The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of March 9th through March 15th we are reading CHAPTER 7: Louisiana Maneuvers - pages 150 - 173 of the book - Eisenhower in War and Peace by Jean Edward Smith.

The sixth week's reading assignment is:

Week Six -> CHAPTER Seven: Louisiana Maneuvers - p. 150 - 173 - (March 9, 2015 - March 15, 2015)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on February 2nd

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.

This weekly thread will be opened up on March 9th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderator Teri.

Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Jean Edward Smith

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction Thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed. Since we are discussing the same time period and the same people will be discussed in this book as in the Liberation Trilogy - please utilize those three glossary parts. They will be very helpful to you and will provide a wealth of knowledge.

This is the glossary for this book:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

However, we have an in depth glossary for the Second World War period:

Glossary - Part One - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Glossary - Part Two - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Glossary - Part Three - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

by Jean Edward Smith

Directions on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?

I will modify these directives as we go along but for now utilize the information here.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Everyone, for the week of March 9th, 2015 to March 15th, 2015, we are reading Chapter Seven.

The sixth week’s reading assignment is:

Week Six - March 9th, 2015 to March 15th, 2015
Chapter Seven: Seven: Louisiana Maneuvers - pages 150 - 173

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter 7: Louisiana Maneuvers

Ike is temporarily assigned to the Fourth Army headquarters in San Francisco before going to the 15th Infantry at Ft. Lewis. Ike works under the tutelage of General Kenyon Joyce who gets Ike reassigned to Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio as Third Army chief of staff working under Lieutenant General Walter Krueger. The US enters WWII.

Have you learned to tie your own shoes again since coming back, Eisenhower?
— General Marshall to Eisenhower, January 1940

Folks, we are kicking off the sixth week of the Presidential Series book discussion on former President Dwight David Eisenhower - we welcome you to this discussion which will last for a few months. There is no rush and we are happy to have all of you with us. I look forward to reading your posts in the months ahead.

A key takeaway for me is how Eisenhower scored so well with troop maneuvers in Louisiana, considering that his military experience with troops just began at some point well past his 50th birthday. That was pivotal for his leap into the echelons of military leadership at the onset of World War II. Perhaps, you can rationalize that the grand sum of his military career as staff and officer proved brilliant preparation. Case in point: He didn't have as much troop experience as General Patton did, but in the end, he probably was equipped as a decision maker with broad understandings.

Well said, Brian, you can argue his whole career was for this command in WWII.

It is obvious that General Joyce, Krueger, and Eisenhower all had an obvious passion for leading troops in the field. I was very impressed by this fact. That is probably one of the reasons why they are considered great generals.

I was surprised to read about the fact that the "possibility of war seemed remote"(p 156,) to many in the army, especially considering events in Europe(the fall of France.) I would have thought that by time, some would have at least been considering the possibility of another war.

Thanks Steve, yeah, I guess in the officer corps, you really rose above the fray if you commanded troops. It seems like a big competition, wouldn't you say?

For my part the most exciting part of this chapter, indeed of the book thus far, was reading about the war games that Ike and the others were playing in Louisiana at the time. Not only did it presage the the coming battles of WWII, but the mention of cities like Shreveport as an objective reminded me of something straight out of a Civil War book. I got to say, my blood got pumping a little bit with the description of this fake battle, but I'm curious how they acted out this fake battle. Obviously they wouldn't use live ammunition, but Mr. Smith doesn't mention how they determined who won and who lost on a company by company basis. Was it local judges in the field, like the head umpires mentioned, or something else? I would like to know for the sake of curiosity.

Another interesting aspect of this chapter was how the war games advanced so few officers. As I recall, Smith says that there were about 40 or so officers like Ike, and around 30 of them would pushed aside or got less demanding jobs and all of the ones who made it to higher ranks are people we recognize from the future battles of WWII. What is also interesting about this chapter is the, in spite of the author and Ike's son's efforts to downplay Ike's role in the war games, by the end of the chapter Ike has made it to Brigadier General and is on his way to Washington for war planning. I don't think the author adequately explained why Ike was deserving of his promotion apart from the 30 or so officers who didn't make it at all. Maybe one of you would be willing to enlighten me on this.

I was interested in the fact that the military was so top heavy with officers prior to World War II and that advancement to top rank was a matter of seniority, something that was embedded in the law!

Does anyone know how that seniority system came to be? It seems counter intuitive that you would get the best results that way.

Also, the United States was woefully ill prepared for war until Roosevelt, his new Secretaries of War and Navy, and General Marshall got to work. I know that the Germans started rearming as soon as Hitler came to power.

How about France and Britain? Were they as ill-prepared as the U.S.? They would have had a lot more to lose.

Ann wrote: "Also, the United States was woefully ill prepared for war until Roosevelt, his new Secretaries of War and Navy, and General Marshall got to work. I know that the Germans started rearming as soon as..."

Hi Ann. There is a great book you can read about how prepared for war France, Great Britain, and Germany were. It's called The Sources of Military Doctrine by Barry Posen. It's a book whose main argument shows how military policy implemented by both the military and civilian governments can have a huge effect on the outcome of wars. There is a lot of theoretical jargon geared for military policy makers at the beginning that you may want to skip, but the case studies of Britain, France, and Germany during the interwar period is well worth your time and answers your question completely.

by Barry R. Posen (no photo).

Thanks Christopher, great stuff. I understand where you are coming from about the war games and promotion. I would have liked to learn more. We do know that he had a great reputation and reports, so that played a role in getting him a promotion and the war planning assignment.

