Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

Oedipus Rex by Sophocles is our August 2022 Short Story/Novella Read.

This discussion will open on August 1

Beware Short Story Discussions will have Spoilers

This is my first read of anything by Sophocles. It very much put me in the mind of CANDIDE.

The most pressing subject I'm hoping to explore is that of Jocasta as a mother and wife. (view spoiler)[What do you all think about her initial decision to sacrifice her first-born child for herself and her husband? What motivated her suicide -- actual shock and self-disgust, or fear of facing the community after the truth is found out? (hide spoiler)]

CHERYL wrote: "The most pressing subject I'm hoping to explore is that of Jocasta as a mother and wife. "

Does Jocaste even have agency in this play? i.e. is any action or decision her own (view spoiler)[apart from her suicide (hide spoiler)] ?

sabagrey wrote:
Does Jocaste even have agency in this play? i.e. is any action or decision her own [spoile..."

I went back to the passage where Jocasta describes Laius's actions after the prophecy of his death is given. I made the mistake of inferring that she had an active role in the decision to kill Oedipus. Around Line 718 she says --

"But three days had not passed from the child's birth
When Laius pierced and tied together his ankles,
And cast him by others' hands on a pathless mountain."

Another point about her character - she mocks the reliability of the gods and their prophets, but as the truth is being uncovered she goes to make an offering to Apollo. Line 911, L977

Also, she definitely figured out who Oedipus was before he did. "Don't by the gods, investigate this more
If you care for your own life. I am sick enough."

I like to wonder how she would have behaved, in her day to day interactions with Oedipus and her children, if the play ended with her being the only one with the knowledge of their relationship.

It was surprising that Jocaste remained supportive of her husband through out his journey to figure out who he was. Her emotional response was very repressed. As you mentioned she did figure out who he was before he did. Yet the moment of revelation for her was not shock or horror. I was very surprised by that moment. And impressed with her strength.

Wendy wrote: "It was surprising that Jocaste remained supportive of her husband...Yet the moment of revelation for her was not shock or horror. I was very surprised by that moment. And impressed with her strength."

I pretty much agree with you, and think that you and I are wondering about the same alternate reality for this play. Regarding what actually happened though, I feel that Jocasta *did* in fact succumb to the shock and horror. But - only bc the truth was made known.

So, what if Oedipus had stopped his truth-seeking journey, as Jocasta plead for him to do? I think they would have basically gone on as they were before, perhaps (and hopefully) with Jocasta ending sexual contact. Although the prophecy came true and her first husband was dead, don't you think she would have been happy to go on with all of her children now residing in her household? (I know this thought isn't worth an in-depth analysis, but I'm stuck on this particular "if/then" scenario!)

I got this book Greek Drama from the library bc I am not familiar with Greek plays. The only essay I read is "Ancient Greek Drama is Still Relevant" by Karelisa V. Hartigan. Here are two highlights from her work -

The American audience came to realize the events described in Sophocles' play have little to do with the drama's meaning, that the power of this first, and, to some minds, greatest, detective story lies in Oedipus' relentless quest for the truth, a truth that brings him to realize his own identity. Post-Freudian society understood the value of facing the darkest fears of the psyche, even if these are also the strongest taboos of civilization; healing could come through recognition. pg 156


Ideas of morality, the right of political protest, the quest for self-identity, the validity of revenge, the nature of sacrifice and the need for it: the Greek tragedies address all these issues. pg 162

I absolutely agree with you Cheryl. And this is a really interesting subject. I do think the audience is made to get the impression that she would rather carry on with things as they are (even if it means being married to her son) rather then go any further in pursuit of these horrors coming to light.
On a related note I’ve started the next play in the series titled Antigone. It answers the question: what happened to his children. It’s been very interesting so far. Antigone is proving to be a surprisingly strong woman. Very refreshing, considering what I was expected.

I am very interested interested in reading through other two Oedipus plays. I'm happy to make them a "buddy read" with you, or anyone else who might be interested!

CHERYL wrote: "I went back to the passage where Jocasta describes Laius's actions after the prophecy of his death is given. I made the mistake of inferring that she had an active role in the decision to kill Oedipus."

