SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

i really love fantasy, but i don't think i've read enough to truly consider myself a fan, and i'd like to change that! i want to read books that are considered "classics," either because they're old enough to have had a big influence on creating the genre, or because enough people have read them that they've become modern classics. when i say high fantasy, i mean pretty much what people think of when they say fantasy books: knights, dragons, etc. a special emphasis on witches and wizards bc i find them really interesting, as well as strong female characters and (in newer books) lgbt representation. in other words, what's your favorite fantasy novel that you'd consider a staple of the genre?

Start with The Hobbit. If you like it, move on to The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

From almost opposing sides of the literary spectrum of fantasy:

If you don't already know them, try the Conan stories of Robert E. Howard -- NOT the pastiches by other hands, although some of them are quite good. Howard's one full-length novel, "The Hour of the Dragon," also published as "Conan the Conqueror," might make a good start, although it comes late in the hero's career.

Howard is notable for (mostly) very lean prose, and adventures in exotic places. Conan was placed in a fantasy milieu, which gave the author more flexibility than his historical fiction, with no need to spend time and money researching authenticity. His heroes are generally strong enough to fight their way out of any trap, but not particularly bright. This was deliberate. Howard was usually being paid a quarter to half a cent per word, and he said he didn't have time to think up something clever for the hero to do.

There are also some other Howard fantasy characters, notably Bran Mak Morn, King Kull, and Solomon Kane.

At the very opposite end in literary ambitions, and with no need to earn a living from his writing, was E.R. Eddison. He is best known for the long novel The Worm Ouroboros written in a style that owed a lot to early seventeenth-century English: but it absorbed influences from pre-Classical Greek poetry, the Icelandic Sagas, and Jacobean tragedy, among a great many other sources. It is not to every taste, but it has a devoted following.

I reviewed several editions on Amazon, as Ian Myles Slater: you can probably find them there with a Google search. There have been a flood of editions since it was published just before the copyright cutoff date, and I no longer know where my reviews have been switched by Amazon software.

If you like "Worm" -- and that is a big if, some people can't stand it -- you might (or might not) like his three Zimiamvia novels, which are loosely connected to "The Worm Ouroboros." Their setting is something like Renaissance Italy. The language, while not usually as dense as "Worm," may be an obstacle. A good dictionary may help, but is not essential, but it can build your vocabulary with wonderful words you will probably never have a chance to use.

The Zimiamvia books are often referred to as a trilogy, which is misleading.* The third book (in order of writing: first in chronology) was left unfinished at Eddison's death, but he already had plans for a fourth book. Those published are, in order of appearance, "Mistress of Mistresses," "A Fish Dinner in Memison," and "The Mezentian Gate." The last actually includes the second as off-stage episodes, and "Mistress" comes last in internal chronology.

They are packaged together with "Worm" in a Kindle edition as The Complete Zimiamvia, which is the easiest way to get them.

*The same is true of "The Lord of the Rings." Strictly speaking it is one book only published in three volumes to cut the financial risk to the publisher: and its internal structure is six short "books." (One edition was published that way.) The publisher also had Tolkien subsidize some of the costs of publication, in exchange for very large royalties, if any. It turned out to be a very good deal for the author.

Phillip wrote: "Start with The Hobbit. If you like it, move on to The Lord of the Rings trilogy."

i gotta say i really wasn't a fan of the hobbit, but i do hear people say they liked lotr even though they didn't like the hobbit, do you think i should give it a go?

Since I have no real idea of how much you have read, I'll stick with some older (but mostly not Eddison-old) classics.

Another possibility is Fritz Leiber, a science fiction writer for most of his career, but best known mainly for his Sword & Sorcery stories of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. (In fact, Leiber apparently invented the "Sword and Sorcery" designation.) They bear some resemblance to Howard -- some tropes are recognizable, if slightly parodied -- but with more literary ambitions, and greater craftsmanship. Then again, Leiber had a much longer life, and literary career. And his father was a well-known Shakespearean actor, so he had a more literary foundation than Howard, in his small Texas town.*

They were packaged by Ace Books with "Swords" in the title of every volume, and subsequent publishers kept up the practice. The titles are therefore a bit hard to keep straight; the latest editions are numbered. (And they now include a pastiche final -- so far -- volume.)

