Constant Reader discussion

Our next story is "Nirvana" by Adam Johnson. You can find it in our anthology The Story Prize: 15 Years of Great Short Fiction. But, we also have two other online sources for it. The first one is in the UK Sunday Times here:
https://www.shortstoryaward.co.uk/awa...
The other is in Esquire magazine here: https://www.esquire.com/entertainment...

I have never read anything by Adam Johnson and didn't recognize the name but then I saw that he wrote The Orphan Master's Son which won the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction in 2013. Also, the collection that this story comes from, Fortune Smiles, won the National Book Award in 2015. There is a great interview with him in the Chicago Tribune about the collection here:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entert... He answers some specific questions about this story as well.

This felt futuristic to me, probably only because I am old and the present sometimes feels like science fiction. I know about virtual reality headsets but what was happening here were actual projections of the assassinated president and, then, Kurt Cobain. Technical people among us, are these projections along with web scouring for appropriate verbal responses to remarks or questions possible today? I know about drones but not enough to know that what it was doing is accurate to today.

I'm getting my technical questions out there early but actually as I was reading the story, they were secondary. I was impressed that Johnson could use that technical background but the suffering of both the man and his wife were not eclipsed by it. The wife's situation physically was horrifying but Johnson did a great job of bringing it home to me on an emotional level. I almost couldn't stand to read those parts and kept looking away from the print occasionally. I had no idea that Guillain-Barre Syndrome could progress to such an incapacitating level. But, throughout it all, he managed to convey an emotional intimacy between two people that was constant. Really impressive.

I wouldn't go as far as "futuristic," I'd just say it is set in the future. These details he gives are, I think, slightly beyond where we are.

The drone, of course, is a common enough thing. I believe what he adds is the glasses that allow Charlotte to control it and see what it sees. The holograms of famous people are the same, I think. I've seen a couple of stories about this new Abba hologram concert--not a fan so I don't get into them, but the fact it is happening tells me that what the storyteller did isn't a great leap. Just have a look at few deep fakes on Youtube and you'll be convinced. Just a decent programmer can take whatever public figure they like and place them anywhere, doing and saying almost anything. Isn't an interactive hologram just a hop and a skip from there? Adding in the interactive aspect would be child's play considering where we are with Siri etc.

Anyway, was he making a point, do you think, that all that stuff is zooming along at an incredible pace while, sadly, we continue to await progress on other things, like Guillain-Barre Syndrome?

No, bro. We cannot allow "End of transmission" for such a spooky and complicated story.

Death and suicide, death and suicide, and nirvana. What did you think? What did you feel? Who did you imagine as the President? And can you imagine how eager a mourning public would be to have this freshly assassinated President with them via such an app as the narrator has created? When he started seeing people in public using the app I was surprised, but it really is just how it would happen. We don't let go until we have to.

And who sent that drone in the first place?

In 1986 Jerry and I went with my sister and her husband Stan to see The Fly ( https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091064/ ). His comment afterward was "Love doesn't go that deep." (It achieved almost instant fame amongst us; I could not even guess how many times this phrase has been repeated since.)

Of course we have to discuss it. It was a horror. Her asking it, his agreeing to do it, every moment of it was awful. The idea of it was awful: I can see that it is "something to leave behind," but it is a 9 months long physical crapshoot resulting in a child they're talking about. I had to wonder if love doesn't go that deep.

Wow, Steve, my sons were big Nirvana fans back in the day. This woman can't take the headphones off and you would give her The Carpenters?!? I'm sure they would say (and I might agree) that this is cruel and unusual punishment. Pearl Jam, maybe, but not John Denver or Barry Manilow.

Seriously though, it looks like I'm the only one who bought into this story. He is there with this woman all the time. He loves her, a lot. He doesn't seem to have much interaction with anyone else except the dead president projection. It's something similar to Stockholm syndrome. It would be hard to make rational decisions after a while. He just wants to do something to make her a little bit happier, even if it's a terrible idea. I'm still a little bit in shock from just reading about how this syndrome is affecting her. Imagine living with it full time. Obviously, since he's spending his time talking to a dead president, he's not doing too well either.

Tonya, I think your idea about the comparison between the advanced technology and our inability to make progress in curing diseases like Guillain-Barre Syndrome might be dead on. In the interview that I linked above, Johnson said that part of the impetus for writing this was his wife's battle with breast cancer for two years.

It's a strange story, to say the least.

