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Eisenhower in War and Peace
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WE ARE OPEN - WEEK FOUR - EISENHOWER IN WAR AND PEACE - February 23rd ~ March 1st - CHAPTER(S) FOUR and FIVE - With Pershing in Paris and With MacArthur in Washington (74 - 118) No-Spoilers
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However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.
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The fourth week’s reading assignment is:
Week Four - February 23rd, 2015 to March 1st, 2015
Chapter(s) Four and Five: Four and Five: With Pershing in Paris and With MacArthur in Washington - pages 74 - 118
Chapter Overview and Summary
Chapter 4: With Pershing in Paris
Eisenhower is assigned to a less than stellar post and does his best with the help of others to wrangle another. Mamie's quote is quite apropos to Ike's career.
No man can make a successful career on his own. He needs help.
— Mamie Eisenhower
Chapter 5: With MacArthur in Washington
Eisenhower viewed MacArthur with awe and admiration and nobody did more for Eisenhower than MacArthur. This chapter discusses Eisenhower's time with the general.
This officer has no superior of his age and grade. — General Douglas Macarthur on Eisenhower’s Efficiency Report, June 30, 1933
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The author Jean Edward Smith writes:
"When Eisenhower completed the course at the Command and General Staff School, he was pulled three ways. The adjutant general proposed to send him to a major university as the professor of military science and tactics, heading the ROTC program. In addition, it was arranged that Ike would coach the university’s football team at a salary of $3,500 - roughly doubling his take-home pay. The commandant at CGSS wanted him to remain at Leavenworth on the faculty, a sure ticket to an eventual general staff billet. And the chief of infantry thought Ike needed more troop duty. The chief of infantry prevailed. Eisenhower was appointed executive officer of the 24th Infantry Regiment at Fort Benning.
In retrospect, it is evident that the office of the chief of infantry resented Eisenhower’s end run around it to attend the CGSS. Political correctness aside, assignment to the 24th Infantry - the Old Deuce-Four - was scarcely a career-enhancing move. Like the 10th Cavalry, the 24th was an all-black regiment commanded by white officers, few of whom relished their posting. The was the segregated Army, and black units, despite a glorious heritage tracing to the Civil War, were regarded as second-class. The 24th had been founded in 1866, fought with distinction at San Juan Hill and in the Philippines, and marched with Pershing against Pancho Villa. But it sat out World War I, had not been ordered to France, and was currently employed as support troops for the Infantry School at Fort Benning. It was the infantry’s Siberia.
In his memoirs Eisenhower does not mention that the 24th Infantry was a black unit, and his early biographers were apparently unaware of the fact. Nevertheless, it is manifest that Ike was unhappy with the assignment and used his influence to wriggle out. A permanent change of station in the peacetime Army normally involved a three-year posting. Ike stayed at Benning less than five months."
Topics for Discussion:
1. Once again Ike finds himself in the unenviable position of being placed in a less than stellar assignment and being unhappy with the career assignments made by others which he had to live with. Why do you think that Ike was placed at Benning? Do you agree with the author that this was retaliation?
2. How political and cut throat were/are military politics? Were certain West Point graduates placed on a fast track while others cast aside to just languish in dead end posts? Is it like this still today or worse?
3. Of the options that were originally presented to him as choices - if in fact Ike really had any choices - which option would have been better for Eisenhower and his career?
4. It is probably hard to imagine the segregated troop set up during Ike's tenure and really into World War II and beyond but that was the way the country looked at things during this period. How did you feel when you read this passage and learned how this group (though they distinguished themselves) was still viewed as second class by their country due to their color and that leading these men and this post were considered a less than optimal assignment and obvious pay back? Ike certainly did not like the assignment either and most assuredly did his best to shake it off. What was the tone of the country at this period of time in our history towards African Americans in the military? Remember the year was 1926!
5. What was the country like in 1926? What were the events that would shape the history of the US in that decade?
6. Do you think that Ike was lucky or unlucky with his military career up to that point? And who were Eisenhower's mentors? Who was going to come to Ike's rescue?
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So check it out.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
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If you have articles, news articles, or videos or photos that you want to add - the glossary is the best place. There is no self promotion.
Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed. Since we are discussing the same time period and the same people will be discussed in this book as in the Liberation Trilogy - please utilize those three glossary parts. They will be very helpful to you and will provide a wealth of knowledge.
This is the glossary for this book: (Eisenhower in War and Peace)
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
However, we have an in depth glossary for the Second World War period:
Glossary - Part One - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...
Glossary - Part Two - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Glossary - Part Three - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
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History
The Beaux-Arts luxury apartment building was designed by B. Stanley Simmons, for Lester A. Barr. The building has two wings: The first was built in 1905, and the second wing was constructed in 1911 In 1982, Barr's grandson sold the building for $6.3 million to developers, who converted it to condominiums.
The building is composed of 106 apartments, 76 in the South Wing and 30 in the North Wing. Betty Friedan, George Stephanopoulos, Christopher Hitchens and Dwight D. Eisenhower lived there.
The Wyoming is listed on the National Register of Historic Places, and is a contributing property to the Washington Heights Historic District.
https://whyroaming.wordpress.com
It is a good opportunity for Ike to work on the monuments commission. He really gets deeply involved on the history and concepts of U.S. forces in WW1.
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I enjoyed these chapters, more for personal reasons (my brush with greatness?) as they mention one of my husband's ancestors (John Nance Garner) and the War, Navy, State building (another ancestor of his was the interior architect of this building - Richard Von Ezdorf). The War, Navy State building is now the Executive offices of the Vice President. Although it was built about 10 years before the Wyoming, the designs are very similar. I love the architecture of this time period.These chapters take place during the time of prohibition, but it didn't seem to curtail any entertaining. I liked the reference to Mamie organizing "Club Eisenhower". I enjoyed reading about their day to day life both in Paris and Washington DC. I smiled when she mentioned that they didn't talk about his work and she didn't mention that the dishwasher went out.
I don't think I would consider that Ike was lucky in his military career. He was good at what he did and he was smart to connect with MacArthur, Pershing and Connor. He obviously was enamored of MacArthur and Fox Connor and General Moseley were certainly good for his career.
The one thing that I had not thought about in this time frame was the the racial issues that were going on and was surprised to read about Moseley and his views. Was glad to read that Eisenhower did not share his views.
Mod
They seemed to have detente in terms of their duties on their side of the fence (Mamie and Ike) - no it looked like things were in swing at Congress - maybe deliveries of bourbon would help them out (lol) - Ice tea and coffee doesn't seem to be working.
All three of them really helped him tremendously. Fox Conner to me seemed like a father figure.
Moseley seemed a bit extreme I have to admit but you know there were tons of folks during this time period who did not think that was out of the ordinary. It is good that things have gotten better and hopefully will continue to do so.
Indeed, Bentley, a father figure and mentor. Conner was a major factor in his life.
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In these two chapters, Mamie finally gets a chance to enjoy her husband's career, both in Washington and Paris.What a fabulous time to be in Paris with the French franc valued at 25(or more) francs to the dollar as opposed to the more normal 5 to the dollar! I was surprised to read that the French "economy flourished"(p. 84) since a devalued currency often indicates economic trouble.
Smith notes that Mamie continued to received $100 a month, while her husband's take-home pay was just $391. (p. 77) This was a very considerable amount.
Patton, MacArthur, and Fox Connor all married very wealthy women.
Was it very difficult to make it on the current military pay, even for high ranking officers, if you didn't have outside income?
I can certainly understand why Eisenhower was so valued by his mentors. The man worked night and day, to the extent that his physical health (stomach and back problems) was affected. (p. 101) He was lucky to find these men, but he deserved their confidence and help.Eisenhower himself seems to have been a straight arrow workaholic, but he was surrounded by colorful military superiors. I think these mini-portraits are one of the main things that makes this book so interesting.
I can just see MacArthur sitting in his Japanese Kimono and rushing home to have a long lunch with his mother every day. Oh yes - then there was the beautiful Filipino mistress that he didn't want Mom to find our about.
Mosley's virulent racism makes me sick. I realize that antisemitism was widespread in the State Department as well as the military, but insisting that Jewish refugees be sterilized before they get off the boat (p.93) brings antisemitism to a whole other racist level.