Leiber also wrote some great supernatural horror stories, found in numerous collections of his short fiction: and Our Lady of Darkness and Conjure Wife (Goodreads lists an omnibus containing both volumes), which could be classed as urban fantasy.

Poul Anderson was also best known as a science fiction writer (of very "hard" science in some cases), but he wrote some excellent fantasy, some humorous, some very dark. A partial list, in no particular order, is: "The Broken Sword," "Three Hearts and Three Lions," "Operation Chaos," "Hrolf Kraki's Saga" (not to be confused with an actual saga, once of his sources) "The Merman's Children," "Mother of Kings," and "The War of the Gods." Scandinavian backgrounds are important in most of these.

*Howard, by dint of storytelling talent and enormous productivity, made more money than anyone else in town, including the banker -- of course, this was the Great Depression, but still. His neighbors all wanted to know when he would quit fooling around with that writing, and get a real job.......

I don't know if they are considered classics of the genre, but I loved the Dragonlance Saga by Weiss and Hickman. The books begin with The Dragons of Autumn Twilight, then come The Dragons of Winter Night and The Dragons of Spring Dawning.
They are classics in that they have dragons, lots of them and magic. Characters are all individuals, and don't always agree with each other. There's the conflicted half-elf, Tanis; the strong fighter Caramon and his clever, but morose mage brother; the elf, Laurana, who starts out as a spoiled brat, but ends as a strong leader. There's a halfling,Tasslehoff, who is always getting into trouble. The most scary thing to hear is Tasslehoff saying ,'Oops'. He is a great character for adding some humour. Goldmoon, who is chosen by the gods to bring back their worship to the world of Krynn.
And the dwarf, Flint. Other characters come in, too.
Long before, there was a cataclysm when the gods sent a 'fiery mountain' onto Krynn, then abandoned the planet. I assume it was a large meteorite. The characters have to find a blue crystal staff, while being pursued by new creatures called Draconians.
I don't think I've done these books justice in my description, but they are classic epic fantasy. Save the world.
Oh, and there's a wonderful old mage called Fizban who gets into trouble with Tasslehoff.
The world of Krynn is well developed with a history.
This series also has many spin offs.

Lord Dunsany, who somehow found time in a crowded life (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Du...) to write several volumes of fantasy short stories, and several fantasy novels -- the latter being an acquired taste for some. There are numerous inexpensive or free editions of short story collections available through Kindle. For the titles, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...

He was, and sometimes still is, extremely influential, although this does not always work to the to the advantage of novices who try to imitate him (as noted by Ursula K. LeGuin, among others).

Fang wrote: "i gotta say i really wasn't a fan of the hobbit, but i do hear people say they liked lotr even tho..."

The Hobbit was originally a children's book while the Lord of the Rings trilogy was written with a larger audience in mind. I'd say give them a try and see if you like them better. The Dragonlance books are absolutely worth a look too.

Elric of Melniboné
The Dragonbone Chair
The Book of Jhereg
The Final Empire
The Eye of the World
Sabriel
The Once and Future King
The Color of Magic (although I think this first book wasn't nearly as good as the rest of the series)
Nine Princes in Amber
Tigana
A Wizard of Earthsea


I don't know if they qualify as classic but for something with good lgbt rep you might try the Nightrunner series by Lynn Flewelling.

Fang wrote: "Phillip wrote: "Start with The Hobbit. If you like it, move on to The Lord of the Rings trilogy."

i gotta say i really wasn't a fan of the hobbit, but i do hear people say they liked lotr even tho..."

I read the Hobbit a while back (25-30 years) and quite liked it and I've tried to read LOTR a number of times before and after and I just can't get past the first chapter or two. Reading it makes my head spin and I quickly lose interest. I love the movies though. LOTR and The Hobbit.