And, yet we have so much in common, Steve — Veterinarian fathers, growing up in the heart of the Midwest, same age. Actually, I am totally happy with different takes on what we’re reading here. It gets pretty boring when we all just talk about how great a piece of writing is. My note was just making a case for my reading of it. Being married to a lawyer has taught me to do that.

And, Tonya is bullying you? I can’t wait to hear her response to that.

Karen Carpenter sort of killed herself too. I don't think that is why you came up with The Carpenters, but that was my first thought. He needed to switch her to Meat Loafl lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRQ12...

Barbara wrote: "And, yet we have so much in common, Steve — Veterinarian fathers, growing up in the heart of the Midwest, same age. Actually, I am totally happy with different takes on what we’re reading here. It ..."

Steve's dad was a veterinarian too? How did I miss that? That makes three of us who are kids of vets from the Midwest.

That's what is in my memory bank. But, of course, that's not saying much these days. Was I right about that, Steve?

I am definitely planning to reread Mrs. Dalloway, Steve. I need to find our original discussion. I think I even have my original copy. I remember at the time feeling out of my depth though I've always been a great admirer of Virginia Woolf. Hopefully, 22 more years of reading will make things clearer for me.

About your dad, maybe the farming connection was what stuck with me.

Well, that makes me feel better!

Well, that'll teach me. I was brief yesterday so I could get outside (it was not so hot here), and you've all been posting with rocket fingers.

re #14: yep, I was bullying. In the first place I didn't intuit from "End of transmission" that Stephen was declining to discuss the story; to be fair I didn't bother to think at all about why he was being coy, I just wanted his thoughts on the story.

re #17: I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I wanted one with baby-face Meat Loaf, and that performance is almost 30 years old.

Looking back to #8 above, I can see 2 very obvious reasons why The Magic Shop might engage a reader and Nirvana fail: First, mood--The Magic Shop has an active feeling of things happening and wonders to come, whereas Nirvana quite effectively, IMO, sets itself in the feeling of being stuck, helpless and bordering on hopeless. That was the point to me. Second, theme--there are times for all of us when we just aren't in the mood for (whatever) topic, and Nirvana only wants to talk about death. Death and death by suicide.

The narrator wanted her to relieve him of the promise, didn't smash the drone, and didn't shut down that whole insane idea to make a baby. All true and superficially wussy (#10.) I imagine the narrator is existing right at the edge of losing all hope, and he is more comfortable stuck there than crossing that line. They are at the end point, according to her doctors, of where reversal is a possibility: This is the ninth month, a month at the edge of the medical literature. It’s a place where the doctors no longer feel qualified to tell us whether Charlotte’s nerves will begin to regenerate or whether she will be stuck like this forever. He's grasping, and each of these things are his effort to instill hope in Charlotte, because if she can exhibit even a shred of hope, it will feed the little-bitty bit that he holds. If she removes the promise or thinks ahead by 9 months to a baby, it means she believes in her recovery. He makes the drone a way for her to explore beyond her bed and headphones so she can have hope.

Honestly, I think he knows deep down that he will keep his promise without that tiny thread of hope. Even after he creates the Kurt Cobain holo, which I believe gives her a new spark, the last thing she says tells me the same: “You don’t know how special you are, you don’t know how much you matter to me,” she says, carefully, like she’s talking to a child. “Please don’t take yourself from me. You can’t do that to me.” But Kurt did, and it will be the same for Charlotte. Only he will help.

re #12: You aren't the only one who bought into the story! It was very thought provoking to me, extremely effective. It is open-ended, which can often be irritating, but as you can see in this case I have very specific feelings about how it will end. I'm not going to be able to pull specific quotes to justify my position; I just know Charlotte will not recover.

Seems like being late to read this one I've missed out on the too-ing and fro-in of this great thread.

I don't tend to like stories about illness. But I did find this one just a little enchanting - where else would you find Kurt Cobain, Guillain-Barré and drones in the same story. Did Johnson draw the short straw in the writing group exercise! On the other hand the geek in the story is a romantic at heart, he adapts the drone for her so she can go see her roses but even more so he makes his wife a KC substitute, inevitably called an iProjection.
One question - were we supposed to recognise which president it was by the quotes?

This story won the Sunday Times Short Story Prize back in 2014 https://www.shortstoryaward.co.uk/awa...

Thank you, Stephen, you really are such a charmer! Try as you may to be a grumpy old man, you can't escape that you're a natural born charmer! This narrator can't escape his nature either, he's 1.) a tech nerd, and 2.) a romantic.