But the herdsman says otherwise - Iocaste gave him the child and told him to kill it. So she did have an active role (I had overlooked that, too):

HERDSMAN.
Know then the child was by repute his own,
But she within, thy consort best could tell.
OEDIPUS.
What! she, she gave it thee?
HERDSMAN.
’Tis so, my king.
OEDIPUS.
With what intent?
HERDSMAN.
To make away with it.
OEDIPUS.
What, she its mother.

It does not become clear how big her role was: how much responsibility does she have? Did she "only" follow Laios's orders or could/should she have done otherwise? - It is a tiny subplot around the old question of the responsibility of the subordinate.

CHERYL wrote: "I am very interested interested in reading through other two Oedipus plays. I'm happy to make them a "buddy read" with you, or anyone else who might be interested!"

Though it’s believed to have been written last, Oedipus at Colonus comes before Antigone.

Sure Cheryl, and anyone interested, a buddy read sounds fun. Let me (us) know when anyone interested has secured a copy of Antigone. I’ll focus on my other book until then.

Absolutely Sabagrey. I came away from this play with almost as many questions as answers. I’d love to see the story from other perspectives. I suspect however that she didn’t feel she had much choice in the matter. I’m basing that on how passive her behavior was when she learned that her husband was actually her son. It’s almost as though she wanted to appear able to weather any storm. But in reality, when she was alone and able to act according to her true feelings at the end of the play, she ended her own life. (Although I’m still unclear as to whether she committed suicide because she’d lead this marital life with her son or because everyone now knew about it and now her world was falling apart. Or maybe a combination of both things.).

That makes a lot of sense Heather. I started Antigone and it looks like a lot of time has passed. If anyone still wants to buddy read these plays let’s do Colonus next.

sabagrey wrote: "But the herdsman says otherwise - Iocaste gave him the child and told him to kill it. So she did have an active role (I had overlooked that, too):"

Excellent catch on that, thank you!

Wendy wrote: "It’s almost as though she wanted to appear able to weather any storm. But in reality, when she was alone and able to act according to her true feelings at the end of the play, she ended her own life..."

I don't know how much independent choice women would have had in that time period... I love that you note that "when she was alone", *she* made her choice for suicide. And I truly think that she decided on the suicide bc the incest was now known. She probably felt self-disgust in the relationship, but acceptance bc it had been prophesied. It wasn't anything that she or Oedipus had done intentionally. I think that she could have buried the self-disgust and carried on, resolutely, with all of her children.

I will be doing the buddy read! I agree that Colonus should be the next step. I'm fairly new to GR. Do we ask one of the mods to create a Discussion Page for us, or do we continue the chat on this thread? Also, I'm not able to start Colonus until next Monday or Tuesday.

I was going to ask the same thing about how to go about a buddy read because I’ve just started to be active on Goodreads recently as well (although I started the account a while back). Maybe I’ll ask a moderator.

You're in charge, Wendy! Please ask a mod and then message those of us who have expressed interest in the buddy read.

Ok. The moderator said to post it on the thread asking if anyone is interested in doing a buddy read. They said after making the request there something would be set up. So I made the request, setting the proposed time for not this coming week but time next one. I’m not sure what comes next but I’ll let you know if I hear anything (outside of the thread).

Perfect! I'll wait until I'm home on the laptop to navigate to that thread. GR app is not user-friendly, on my cell anyway.

I am glad to hear you will read Colonus next. Colonus helps to make sense of the last comment Creon makes in Oedipus play and why Antigone feels to strongly in Antigone play.

Here is my review of Oedipus Rex. The links I made some years ago have changed, but for now my review remains the same.

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I read all three plays from The Oedipus Cycle: Oedipus Rex, Oedipus at Colonus, Antigone. GR friends suggested this edition. I believe more than one cover and title for this edition edited by Robert Fitzgerald. The language was straightforward and allows the reader/allowed me to more easily seek the long-term truths of the plays.

Every time I read this, I find the various examples of irony to be one of my favorite aspects of this play.

Cynda wrote: "Here is my review of Oedipus Rex. The links I made some years ago have changed, but for now my review remains the same."

I've read now Thomas Gould's article that you linked in your review. It does address some questions that puzzled me throughout reading Oedipus (fate vs free will, character vs destiny) but the answers do not satisfy me at all.

