Reading the Detectives discussion

Welcome to our Feb/March 22 buddy read of Holy Disorders by Edmund Crispin, the 2nd Gervase Fen mystery, first published in 1945.

Gervase Fen--the eccentric Oxford don with a knack for solving "impossible" crimes--made his debut in The Case of the Gilded Fly, which Edmund Crispin (in reality, composer Bruce Montgomery) wrote to win a bet. With Holy Disorders, Crispin's skills matured, but Fen remains as maddeningly childish as ever, still deliciously fond of his own wit and erudition, and given to quoting Lewis Carroll at inappropriate occasions.

First published in 1945, Holy Disorders takes Fen to the town of Tolnbridge, where he is happily bounding around with a butterfly net until the cathedral organist is murdered, giving Fen the chance to play sleuth. The man didn't have an enemy in the world, and even his music was inoffensive: Could he have fallen afoul of a nest of German spies or of the local coven of witches, ominously rumored to have been practicing since the 17th century? Tracking down the answer pleases Fen immensely--only the reader will have a better time. This, said the New York Times Book Review, is "Fen at his very best."

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

I did think the plot was good and I had no idea who was behind the murders, however I wasn't keen on the first book in this series The Case of the Gilded Fly but was hoping that the subsequent book, would be more to my liking. This started off well, and looked like it might be a fun read, but once Fen appeared, to me it just wasn't fun any longer. I don't like the way Vintner sees women (Either as money-diggers or sluts) but did accept that he felt like that in the first book. But Fen in this really annoyed me. He is forever telling people that he knows what is going on, but never tells anyone. He is very rude to people and I can't help thinking in real life, people would not stand for it. I realise that Crispin was an acholic, but think he must have had a good few snifters when he suddenly brings into the story, a maths lecturer from university, who had nothing to add to the story at all. Not even the maths, and certainly not anything comical.

I enjoyed this, although I do find Fen rather peculiar and quite rude. He’s also not as clever as he thinks he is, as he was fooled by the note and kidnapped when Vintner and Fielding (not the sharpest themselves) saw through it at once.

I have to say I did find it funny, particularly the slapstick scene in the department store, the Socialist in the train, and the scene with the chap with the pet raven who’d never heard of the poem. The plot was just bonkers though, Crispin seems to have thrown in everything he could think of.

I thought the scene in the shop was fun, and right up to the time when Fen arrived I was thinking what a difference this was to the first book, and maybe I had judged Crispin wrong. But after that, I was so disappointed, and then I just got steadily annoyed with Fen.

I enjoyed a lot of the humour, but found the plot a bit rambling and couldn't keep track of all the characters. I did really like the shop scene and the raven.

Although I'd read this before, I didn't remember the culprits (hardly surprising given how complicated it is!) I prefer solutions when there isn't a gang involved, but given the wartime setting I suppose that's understandable.

I did find it a surprise when Frances was involved, as I suppose I've got used to the young lovers always being in the clear in some other authors' books.

Regarding the young lovers, I was a bit concerned that Vintner would not be able adapt to marriage. He was very hesitant when not overwhelmed by Frances' presence.

I quite enjoyed this, although agree that Fen is annoying and too mannered to like, which is I think a handicap for a mystery series-not to like the detective! As I said in the other thread, I had to go back and read The Raven which made that particular chapter quite striking in its silliness. I also liked that the organ and Choral Evensong music were brought into the plot-as someone who has sung in an Anglican church choir that regularly sings Evensong services it was an added bonus. The plot was of course somewhat ridiculous but I was completely fooled by Frances-I rather expected Fielding might have been the mastermind, given how he had latched onto Fen and invited him along on the trip to Tolnbridge. I look forward to further reads in this series.

I also suspected Fielding as he was so good at inviting himself into the action. However, he would have to have been great actor as well. I hope they find something for him to do where he won't hurt the war effort.

Judy, for some reason I had Frances down as being involved. Not sure why really, she seemed too good. Not often I find myself guessing correctly in crime books.

I finally crawled my way through. Unlike the rest of you, I quite like Fen and his exuberant rudeness. Having spent a good deal of time in academe, I don’t find his behavior so improbable; I’ve known a lot of scholars who pride themselves on being “above” good manners.

The story didn’t do so much for me, though; I felt as if World War II had suppressed Crispin’s own exuberance and his sense of humor. There was so much here that strayed toward melodrama.

I did pick up on the fact that Frances had no reason to know about the four-leaf clover so I suspected her, though I thought she might be in league with Dutton and Savernake instead of Savernake and Fielding. (Dutton also didn’t have an alibi for either murder, and he might have lied about not hearing the noise.) And I suspected her all the more after wondering who would have the opportunity to drug her sister. Also, Frances’s behavior at the beach was unpredictable and inconsistent, so I didn’t believe in her sudden love for Geoffrey.

Not one of my favorite Crispins!

P.S. I was also annoyed by the linkage of witchcraft and Devil worship.

Abigail wrote: "P.S. I was also annoyed by the linkage of witchcraft and Devil worship."

I noticed that, too. I disliked the whole witchcraft/devil worship sub-plot - the rather nasty dwelling on the torture and the haunting of the Bishop, as well as the sheer unlikeliness of people going in for devil worship, among the wives of influential and militarily important men.

I did wonder if I should downgrade it from 3 stars, but decided to leave it, for now, at least.

Witchcraft—the traditional kind, not connected in any way with Devil worship—was having a bit of a revival in England in the 1940s and 1950s, so there’s really no excuse for the author’s conflating the two. What he depicted in this book was straight-up Devil worship in all its ickiness and tedium. Among the middle classes it was mostly the province of bored thrill seekers, like swinging a few decades later; now it’s more callow boys who find it alluring.

I believe he stressed that this was something peculiar to this town with its history of burning witches in the past long after it had died out elsewhere in the country. You're right though that it is sloppy to lump the two together.

Devil worship also cropped up in another GA novel I've read in the last year or so - I'm not sure if it was conflated with witchcraft in that one too. I'm not 100% certain which book it was, but had better not say anyway to avoid spoilers for that one!

Frances wrote: "I believe he stressed that this was something peculiar to this town with its history of burning witches in the past long after it had died out elsewhere in the country. You're right though that it ..."

I don't know if that 'history' was based on any real events. England was a lot less given to witch trials and executions than other European countries, including Scotland, and burning was not the legal punishment.

Rosina wrote: "I don't know if that 'history' was based on any real events. England was a lot less given to witch trials and executions than other European countries, including Scotland, and burning was not the legal punishment. "

I didn't think it was based on any real events, I think he just made that up as background to explain why there would be witchcraft/devil worship (his pairing, not mine) in that town at this time.

I wondered if the town might be based partly on Teignmouth, but does anyone have any other ideas if there might have been an actual town model for Tolnbridge?