better later" if you can't keep me interested until I've gotten to the great place you've not done a good job. I am disappointed since I really liked the Great North Road when it was suggested.

Guess this one just wasn't my cup of tea.

Interesting, I liked Great North Road but I think it’s probably my least favorite from Hamilton, with this (and Judas Unchained) being my favorite.

I’ve also given up on the book, at about only 20% in. The pacing certainly had something to do with it, particularly as I had to drag myself through the 200 (only 200! it seemed like double that!), and then realised I had 5x that to get to the middle of a story

But there were 2 things even more than that. First, the characters felt very flat to me. In fact I can only really say that one character was interesting (Paula Myo). Just before reading this book I’d been on a tear with books bursting with characters that leap off the page (e.g. Age of Madness trilogy from Joe Abercrombie, Murderbot Diaries, City of Blades/Miracles by Robert Jackson Bennett). So the lack of compelling characters was stark. (And weirdly seemed to flow into his descriptions of places which seemed very dry). It’s actually made me realise how much more I value character these days, certainly over world building or “high concept”. Changing tastes I guess.

Second was that, given the increasing wealth inequality in the real world, I’m sometimes struggling to enjoy media that leans heavily into that idea. Here, reading that the best humanity had managed with so many years of progress was just bigger more powerful corporations running the world run by older, richer more powerful people, just turned me off even quicker. Maybe that changed later, based on the “resistance” fighters… but I’m not going to find out.

Hm, I'm puzzled by the idea that the Commonwealth is a place of inequality. Seems to me like it has unprecedented freedom and prosperity. One of my reasons for liking the books is that the Commonwealth is a place I'd enjoy living in.

I think the book doesn’t really reckon with the topic in any way and that’s fine. Not every book has to be everything.

John (Taloni) wrote: "Hm, I'm puzzled by the idea that the Commonwealth is a place of inequality. Seems to me like it has unprecedented freedom and prosperity.."

It might be, but since most if not all of the characters are super wealthy and/or on their 2nd/3rd/whatever lifetime, it's hard to tell.

It's easy to see a society as prosperous when your only point of reference is the top 1%.

I’m not sure if the book addresses it in any real sense, but the whole first section with Adam Elvin is about a “socialist” resistance (I think… not sure about the specifics of the label there). Then there was that bit on Augusta basically describing a hyper-capitalist society. I guess, given how I perceive the current arc of capitalism playing out, that humanity’s future would be different than just being more capitalist. (In any case, it was just another thing that decreased my immersion and enjoyment)

I think freedom and prosperity can co-exist with inequality, if the freedom and prosperity pool at the top. But we are possibly getting into territory that’s too political…

Thanks to the early warning, I started this book in January. I agree with many in this post in that the beginning is quite slow with numerous character introductions and side stories. The book ends on a bit of a cliff hanger right when the story is picking up, so I started reading the second book, which is even longer.

The second book has a similar pacing. Though, there are not as many character introductions. Plenty of side stories still though. All of the stories do come together eventually with a satisfying ending.

Overall, I liked the story. Not sure if I liked the author’s view of the future. Very capitalistic and materialistic. Also, seemed odd that there was so much emphasis on physical beauty when gene modification and re-life’ing was available. If everyone could be beautiful, would not other human factors then become attractive?

I find it odd that so many are finding themes of inequality in the book. I found it a post-scarcity prosperity of freedom and opportunity. Yes, wealth differences exist in the book, but people can go anywhere in the linked worlds easily, live where they want, and live multiple lives.

it's not so much that those themes are present as so many of the protagonists being incredibly rich. I think there was only one character who actually worked for a living.

I just don’t see why the book has to have more equity in the society it’s depicting in order to be a good story. How many fantasy books are there that involve rich royalty as main characters? Nobody goes on about how the wealth inequality in those stories was distracting or whatever. This doesn’t line up with my opinion about wealth inequality in reality but there’s a difference between real life and fictional worlds.

I wasn’t saying that all books must contain more equitable societies to be enjoyable (Age of Madness as an example I referenced in my post is certainly not that).

I was trying to work out in my own mind what all the reasons were that made me not really enjoy this book at this time. And that was one of the reasons. And it would be more noticeable due to other things I’m reading/thinking about this past year. And that the society of the future had enough closeness to my own to make the comparison easy.

Regarding people who don’t see themes of inequality… they literally talk about companies driving trains full of crops into space to keep prices high. People go to Augusta to spend multiple lifetimes working their way up the corporate ladder. Sounds a lot like the current era of freedom and opportunity to me.

As Sean said, the protagonists are the people who are the ultra rich in that society, so it’s easy to see it from that viewpoint. My current trains of thought meant that I was thinking about that from the flip side.

Slow, slower, slowest.

I’m enjoying the story, but 89% of the way in I think it can be assumed that I know most roads, pavements, tarmacs, etc. are made of enzyme bonded concrete.

I’m not sure why that irritates me so much, but it seems to me the book would be improved if phrases like “The broad strip of enzyme-bonded concrete…” we’re replaced by “The road…”

Finally finished the whole story (both PS and JU). Damn good story in general. All the threads do come finally come together (Chekhov's gun comes off the mantel), and the ending is quite satisfactory.

But. Jesus on a pony! IMHO it is way way too long. I reckon the story could have been better told in half the pages.