I quote: "“We apparently find it very hard to believe in our own innocence, and cannot accept the innocence of peope too like ourselves. But give us a Christ, or a Job or Antigone … then maybe we can believe it - just for a minute, anyhow.”

I have to suspect that the pervasive feeling of guilt that he presupposes is based in religion (Christian and Jewish) and on Freud. - But does it apply to the Greeks? Does it apply to us in the 21st century? (for my part, I have ingested too much of feminist critique of patriarchal religions to subscribe to the "guilt" paradigm)

That said, I am deeply moved that a 2400 year old text still resonates with us, and still has the power to puzzle and to mystify us. And I will participate in the buddy read of the other Theban plays to learn more (and to end up with more puzzles, I suppose ;-))

Yes that is it exactly, Sabagrey: how does this text still resonate with us. Someday I may come up with some answers to the questions I posted that will work for a while, perhaps a year or two. . .then move in to new questions/answers. . . . I wish I had time to reread with the buddy readers so I could develop new answers or new questions or both. . .

Cynda wrote: "I am glad to hear you will read Colonus next. Colonus helps to make sense of the last comment Creon makes in Oedipus play and why Antigone feels to strongly in Antigone play."

Definitely. Antigone felt like it started in the middle of a conversation. Colonus starts (almost) exactly where Rex left off, which is to say very little time has passed. So I think it will add to the reading of Antigone to read it first (even if it was actually written by Sophocles last).

Wendy yes. Antigone can be read alone. If you feel moved to know more, you can always read the trilogy when you want and can.

In case introductions to the translations didn't make it clear: although Athenian tragedians were expected to present together (as part of a competition) three plays, plus a Satyr Play (a comical coda), they were NOT required to make the three plays a trilogy, developing the same story over time.

(This is also important in understanding what Aristotle really meant about "unities" of time and space in the Poetics. He tended to think in terms of single plays.)

Sophocles did not choose to so group his three (surviving) Theban plays: they originally appeared with (probably) unrelated plays, and were stitched together in later times as if they formed a planned sequence.

Another bit of the story appears in "Seven Against Thebes," by Aeschylus, which WAS part of a unified trilogy (otherwise lost.)

Not knowing this can be a problem if you expect tight connections between the three plays by Sophocles.

By the way, the archaic inherited story of Oedipus was rather different than the way it developed in the Athenian tragic theater: but we only have scraps of the old story, from a lost epic (or epic cycle) on Thebes. It was part of the understood background of the Iliad, in which the Theban wars are mentioned a couple of times.

At this earlier stage it seems that his children were not by Jocasta, but by another woman entirely. And that all the troubles resulted from a curse on his father over a homosexual affair with another king's son, which worked itself out over generations. And from a curse Oedipus laid on his own sons when they failed to show him the proper respect.

It was also probably the Athenians who dragged in their special hero Theseus as a character in the story.

Yet the three plays fit and flow so well. Oedipus at Colonus seems to many moderns to be less important. Only when reading the trilogy as a whole one afternoon--They flowed that well--did I realize how much literary glue there was in that one play between Oedipus Rex and Antigone. . . . . flowed for a modern who does not need dramatic unity.

Cynda wrote: "Here is my review of Oedipus Rex. The links I made some years ago have changed, but for now my review remains the same.

I am only able to read of preview of this article since it requires a login to access it but it does make me very curious as to how this tragedy is the fault of anyone but Oedipus. Although I understand that one question raised is about free will and another is about whether the Gods had a hand in his outcome. Ultimately it seems to me the thing which most influenced Oedipus' outcome is his violent nature. The original cause of these troubles was that in response to being provoked he murdered multiple people (namely King Laius and all his attendants save one). Following that he also almost had his wife's brother (Creon) murdered, after Oedipus falsely assumed he was involved in Laius' murder). Oedipus seems quite easily moved to violent extremes. So I am genuinely interested in this article you linked, titled "the innocence of Oedipus". I'm quite curious about the argument defending him. Perhaps, as the small amount of the article I could preview suggested, I should also read literature written about these plays to fully understand that argument. Maybe after I'll try to find some to read after finishing all three plays. Thank you for bringing this idea up. It's fascinating.

Wendy, unfortunately the website of JSTOR no longer works the same way. You may have to register. When I registered, I did not pay a fee. Sorry you had trouble linking. The review is still my truth. And the truth is difficult and complicated.