Jacqueline wrote: I read the Hobbit a while back (25-30 years) and quite liked it and I've tried to read LOTR a number of times before and after and I just can't get past the first chapter or two. Reading it makes my head spin and I quickly lose interest. I love the movies though. LOTR and The Hobbit.

I'm the opposite. I read LOTR as a 17 year old (almost 50 years ago) and loved it. I bypassed the Hobbit entirely and have never felt inclined to read it. I have seen the films for both books and enjoyed both series, although far preferring LOTR.

I also read the Conan books and Michael Moorcocks Eternal Champion series of which Elric of Melniboné listed by Fang above was one. I remember them as very much being of their time (60s & early 70s).

As a point of clarification: I specified the original Robert E. Howard Conan stories, which are products of the 1930s, and sometimes show it. The major extensions of the series, like Jordan's are not representative of them.

De Camp's 1960s pastiches and re-writes of non-Conan stories to fit Howard's invented Hyborian Age, mainly for the Lancer edition, do show a different sensibility, both because de Camp had a very different literary personality, which he didn't entirely suppress. Some of Howard's assumptions about race had simply become unacceptable, and were edited out or not included. Usually just a word here or there.

(However, labeling Howard simply a racist is tricky: he expressed sympathy for down-trodden minorities, and often contended that "savages" were morally superior to corrupt "civilization" -- see Rousseau for the classic version of that approach. But he was born in Texas in 1906, and sometimes used racial tropes in his fiction, probably without thinking about them.)

Periodization problems show up with single authors, as well, if they live long enough.

Fritz Leiber worked on the Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories at intervals between the very late 1930s and the middle 1980s. He didn't revise the earlier tales, but did write stories set before and after them, which probably changed the way later readers perceived them, as opposed to their single, out-of-order, magazine appearances. (I went into this at perhaps excessive length in a thread devoted to the first volume of the collected version.) In this case, I think the changes in attitude mainly regarded women.

Ian wrote: "As a point of clarification: I specified the original Robert E. Howard Conan stories, which are products of the 1930s, and sometimes show it. The major extensions of the series, like Jordan's are n..."

I haven't read the Conan stories but did like Conan the Barbarian the movie with Arnie.......yeahhhhh

By a nice coincidence, three of Poul Anderson's fantasy novels are currently marked down to $1.99 on Amazon

Three Hearts and Three Lions
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016CQUL4U?...

Hrolf Kraki's Saga
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016CQULI6?...

Mother of Kings
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08DTMR9WC?...

The first is light-hearted, the other two rather dark retellings of Migration Age and Viking Age legends/history -- but not as dark as The Broken Sword

V.M. wrote: "I don't know if they are considered classics of the genre, but I loved the Dragonlance Saga by Weiss and Hickman. The books begin with The Dragons of Autumn Twilight, then come The Dragons of Winte..."

this one sounds really interesting, i'll definitely check it out!

Caillen wrote: "Fang wrote: "i gotta say i really wasn't a fan of the hobbit, but i do hear people say they liked lotr even tho..."

The Hobbit was originally a children's book while the Lord of the Rings trilogy ..."


thanks so much for taking the time to write this out and add the links!

I agree J.R.R. Tolkien 4-Book Boxed Set: The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings (includes the Hobbit) fits "Staple of the genre."

Others I would definitely include:
The Dragonriders of Pern
The Great Book of Amber
The Deathgate Cycle which starts with Dragon Wing
Thieves' World
Elric of Melniboné
And the Darkover series which doesn't run in a particular order, but a good place to start is The Bloody Sun

I'm sure I'll think of others.

see this thread about MZB before you recommend the Darkover series:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

CBRetriever wrote: "see this thread about MZB before you recommend the Darkover series:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/......"

I know about the controversy. The books are still good. She isn't profiting from them so I try not to think of the association of author/books.

Oh and I read most of them out of the library.

David Eddings - the Belgariad, to begin with - Raymond Feist - the Riftwar Saga - and second the 'Dragonriders of Pern' for this.