I'm only 5 pages in but I have already found that skipping the technical jargon makes it go faster. It's not like I know if that stuff is accurate or what it's saying and my brain tunes it out anyway, so I just SKIP do you hate me now?

Yes! Hate! Loathing! Utter contempt!

...okay, I even enjoyed this duology and found myself skipping a technical section near the end of Judas Unchained. Blah blah techno problem obscure solution OF COURSE THEY'RE GOING TO FIND THE ANSWER I DON'T NEED FIFTY PAGES OF THIS skim skim skim.

Jenny's reading speed secret is skipping. Does that mean most authors overwrite?

I think Hamilton pays unusual attention to buildings and city layouts. I've gotten used to it.

Tamahome wrote: "Jenny's reading speed secret is skipping. Does that mean most authors overwrite? "

I specifically do this with non-fiction from authors who never moved past the style of the five-paragraph essay (which most writers learn in high school and unlearn later if they ever have further writing instruction) because the first line of a paragraph tells you everything you need to know. ;)

I found it hard to keep up with all the characters at first. I started and restarted and restarted but I eventually enjoyed it enough to immediately buy Judas Unchained.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I'm only 5 pages in but I have already found that skipping the technical jargon makes it go faster. It's not like I know if that stuff is accurate or what it's saying and my brain tunes it out anyw..."

Top Tip. It’s not accurate.

I sat there trying to read it again, realised my mind was drifting and I didn’t really care what was going on and I thought, ‘no, this either isn’t for me, or it isn’t for me right now’. Like, there were some engaging enough short stories there, but I didn’t get any sense of the whole. I have so many books I want to read right now, so I decided to do myself a favour and skip this.

I think William had a good point that maybe reading in isolation without much else to do would be beneficial. Maybe one day, I’ll be in a position like that, and will try this book again. For now though, life is too short and there are too many other great books to be getting on with instead.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "...I have already found that skipping the technical jargon makes it go faster. ..I just SKIP do you hate me now..."

Love you more for it! I skipped over a TON of these books, as I've mentioned elsewhere.

Hamilton needed an editor capable of saying "If you're gonna have a hit, you gotta make it fit. So cut it down to 305 pages."

Kev wrote: "...
Hamilton needed an editor capable of saying "If you're gonna have a hit, you gotta make it fit. So cut it down to 305 pages.""

Chortle. Good one, Kev!
(Goes to dig out old Billy Joel CDs.)

This is my third time going through the story. I fell for the technology it describes and liked characters like Paula, Adam and Justine. I liked the how we can go through all of MorningLightMountain's journey and terrifying mindset. I agree the books can be shorter, but I rather liked the journey. It's the details and nuances that make me enjoy the book because I liked the characters and the world.

It would be interesting to see what this community thinks of the Void Trilogy, it has kind of parallel stories that are both sci-fi and fantasy in a cool way.

I agree that many chapters feel like a novella. There are so many concepts introduced, that this one book could’ve easily been a series. Chapter 18 in particular could be a whole book and sort of reminded me of the video game “Spore”.

In some ways, this book is similar to my reading experience of The Song of Ice and Fire books: I’m disappointed when a chapter that I’m enjoying ends and the book moves on to a different storyline, only to subsequently get into the new storyline. Then when the book comes around to the original storyline it’s a pleasant surprise, and when the storylines start to weave together it’s extremely satisfying.

This sort of story weaving is celebrated in film (hello 90s cinema ie. Pulp Fiction, Magnolia, etc.), maybe because you’re only investing an hour or two before the payoff, but is harder to keep a reader involved for hours on end. Neal Stephenson’s “Baroque Cycle” is a work of genius but man was it work getting there!

Whelp... I gave it the old college try, but I'm gonna Lem it. I dipped out of a Malazan book to read this, so it is not like I am scared of hefty books, but dang.
Old boy could have used GZA as an editor, "Make it brief son: half short, twice strong!"

In general, I enjoyed it. I like the effort that the author obviously put into plotting out all of threads, fully realizing the wormholes' effects on society, as well as that of the memory transfers, etc.

I don't begrudge the time it took to read... not really... okay, I kind of do. Having read this, and also just finished The Name of the Wind, I'm frustrated (view spoiler)[ at slogging through these books to get to the end only to be told, "Yeah, all that time you spent? It was for nothing. You get no resolution. Not a single story wraps up. However, if you WANT some closure, I've got this OTHER book here... " It will be hard to read the follow-ups and also read whatever next month's book pick is (and good luck to me keeping all the characters straight if I try, I can't name but two or three of them from either PS or NotW) which I think defeats the purpose of being in a book club to begin with - or at the very least hampers my enjoyment of it. Would it kill these authors to complete a storyline or two, even as they tease the next book? I suppose the invasions count as an ending of the "what will the Prime do?" plotline, but even that feels like a pause more than a resolution.

Or maybe I'm just a completionist and had two long cliffhangers fall at once which overly sensitized me to it and I should just get over it. (hide spoiler)]

I had to finish it on my vacation because I promised myself I couldn't start another book. It did pay off, but I still think it's too long and I forgot a lot of the details while reading the book which made it a bit harder to read for me. I am also torn, because I would like to know how the stories wrap up, but I don't see myself getting into the second book any time soon, because it was just soooo long.

Honestly, I think the first book has more good scenes overall.