Many elements contribute to the tragedy of Oedipus and his family. Many have a part in how things happen. Miscommunication has a part. Operating without complete information has a part. Humans here are ruled by circumstances. As I continue to let this play unfold way back in my mind, I begin to more clearly see how despite what we call best practices still ends up being a tragedy.

We are familiar with this concept. Sometimes we say that our morning or our day has been a comedy of errors--something that can in a moment change into a real difficulty, even a tragedy. Errors here in Oedipus Rex went toward tragedy without any comedy.

Thank you Ian. Now I understand why what I am calling a trilogy is actually a "cycle" as in the Theban Cycle of Oedipus Rex, Oedipus at Colonus,and Antigone.

Some additional information.

Besides Aeschylus and Sophocles, the third great Athenian tragedian (by chronology), Euripides, also treated the Theban dynasty on several occasions. Three of these survive, mainly because they seem to have become school texts by Byzantine times.

I give the Goodreads links below because they are available, not because I am suggesting these specific translations:

The Phoenician Women
Suppliant Women (or just The Suppliants)
The Bacchae

Confusingly, there is also an unrelated play by Aeschylus also titled The Suppliants / Suppliant Women.

The story of the "Seven Against Thebes," with some back story, was retold as a Latin epic by Statius in The Thebaid: Seven Against Thebes, of which there are a number of other translations. Its reputation has suffered in modern times because Statius was not Virgil, and certainly not the Greek Aeschylus. But it was very popular in the Middle Ages, and C.S. Lewis greatly admired it. If it were a modern book it would fall in the category of Dark Fantasy.

Some notes for the curious:

A lot of people who were English majors in college will have struggled with Aristotle's Poetics -- I had it as assigned reading at least three times in four years as an undergraduate, plus "you have of course read Aristotle" in Graduate school. The surviving portion of a two-part book, it deals mainly with Athenian tragedy, and in it he holds up Oedipus Rex (Oidiopos Tyrannos) as the best tragedy.

This although it does not meet his theoretical model of a good tragedy. Apparently he thought Sophocles had overcome the many problems posed by the "myth" by devising a plot and and diction of outstanding quality.

Dorothy L. Sayers, the creator of the aristocratic detective Lord Peter Wimsey (and of the determinedly middle-class Montague Egg, who never achieved the same popularity), wrote "Aristotle on Detective Fiction" (originally delivered as a lecture), which incidentally explains this anomaly.

It seems that poor old Aristotle was born too early to read the classic British detective story, which, as she demonstrates, contains all the elements he wanted in a tragedy. So he had to settle for Oedipus detecting himself.

Unfortunately, understanding the lecture enough to catch the jokes -- and the serious points -- practically requires having read the Poetics.

For those who are interested, she cites the 1909 translation of Ingram Bywater, which was long a standard version. It can be found free on the Internet Archive (Archive.org) as Aristotle on the Art of Poetry, a title which has been re-used for several other translations. See https://archive.org/details/aristotle...

Sayers' lecture itself can be found in The Philosophy of Sherlock Holmes, available in an inexpensive Kindle edition.

Finally, Mary Renault included Oedipus as a character in one of her novels on the life of Theseus (as told by himself), The Bull from the Sea. She uses Sophocles a lot -- especially "Oedipus at Colonus," but manages a new perspective on the old story.

However, fully understanding Theseus' behavior in that portion practically requires having read the earlier The King Must Die, which, fortunately, is very entertaining, too. There is also an omnibus edition: The King Must Die/The Bull from the Sea

I finally read this in the German translation by Hugo von Hofmannsthal, and though I knew the story it was again shocking and tragic. I think Iocaste didn´t have much say in it, and Oedipus reacted like a typical male of this time when killing people who were in his way, physically and metaphorically. Of course his story was sad, but you can´t escape the Gods, as it seems.
Also interested in reading the other two in the "series".

Michaela wrote: "I finally read this in the German translation by Hugo von Hofmannsthal, and though I knew the story it was again shocking and tragic. I think Iocaste didn´t have much say in it, and ..."

I had a look into both German adaptations - Hofmannsthal and Hölderlin. Both were poets, and both felt authorised to take liberties with the text which I did not like. The differences between their versions, and between them and the English version (more of a translation, it seemed to me) were appalling. They wrote their own Oedipus, basically - which is okay, but I was interested in Sophocles in this instance.