(Modern fantasy classics)

I’m currently devouring The Traitor Baru Cormorant and subsequent books by Seth Dickinson. Not high fantasy, but hits the strong women and lgbtq+ points. It’s a recent book but I’m enjoying it so much I had to mention it.

I agree with the above that Eddings, Feist and MaCaffery are modern classics. I certainly read them growing up as a kid. But for more queer influences I loved Mercedes Lackey. Her books were the first fantasy books I really found with gay and lesbian representation.

I have a deep love for all fantasy books when paired with a good queer MC.

Megan wrote: "I’m currently devouring The Traitor Baru Cormorant and subsequent books by Seth Dickinson. Not high fantasy, but hits the strong women and lgbtq+ points. It’s a recent book but I’m enjoying it so m..."

ooh those sound great! and me toooo definitely let me know if you have any more queer fantasy

Take a look at the Pride in Fantasy book list, Resources for Diverse and Inclusive Books and:

The Traitor Baru Cormorant >> First impressions | Final thoughts

:)

V.M. wrote: "I don't know if they are considered classics of the genre, but I loved the Dragonlance Saga by Weiss and Hickman. The books begin with The Dragons of Autumn Twilight, then come The Dragons of Winte..."

I actually picked up the first six novels in the series again after reading them when they first came out in the 1980's. I'm older now, so since I fondly remembered the books, I wanted to see how they held up.

Unfortunately, not so well from an adult standpoint. I still appreciated the plot and story, and thought that the writing got better with the 'Twins' trilogy, but the characters and writing level is better suited for YA / teenagers as an audience.

Would I recommend the series? Yes, the main characters are fun and Krynn is an interesting world. But for an adult, I would point them in a different direction first.

OK, a bit late to the party, so some of my suggestions are just additional thumb's up to the ones already posted. So, on we go.

I'll give a 2nd thumbs up to Phillip's recommendation to The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. Tolkien is the grandfather of modern high fantasy and the effort into legends is fantastic, but can require a deeper dive, including the Silmarilian and new off takes (The Children of Hurin, Fall of Gondolin, and Beren and Luthien). But, if you haven't read them yet, realize that they are not hack-and-slash stories.

More thumbs up to Ian's recommendation for both the Conan books and Farfd and Grey Mouser. I still appreciate the classic line of how they initially planned to split the treasure that they found (60/60).

Caileen's thumbs up for the Elric series (Elric is not exactly a parody of Conan, but a mirror opposite, and a great story. Also thunbs up to The Dragonbone Chair (by Tad Williams) - heads up on Tad's work, his writing is voluminous. Good stories, but they will take some time to chew through.

Another thumbs up to T.H White's "Once and Future King" a modern version of the King Arthur story (don't forget the add on book "The Book of Merlyn" too.

Next (multiple) thumbs up to the Color (Colour for those across the Pond) of Magic. This is the first book in the Discworld series by the Late, Great, P.Terry (Terry Pratchett). Roughly 40 novels in this series of fantasy parody that Pratchett weaves serious thoughts into his humorous writing and you find yourself learning and growing while smiling all the way. I cannot recommend this series strongly enough. A few thoughts on the series, which is indeed, a modern day classic. It takes a few books for the writing to get off the ground. While I am a huge fan of the Discworld books, re-reading them, CoM feels a bit rough after reading his later work. IMO, the characters and world start to gel in the third book of the series, Equal Rites (start of the Witches themed books). Word to the wise, never get into a fight with Granny Esmerelda Wetherwax, and always call the Librarian by his title, or honorific, and never a, well, I won't spoil that for you.

Rodger Zelazny's Amber series (two sets of five relatively thin books) is another fascinating quest / adventure series with a unique take on reality and magic. Well worth the read.

Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea series (1st book Wizard of Earthsea) is another modern classic, relatively thin books, and relatively thin on the multitude of armies hack and slash / blizzard of spells style of fantasy, is a wonderful series of adventures centered around the Wizard, Ged. One thing I will point out is that while you may feel that this is a traditional European style fantasy, Ms. LeGuin, built her world of Earthsea as a Polynesian styled world. It does change one's internal mindset of the world knowing that.