I was shocked to read (note, p. 96): "The racist theology of eugenicist Charles Davenport was standard feature of the curriculum at the Army War College, and nations were ranked according to their Nordic homogeneity."
I don't want to jump too far ahead and we want to be careful about spoilers, but do you see a parallel with Ike's reaction to handling Mosley's racist attitudes and Senator McCarthy's Red Scare?
A couple of very interesting chapters. I am also glad that Mamie got to have her social gatherings and shopping in both Paris and Washington. What a fascinating assignment for Ike in France! Going to all those battlefields and studying the small towns and roads, learning the language and meeting the people... what a great job!It was very interesting to learn of the Bonus Army and their camping out in Washington to demand their bonuses. Kind of reminds me of the Occupy Wall Street movements. What an impressive showing they had. I wonder if any other protest produced the numbers that one did. Of course being broke and out of work certainly help draw people to show up to put some pressure on. At first I was surprised at how they were treated by the Army and the president, but then again, not really. I wish there was more concrete evidence of Ike's feelings, but too bad he tried to expunge the record.
Bryan,I don't know much about Ike and McCarthy, but I'll keep that question in mind when we get to that part of the book. It sounds intriguing.
Maureen,I was really surprised that MacArthur intentionally disobeyed Hoover's orders not to clear out that park. I wonder if he suffered repercussions.
Ike knew what he was told and apparently those above him chose to believe the wild rumors about Communists leading the Bonus Army and passed that info on.
The people camping in the parks really were desperate Half of the "Army" dispersed soon after after Congress refused to give into their demands, so it wasn't a growing movement. Two people were killed in the confrontation, many were subjected to tear gas, and their belongings were destroyed. In retrospect, I think the press was right to question what happened.
Bryan wrote: "I don't want to jump too far ahead and we want to be careful about spoilers, but do you see a parallel with Ike's reaction to handling Mosley's racist attitudes and Senator McCarthy's Red Scare?"Brian - that thought crossed my mind when I read this chapter. It's very interesting to see the typical party ideology in retrospect.
I enjoyed this chapter and Ike's involvement with the monuments commission as first discussed by Bryan. I also agree that it helped lay the foundation of Ike's strategic initiatives for his involvement in WWII. It was also nice to see Mamie get to enjoy her career as a military wife. I believe if she had the option she may have stayed in Paris permanently but knew she had to follow her husband.
In retrospect, all of Ike's assignments were character building and life forming experiences for him. His resume was deep. He had sought and cultivate relationships with key mentors. His assignment under Mosley proved he was tolerant of others with different beliefs, and still coexist under a chain of command.
Mod
I believe for some in the US at that time, it was out in the open. That belief system was also in the same time frame when women's right to vote was just being changed, for example. As for Ike, it is not clear (so far) when his views changed or at all; I can only speculate that his West Point years provided him with many perspectives.
Mod
I was disappointed to discover that the all black regiments were viewed as second class citizens but not really surprised. In 1926, America was very segregated and many people probably were not comfortable with blacks in the army.
Mod
Indeed, Steve, the rampant racism spread throughout society, regardless of how effective the black regiments were and they were.
1. Once again Ike finds himself in the unenviable position of being placed in a less than stellar assignment and being unhappy with the career assignments made by others which he had to live with. Why do you think that Ike was placed at Benning? Do you agree with the author that this was retaliation?I honestly can’t say whether this move was retaliation or not. Could it just have been that the 24th was starved for qualified officers? I tried looking for the source where Mr. Smith got this accusation, but I couldn’t tell from his Notes section. So, I honestly have no opinion about why Ike got sent here.
2. How political and cut throat were/are military politics? Were certain West Point graduates placed on a fast track while others cast aside to just languish in dead end posts? Is it like this still today or worse?
I can’t speak to whether it is better or worse today, but I still think that in any career, even the military, it’s not just what you know, but who you know. Ike knew the right people, which is why he could get good jobs or be rescued from bad ones when he needed to.
3. Of the options that were originally presented to him as choices - if in fact Ike really had any choices - which option would have been better for Eisenhower and his career?