I thought so, sabagrey, as the play was quite poetic and old-fashioned. Will try an English translations - can you recommend one?

Wikipedia has a long list of English translations -- and I am not sure it is complete.

Two reputable ones, that is, by classicists in good standing who are also good translators, and which I have in fact read, are by: David Grene, as part of a set of the complete tragedies: and by Robert Fagles, who combined it with the other two Theban plays in their order of writing and production, not, as is usually the case, by internal chronology.

Grene's translation originally appeared in 1942 (1941 by some accounts), as part of The Complete Greek Tragedies, edited by David Grene and Richmond Lattimore, for the University of Chicago Press. This was broken up into several volumes for each of the tragedians went it went into paperback. The Theban plays were bound together as Sophocles • I.

I have not seen the 1991 revised edition, that currently available: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Greek...

The Fagles translation appeared in the Penguin Classics in 1984, as The Three Theban Plays. Fagles is now better known for his translations of Homer, also (eventually) published in the Penguin Classics: he also translated plays of Aeschylus, some of the Greek lyric poets, and a good deal more. The Three Theban Plays: Antigone / Oedipus the King / Oedipus at Colonus. See https://www.amazon.com/Three-Theban-P...

Predictably, the Amazon page links to a Kindle edition, which is in fact the work of another translator. As regular Amazon users will have long since noted, this is a frequent problem.

Michaela wrote: "I thought so, sabagrey, as the play was quite poetic and old-fashioned. Will try an English translations - can you recommend one?"

I used the Project Gutenberg text (of all three plays), translated by one F. Storr, from 1912. I am sure there are better ones, and maybe I am wrong in my impression that this translator was reasonably modest vis-à-vis the original.

(as a trained translator, I hate to read translations and am always suspicious - but I won't go so far as to learn classical Greek at this time in my life ;-))

Thanks Ian and sabagrey! I understand about translations, but when my first language is German, I normally don´t want to read in English when the book isn´t originally in English. In this case anyway... :)

Hi. Just wanted to remind anyone interested that are starting a buddy reading Sophocles’ following two Theban plays. Starting with Oedipus at Colonus today.

I'll see y'all on the Buddy Reads thread!

“In spite of his name, Oidipous, with its resemblance to the Greek word oida (“I know”)—a theme that Sophocles hammers home with continual word-play-Oedipus, who thought he knew so much, did not even know who his mother and father were. But ignorance can be remedied, the ignorant can learn, and the force with which Oedipus now reasserts his presence springs from the truth he now understands: that the universe is not a field for the play of blind chance, and that man is not its measure. This knowledge gives him a new strength which sustains him in his misery and gives him the courage needed to go on living, though he is now an outcast, a man from whom his fellow-men recoil in horror.
The play then is a tremendous reassertion of the traditional religious view that man is ignorant, that knowledge belongs only to the gods—Freud’s “theological purpose.” And it seems to present at first sight a view of the universe as rigid on the side of order as Jocasta’s was anarchic on the side of freedom. Jocasta thought that there was no order or design in the world, that dreams and prophecies had no validity; that man had complete freedom because it made no difference what he did—nothing made any sense. She was wrong; the design was there, and when she saw what it was she hanged herself. But the play now seems to give us a view of man’s position that is just as comfortless as her acceptance of a meaningless universe. What place is there in it for human freedom and meaningful action?
Oedipus did have one freedom: he was free to find out or not find out the truth. This was the element of Sophoclean sleight-of-hand that enabled him to make a drama out of the situation which the philosophers used as the classic demonstration of man’s subjection to fate. But it is more than a solution to an apparently insoluble dramatic problem; it is the key to the play’s tragic theme and the protagonist’s heroic stature. One freedom is allowed him: the freedom to search for the truth, the truth about the prophecies, about the gods, about himself. And of this freedom which Oedipus uses it, make the play not a picture of man’s utter feebleness caught in the toils of fate, but on the contrary, a heroic example of man’s dedication to the search for truth, the truth about himself. This is perhaps the only human freedom, the play seems to say, but there could be none more noble.”

Excerpt From
The Three Theban Play
Introduction "Oedipus the King"
Sophocles, Robert Fagles & Bernard Knox