Sheila, I asked early on "Who do you imagine as the President?" because I got a specific picture in my brain as I read it. First, "were we supposed to recognise which president it was by the quotes," no. This was set in the future; no one would associate his words with any current politician. All the President's quotes are just so carefully neutral and anodyne anyway, right? Believable of a typical American politician. Anyone or no one might fill that space, and for me it was surprising and extremely goofy: an actor named Dennis Haysbert, as he appeared in the 1st season of a tv show called 24, playing President Palmer. That's from 2001! Crazy.

Also, I love, love, love how you envisioned the story like a Chopped-style writing exercise! (Assuming you have seen Chopped: https://www.foodnetwork.com/shows/cho... ) Do they really do that?

I didn't think the wife would recover either, Tonya, and I think you nailed it with this summary: "I imagine the narrator is existing right at the edge of losing all hope, and he is more comfortable stuck there than crossing that line. " They are in a sort of purgatory together which he is trying to survive. But, what kept striking me was the tenderness of the narrator's feelings toward his wife. Caring for someone who is inevitably dying does not make you automatically patient and emotionally available. Though he wasn't making great decisions, he was both of those things to a surprising extent.

Sheila, I kept thinking that the president was an Obama-like character. This collection was published in 2015 while he was still president so it's not like the longing that I had for him after Trump was elected. But, maybe it's an anticipation of those feelings.

Steve, yes, I have noticed that it's often hard for me to articulate why I don't like certain fiction writing. I have that problem with George Saunders though Lincoln in the Bardo knocked me out. Gary Shteyngart is another one who always leaves me feeling vaguely irritated but unable to adequately express the reasons.

Hi Barb, maybe it is a quality of his emotion which convinced me that when the chips fall (sorta happy we agree the chips will fall!) he will honor that promise? Even if by then he has achieved a retraction. It is something I feel he knows about himself, maybe without realizing it, and it is the reason he is so focused on conjuring up some hope, right? Like I said, I can't back it up with anything he put into the story.

Trying to figure out if I find it difficult to articulate just why I dislike something... truth is I normally move on quickly enough that it just can't happen--there isn't time and I'm not willing to think about it that much. But remembering here specifically The Underground Railroad since I actually finished that book, I can say my reaction was almost exactly the same as Stephen: I maybe posted that I was not fond of the book? Maybe. What I am certain of is that I never read or participated in the discussion because I wasn't interested. I moved on. Typically I'd have returned a book to the library less than half read if I had that reaction to it, but that was a list book so I did keep hoping for a connection; in the end my feelings didn't change.

I remember shortly after that we read Exit West, which is one of the more memorable and well-regarded books of my life, and it was hard not to wonder if I was giving it extra credit for achieving what Underground failed to.

I'm late to the party, as usual with these short stories.

First, this story is set in Palo Alto, but mentions Mtn. View (next city over) a couple of times. I grew up in Mtn. View and this is the first time I have ever seen it referenced in a work of fiction.

But, I digress. Partly because I'm not sure what to say about this story, other than that I liked it, a lot. There goes your theory on that, Barb. I liked it but can't really say why.

I think that "I want to get pregnant" was maybe a ploy. She wanted an interaction where she was not the patient or being physically manipulated in order to be cared for. This was her chance to call the shots and make her partner move, so to speak.

I think the story is also about technology as a substitute for interacting with the world and others in our own physical capacity. Even a totally paralyzed person can use a drone to "see" her roses; and avatars can let us "interact" with the dead, or a version of the dead.

Theresa

Late is fine, Theresa. Just happy you arrived. Interesting idea about her reasons for saying that she wanted to get pregnant. I think you're right and it didn't occur to me. Also, good point about the uses of technology. I tend to find it intrusive frequently but it has been a godsend for some of the physically disabled people that I taught in my career. Also, I am very skeptical about driverless cars but they will provide mobility for people who otherwise wouldn't have it.

Tonya, you and I had similar reactions to Underground Railroad and Exit West. I actually gave the former 4 stars in my review for the writing on a sentence by sentence level but something about it bothered me. However, I loved Exit West.

Theresa! So glad you dropped by!

And I guess shame on me for not thinking about why she asked him to do it, the idea was off-putting enough that pondering how he got thru it was the limit of my consideration. I do believe you are right. It surely works with my overall interpretation of this story.

I think the story is also about technology as a substitute for interacting with the world and others in our own physical capacity.
To some extent that might play into it, but for me it was more the death thing. This story is all about attitudes regarding death; reaction to the possibility (or probability), accepting the inevitability of it, dealing with the void it creates, etc. Using the technology was just a handy way to get there IMO.