I think the first option, being sent to a major university for the army’s ROTC program, might have been the best move. It is clear even from this time Ike had quite the knack for scholastics and for coaching. Thus, being sent to a university program would have fit Ike and his strengths during this period of his life.
4. It is probably hard to imagine the segregated troop set up during Ike's tenure and really into World War II and beyond but that was the way the country looked at things during this period. How did you feel when you read this passage and learned how this group (though they distinguished themselves) was still viewed as second class by their country due to their color and that leading these men and this post were considered a less than optimal assignment and obvious pay back? Ike certainly did not like the assignment either and most assuredly did his best to shake it off. What was the tone of the country at this period of time in our history towards African Americans in the military? Remember the year was 1926!
I honestly felt that this was a dark period in the history of the country as a whole and the army in particular. As I recall, the 1920s were a time of the greatest number of lynchings of African-Americans since Reconstruction and the KKK was a political force to be reckoned with. The fact that our country could be so committed to segregation in so many of its institutions, but especially the army, is quite disgusting.
5. What was the country like in 1926? What were the events that would shape the history of the US in that decade?
As I mentioned before, this was a period of great racial violence against African-Americans and the zenith of the KKK’s influence and power across the country. It was also the time of Prohibition and the illegal buying and selling of alcohol would fuel crime throughout the decade. Not to mention the Teapot Dome scandal, the largest instance of political corruption prior to Watergate, happened during this period. Yet while the country was taking a dark turn domestically, America’s international influence was growing during this period as people like Herbert Hoover helped to rebuild Europe after WWI, the Kellog-Briand Pact would be the first serious arms limitation treaty ever and the League of Nations was going strong in spite of the absence of the U.S. Of course, fascism had taken hold of Italy during this time and Hitler and Nazism was making its slow climb to power in Germany at the same time too.
6. Do you think that Ike was lucky or unlucky with his military career up to that point? And who were Eisenhower's mentors? Who was going to come to Ike's rescue?
As this question implies and as I’ve stated in previous weeks, Ike wasn’t lucky. He just knew and ingratiated himself with the right people. And it is clear that Fox Conner, who had helped his career up to this point, would help him out again. Without knowing to much about Ike’s career prior to WWII, I wonder how long this is going to last before Ike is going to have to make his own path in his career.
Thanks Christopher. Ike's career also illustrates it is who you know and not what you know. You made some great connections...one of the biggest was Pershing.
I did not know that the army had a low voter turn-out, which is much different than today. Your thoughts?
Sorry to be so far behind but hopefully catching up.An apology – I bought this book on Kindle in the hope (didn’t work out) that I would read it on my recent vacation. As a result I have no page numbers – sorry.
These two chapters made me note several things, which I will remark upon even though some of you, my fellow readers, have already commented on.
As an observation I note now that it seems that Ike’s abilities and industry are being noticed by more and more of his superiors and I think we should realize that these facets of Ike are the reasons he could forge the friendships and supports that seem to regularly help him along.
The short assignment to the 24th, the black regiment – and his desire to get out – the “dead end” attitude reflects the values of the times I think. Not only would Ike have not enhanced his career path but likely he would not have been able to succeed with much to ameliorate the situation and if he did what disapproval that might have brought, not directly or immediately, from men like Moseley?
I was curious about A Guide to American Battlefields in Europe and looked to see if it was available on Amazon. Only indirectly in used editions. Also the author credit is not Ike but rather the Monuments Commission. What was enlightening was the number of books crediting Ike as author. I am curious is anyone knows if he wrote in collaboration with a writer? He looks to be close to a Churchill in volumes (maybe not) but I note that it was mentioned that he did not write with the “style” of Grant. If the HBC did not keep me so busy I might one day get to Grant’s memoirs.
That Ike was the youngest in the War College is again recognition of his abilities I think.
Ah Paris. Always more to learn – I never knew that Paris was so “cheap” in the 1920s probably explaining a bit the presence of the Hemingways, Picassos and others there. So it increases my knowledge of a city I have been to between 50 & 100 times and makes me want to go back soon.
Some of the quotes are interesting about the French losses in WW I –
“one in ten Parisian conscripts never returned” - “1.3 million French dead” – “three million wounded or disabled”. A French friend of mine once told me that (this fellow is young 60s now) after what was suffered in WWI after the bypassing of the Maginot Line the French did not really want to fight the Germans in WWII. Just a remark that might be found of interest by you.
