Reading the Detectives discussion

Welcome to our July 22 Challenge Title: The Red Thumb Mark first published in 1907 and the first in the Dr Thorndyke series.

R. Austin Freeman (1862–1943) was an author of detective stories. A pioneer of the inverted detective story, in which the reader knows from the start who committed the crime, Freeman is best known as the creator of the "medical jurispractitioner" Dr. John Thorndyke. First introduced in The Red Thumb Mark (1907), the brilliant forensic investigator went on to star in dozens of novels and short stories .

Originally written in 1907, "The Red Thumb Mark" opens the series by R. Austin Freeman featuring Dr. Thorndyke. A single fingerprint is found at the scene of a crime. When the police are able to identify that fingerprint, the case seems closed. But Dr. Thorndyke, the detective/barrister/medical doctor who takes on defense of this suspect, thinks he can disprove the prosecution's case, based on that same fingerprint. It does not take Dr. Thorndyke to figure out who the criminal is. It is up to Dr. John Thorndyke, and his new assistant Dr. Jervis to prove the young man's innocence before he's found guilty and hanged.

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

Although the actual thief was pretty obvious quite early in the story, the setting and the science were very interesting. Most of the characters were as you would imagine them to be at this time, which I found to be an enjoyable ride through the book.

Agree with Jill, but I wasn’t as much a fan of the somewhat endless scientific explanations. But it was more fun and exciting than I thought it would be, especially when our two heroes were walking home from the train, late at night, and the courtroom climax!

I liked the writing but agree that the plot was pretty thin as the culprit was obvious pretty much from the start.

Did anyone else get strong Holmes and Watson vibes - right down to the romance?

I glazed over at the 'science', especially the bullet-syringe thingy. But the courtroom drama was an unexpected bonus. And I'd read another Thorndyke as this one definitely had that start-of-series feeling and I'd hope the plotting improves.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I liked the writing but agree that the plot was pretty thin as the culprit was obvious pretty much from the start.

Did anyone else get strong Holmes and Watson vibes - right down to the romance?

..."

Yes, on both the Holmes and Watson vibes, and the zoning out on the science explanations!

I’d also be willing to read another Thorndyke.

I agree with the general view here, although I enjoyed some of the more forensic bits more than most, I think - possibly because I'm a scientist by training.

By chance, I read this at the start of this year just before I joined this group. My review, if anyone's interested:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Once again, I agree with your points. It seemed obvious early on who the murderer was, but I did suspect Juliet because she is to whom Jervis kept talking about vital stuff. The scientific stuff was boring to me, and I skimmed through those sections. I disliked the constant repetitions such as the repeated oaths in court and Thorndyke's many lectures. Jervis came across as remarkably dumb, but Polton was an intriguing character. I wondered about Polton's background.

RC, I definitely also got Holmes and Watson vibes, and Chris, I also suspected Juliet!

I found the scientific explanations quite intriguing even though I couldn't always follow them, but I was left wondering whether it would really be possible to fake a fingerprint in this way.

The Thumbograph was a real thing - there is a photo of one in this (not all that positive) review from the Cross Examining Crime blog:
https://crossexaminingcrime.wordpress...

I suppose it was a variant on the autograph book, but it's not as entertaining to see people's thumb prints as to read their comments and mini poems.

I loved the Thumbograph! It gave a real sense of how exotic and fascinating this new scientific development was to the general public.

I liked this book a lot, even the technical explanations, which surprised me as I didn't like the Thorndyke story in Capital Crimes (notes now lost so no idea why). I think the Sherlock Holmes vibe was so strong that Freeman could have been sued today. Thorndyke is a much more genial version with a sense of humor and human emotions.

I agree the thief was obvious from the start but that really didn't seem to be the point of the story. It was more how could they prove Rueben innocent. Like Judy I wonder if it is actually possible to fake a fingerprint.

I thought the romance was fine and allowed Freeman to show Thorndyke's perceptiveness. The wife was a wonderful character. I liked all her appearances and her time on the witness stand was a treat.

Sandy, I've just done a bit of Googling and it sounds as if the method described is probably possible, as apparently Freeman used to try the forensic science methods in his books out himself.

I found a book called A History of Forensic Science: British beginnings in the twentieth century by Alison Adam on Google Books (I have just looked at an extract), which says:
"Freeman tried out the forensic techniques which appeared in the Thorndyke stories, even to the extent of using some of his own photographs of trace 'evidence' " - she says this is why the science in these books is much more detailed than in Holmes, specifically mentioning The Red Thumb Mark and comparing it with a Holmes story.

Sid, sorry, I thought I'd already posted this! Just to say I enjoyed your review and really liked the bit of wording you picked out as an example of the writing style.

Judy wrote: "Sid, sorry, I thought I'd already posted this! Just to say I enjoyed your review and really liked the bit of wording you picked out as an example of the writing style."

Why thank you, kind lady. 😊

I really liked this, and yes, Holmes and Watson! :) I also liked the technical explanations, but was no big fan of the romance.
I also wondered whether the real culprit Walter would be convicted, which could of course not happen in the trial against Reuben.