D's choice of the Thieves world series is another good choice. A shared authors world about the town of Sanctuary, which is to fantasy as Mos Eisley is to Star Wars. Lots of fun, lots of good characters and stories. Note, that these are all short stories built into the rough structure of Sanctuary.

Since you mentioned an interest in LGBT and feminist heroes, one of the authors, Marrion Zimmer Bradley, spun off her character, the wizard Lythande, into a stand alone novel that is excellent.

Finally, Tamara's selections of The Belgariad, written by David Eddings and the Riftwar Saga by Raymond Feist, are another two excellent choices. The Belgariad (a 5-book series) has incredible just fun characters and incredible dialogue that I continue to return to and put a smile on my face. The Riftwar Saga is the start of Feist's many novels of his worlds. The first two books; Magician-Apprentice, and Magician-Master, are the best of the many and fit that Epic fantasy niche extremely well. Broad in scope, with well developed characters, sorcery, battles, swordplay, and heroism. A wonderful read. The next two books in that foursome, Silverthorn and A Darkness at Sethanon, are equally excellent and round out the initial part of the series. A companion trilogy, the Empire series, was written with Jamie Wurts, and is equally excellent, and places you in the world of the opposing force, and delves into an Asian-style fantasy world is equal in excellence. After those seven, there are another 24 novels in various series to the world. IMO, the quality of the writing begins to fall off between the 6th and 10th novels at that point.

Now, for some new ideas.

First up, is the Magicians series, by Lev Grossman. A trilogy, it is a grown up version of Harry Potter. Much darker in tone, and consequences. This was the first trilogy I read after reading the non-fiction book "How to Read Literature like a Professor", by Thomas Foster. The tropes woven into this series by Grossman hit a number of points from Foster's book in terms of classical heroic literature and from a writing craft standpoint, the stories are excellent. If you like the HP series, but wanted something with more mature themes and plots, and a different take on magic, this series is for you.

For your women warriors / fantasy ninjas / LGBT card, a comic book mini series and subsequent graphic novel, The Sisterhood of Steel. A pure swords and Sandals story (minimal magic, if any depending on how you view it). Good characters, good story.

Side note back to my earlier post on the Discworld series. Since all of the books are stand alone, you can read any slice of it that you want. There are several general character groups (The Wizards, The City Watch, The Witches - and as a subset, Tiffany Aching). While all the books are pretty excellent, The Witches, and young Ms. Aching, would check off the strong female characters list.

Another author in that vein is Patricia C. Wrede. While her stories were good and featured several strong female characters, IMO, more YA mid-teenager novels than the others mentioned.

Another two series written by a female author, is Robin Hobb. Her two main series, Assassin, and Liveship Traders are both solid series. Not your average sword and sorcery / high adventure series, but both well written, Liveship Traders has dragons galore and magic, with a female protagonist. Ah, and her third series The Fool, is another solid series.

Joel Rosenberg is another author I keep coming back to. His Guardians of the Flame series, is very fun to read. A 10-book series, I only read the first five, which focused on the main characters, the subsequent five went in different directions, and I felt satisfied at that point.

Finally, another good sword and sandals series is Harry Turtledove's Videssos series. The first four books include the "Legion" series, about a Roman Legion that gets transported to a magical world which includes the Kingdom of Videssos, great series high fantasy, lots of battles and a decent amount of magic. Well developed stories and characters. The subsequent trilogy, the Tale of Krispos, is another good read. While he wrote another five novels, I have not read those.

These and the others should keep you busy for a while. Enjoy.

Not sure I would call it a classic,

Harold wrote: "Now, for some new ideas.

First up, is the Magicians series, by Lev Grossman. A trilogy, it is a grown up version of Harry Potter. Much darker in tone, and consequences. This was the first trilogy..."

thank you for all your insight!