The other thing I noted was that for a fellow that said he pretty much avoided politics during his military years Ike sure took notice of the less structured French politics. That this might have been one of the foundations for his eventual support of DeGaulle is interesting. I think that if Ike had not supported DeGaulle his “Free French” in WW II might have been far less powerful and important. And without that would the French have a permanent seat on the UN General Assembly etc. After all Vichy France was virtually an ally of the Axis. Maybe we would not have had such trouble to have France in NATO. Maybe Canada would have been happier without a DeGaulle to go to Quebec City and say “Viva Libre Quebec” – anyway I ramble.
In Chapter Five I have to wonder about Eisenhower’s strong respect for Moseley. Brian says in msg. 25 that Eisenhower was tolerant of other views. But Steve in msg. 29 and Christopher in msg 32 express more their frustration or unhappiness with this if I understand their thoughts correctly. I sadly think this is another point at which we have to realize how recently we have had racism as a factor in our country. It is be interesting if we could know if Ike and his siblings were brought up to believe that blacks were equal in either ability or humanity. The same is likely for many or most Americans towards Jews. But I think if Ike, and others, wanted to stay and succeed in the halls of power in America – governmental, industrial or military – I think there must have been a lot of biting of one’s tongue.
Regarding Ike’s health I have been wondering through much of this book when he got his exercise. I would be curious if the field grade officers were subject to any stringent physical fitness testing in those years. So maybe I understand his health problems.
I also found the bonus marchers a bad indicator of personal integrity and/or values of the military and administration involved. These fellows had fought under many of these officers a decade before. The incident that led to calling out all the troops had only resulted in two of the protesters being shot. MacArthur’s moving against orders and the comments of Patton, Truscott and others shows maybe a frustration to do something of military action by this peacetime army. To me no glory in going after unarmed men and women with horses, bayonets and tanks.
I would also make a little observation from my point of view towards Maureen’s comment in Msg 20 with her comparison to OWS. These fellows were asking for something that the Congress had legislated for them – just asking for it earlier. The OWS folks initially did not indicate what would make them go home – what they wanted. The OWS folks did not fight in a war etc.
Just observations – thanks again for all your comments.
PS - there is no link here for A Guide to American Battlefields in Europe (could it be because Amazon cannot sell it?)
Thanks Vince. I liked your comment on exercise...good question. I'm not sure they had testing.I agree about the Bonus Army, just on PR alone, it was a bad, bad move.
Here is another link to Grant:
by
Ulysses S. Grant
Vince wrote: "Sorry to be so far behind but hopefully catching up.An apology – I bought this book on Kindle in the hope (didn’t work out) that I would read it on my recent vacation. As a result I have no page..."
Thanks
That Grant book is on my list...........
HBC keeps me too, or so, busy
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Personal Memoirs (other topics)Personal Memoirs of U.S. Grant Volume 2 (other topics)
Eisenhower in War and Peace (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Ulysses S. Grant (other topics)Ulysses S. Grant (other topics)
Jean Edward Smith (other topics)
For the week of February 23rd through March 1st we are reading CHAPTER(S) 4 and 5: With Pershing in Paris and With MacArthur in Washington - pages 74 - 118 of the book - Eisenhower in War and Peace by Jean Edward Smith.
The fourth week's reading assignment is:
Week Four -> CHAPTER(S) Four and Five: With Pershing in Paris and With MacArthur in Washington - p. 74 - 118 - (February 23, 2015 - March 1, 2015)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on February 2nd
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.
This weekly thread will be opened up on February 23rd.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Kathy and Teri.
Welcome,
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TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
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Introduction Thread:
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Table of Contents and Syllabus
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Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed. Since we are discussing the same time period and the same people will be discussed in this book as in the Liberation Trilogy - please utilize those three glossary parts. They will be very helpful to you and will provide a wealth of knowledge.
This is the glossary for this book:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
However, we have an in depth glossary for the Second World War period:
Glossary - Part One - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...
Glossary - Part Two - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Glossary - Part Three - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Bibliography
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.
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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
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