I think they'll get Walter on the attempt on Thorndyke's life with the poisoned cigar, if he doesn't break down and confess all - he didn't look as if he was up to a resolute defence.

I just finished it, and did skip a lot of the technical stuff by the end, just appreciating that Thorndyke had brilliantly proved his points. It was fairly clear from the start who the real culprit was.

Great points, Michaela and Rosina - it hadn't struck me that we don't find out what happens to Walter. I would definitely think/hope that he ends up being convicted, at least for the cigar, as you say, Rosina.

Judy wrote: "Sandy, I've just done a bit of Googling and it sounds as if the method described is probably possible, as apparently Freeman used to try the forensic science methods in his books out himself.

I fo..."

I'm impressed that Freeman tested all his methods. No wonder he wanted to include all the technical details.

Judy wrote: "The Thumbograph was a real thing - there is a photo of one in this (not all that positive) review from the Cross Examining Crime blog:
https://crossexaminingcrime.wordpress......"

That’s what it sounded like to me, an autograph book! But not for celebrities or athletes, for your friends and acquaintances. I can’t see the interest of the thumb prints as much as the personal notes or comments, as you say. Thanks for the link!

Sandy wrote: "I liked this book a lot, even the technical explanations, which surprised me as I didn't like the Thorndyke story in Capital Crimes (notes now lost so no idea why). I think the Sherlock Holmes vibe..."

Sandy, you summed up all my thoughts on the book perfectly! I, too, never warmed to the Sherlock stories, and found Thorndyke much more warm and appealing - I didn’t enjoy the short stories I’ve read, too much of the technical explanations, not enough room to know the characters. They were written later than this debut, after the stories had become popular, and felt like the author was just filling public demand for his particular type of forensic story.

This debut gave us a chance to meet Thorndyke and his associates, was an adventure story and a courtroom drama as well – and a little hint of romance, which was rather sweet. Overall I enjoyed it and would like to read another Thorndyke full-length book.

Judy wrote: "Great points, Michaela and Rosina - it hadn't struck me that we don't find out what happens to Walter. I would definitely think/hope that he ends up being convicted, at least for the cigar, as you ..."

I assumed he would be arrested as the policeman followed him out of the courtroom.

I’ve just finished - I liked the scientific investigations, and the way Thorndyke demolished the ‘experts’. There was a lot of humour, especially the aunt and Thorndyke’s assistant - larger than life characters without being unconvincing.

I was really hoping that Juliet was in it with Walter, partly because he was so obviously the villain, and partly because I found the romance a bit too sickly sweet for my taste. Great fun overall though.

Susan in NC wrote: "That’s what it sounded like to me, an autograph book! But not for celebrities or athletes, for your friends and acquaintances. "

Some people did use them for athletes - this page (http://www.rugbyrelics.com/Museum/exh...) has an article about a collection of rugby union player thumbprints collected by a young woman early twentieth century. They mention near the end that as there are some blank pages left at the end of the album, they intend to add notable modern players to the collection.

Definitely a Holmes/Watson vibe going on, but I did like the shade Freemen threw on Doyle, with his mocking of Holmes' deductive reasoning :-)

Finished it last night. Thought it was just okay. The villain was so obvious I thought maybe he was really going to throw in a surprise. But he didn't. I didn't like the portrayal of either lady. To much wringing of hands.

I found the science and method of committing the crime fascinating, but didn't like the whole very obvious "super-sleuth and sidekick" format. I have read The Murders in the Rue Morgue - a C. Auguste Dupin Short Story, The Sign of Four and this one in July, and my tolerance for the trope is running low.

My tolerance for the trope ran out after the last short story collection we read as a group - it seemed most of the earlier stories used it! I guess there are always publishing trends, they all want to give the readers what they’re looking for…having said that, I wasn’t expecting to like this as much as I did, I appreciated the bits of adventure (the scary walk home from the train), humor and romance. I was afraid it was going to be one long forensic lecture!

What I liked about the book was learning about the existence of thumbographs haha must have been such fun at dinner parties. I also love that The World Rugby Museum has an online exhibition of some of the thumb prints of then-famous rugby players: http://www.rugbyrelics.com/Museum/exh...

Oh wow, thank you for posting the link to the thumbograph exhibition, Jessica. It's easy to see why this went out of fashion!

Indeed - but there's something rather wonderful about it, too. Thanks from me too, Jessica; I'm glad to have seen that.

I've just read this.

Wow, Freeman doesn't use one sentence when ten will do! It's well written, but I think this would have worked better pruned into a novella.

Thanks for the link in #9, Judy - I couldn't visualise the thumbograph at all!

Victorian authors often serialized stories for magazines, correct? Many writers of the era give a paid-by-word count vibe. Verbosity was popular, apparently! ;)

Susan in NC wrote: "Victorian authors often serialized stories for magazines, correct? Many writers of the era give a paid-by-word count vibe. Verbosity was popular, apparently! ;)"

That would be an explanation!

Or they were taking part in National Novel Writing Month and wanted to get to 50,000 words in a month!