Ann: The seniority system had been in place for a long time. I guess they believed experience trumped everything, but it got rotten. Look at Lincoln and what he faced with General Scott at the helm in the beginning of the Civil War. He retired that guy.

I think General Marshall was trying to get the right people at the right job, something the army had not bothered with in the older system. Secretaries Stimson and Fox were probably on board with that idea.

I sense this is an important period of Ike's professional development. He was working with generals that were big picture guys and their chiefs of staff did the details. Ike gets a sense of both ways of working.

Adding to the previous comments...I keep going back to Bentley's question in previous chapter discussions about whether Ike was lucky in his career. Ike really seemed to have a way with kind of foreseeing where his career was or was not going. He knew what he wanted to do ultimately, and stayed on course to get there. I think he just made some very good decisions on what he "ought to do" to get to his goal. It is obvious that he was a very strategic minded person in many areas of his career and this chapter really highlights that.

Thanks Teri, especially in a service that you usually don't get a lot of control over in assignment. He was able to turn some done, but others, he went and did well.

I'm a little behind in my reading, and just finished Chapter 7. This was by far the most interesting chapter to date, with the lead-up to the war. The logistics of the war maneuvers are interesting to ponder, and I also wonder how they did it. The only knowledge I have to go by comes from the war games in the Dirty Dozen. :D Urbanization and sprawl being what it is, I doubt such a vast terrain would be available in this day and age. We were certainly lucky to have Marshall insist on these maneuvers and for all of the other prep that was done to whip the structure of the army into shape. It was nice to see that some efforts were made to get rid of the dead wood. I always thought that the service was a great place for the mediocre to hide and advance through seniority. I certainly hope that it is better run in this day and age. Looking forward to the next chapters.

Thanks for the book recommendation, Christopher. Sounds interesting.

No worries, Maureen, we all get behind and glad you commented.

We were lucky to have General Marshall and White House support behind him.

I like how well Ike handled himself in the mock battle in Louisiana. I enjoyed reading his epiphany about really connecting with the troops and realizing that was his true calling.

I feel this chapter was instrumental in expplaining how his career and early positions helped shape him for what was to come. Looking back over his eraly duty assignments and handling ego such as MacArthur and Patton really helped solidify his ability to command in war and later as President.

It was also key to read about Marshall and his insistance on the training due to the issues that arose in WWI due to the lack of training.

Excellent Chapter!

Christopher wrote: "Obviously they wouldn't use live ammunition, but Mr. Smith doesn't mention how they determined who won and who lost on a company by company basis. Was it local judges in the field, like the head umpires mentioned, or something else? I would like to know for the sake of curiosity..."

Hi Christopher,
I couldn't find any specific info on the "mechanics" of these maneuvers, but going off of how we train today at the Army's Combat Training Centers (CTCs), yes, determining how the battle was going would be done by the umpires (today we call them Observer/Trainers, or OTs). So, GEN Lear and GEN Krueger were most likely given orders, which their staffs would turn into operation orders for the next level down (corps to division to brigade/regiment to battalion to company) and each staff level would follow in turn producing orders until you had the companies engaging in "combat". I believe they had blank training ammunition at this time, and I'm sure the OTs would inject scenarios or situations such as a specific bridge having been destroyed, x number of tanks or artillery pieces destroyed, etc.

Christoper wrote: "I don't think the author adequately explained why Ike was deserving of his promotion apart from the 30 or so officers who didn't make it at all. Maybe one of you would be willing to enlighten me on this.

I'll take a stab at this... I'm guessing those other 31 officers couldn't perform as commanders in "battle". Not all officers should be commanders, but make better staff officers (or shouldn't be officers at all). I will say that words matter big time on Officer Evaluation Reports (OERs), and from what the author has given us, all of Ike's were outstanding. For instance, on page 173, Joyce writing that Ike was "one of the ablest officers in the Army. This officer is thoroughly qualified for division command at this time" when this was a job for someone two pay grades above what Ike was currently would have been a big sign for whomever was reading his OER. GEN Kreuger rating him number 2 out of 170 officers also would have been a huge sign. For promotion boards today, board members don't really read the portion of your OER that states what you've done/what your accomplishments were during the rating period, but instead focus on what is written about your promotion potential and potential for increased responsibility, as well as your numerical ranking with your peers. I don't know if that is what you were looking for, but my WWII history isn't the best.

Cheers.

I appreciate the background information, Erica.

Thanks Erica, very helpful.

Christopher wrote: "For my part the most exciting part of this chapter, indeed of the book thus far, was reading about the war games that Ike and the others were playing in Louisiana at the time. Not only did it pres..."

I know I am behind - this was a very informative chapter - the notice that Christopher takes from the line "of 42 commanders....31 were relieved or shunted aside" was something I also noticed.
All of a sudden not everyone is a star - the culling out that would have to come with war was beginning.
Erica's msg 20 added to more contemporary perspective.

Teri wrote: "Adding to the previous comments...I keep going back to Bentley's question in previous chapter discussions about whether Ike was lucky in his career. Ike really seemed to have a way with kind of fo..."

I think that Ike was more than lucky - he was smart, well educated in his field with an inquiring mind and industrious.
I used to deal with a fellow who had a sign up in his office "all good things come to those who wait....... as long as they work like hell while they wait"
That seems to have been Ike with the addition of smarts - just a side thought

Good sign, Vince!

Thanks Vince, you can argue also that Ike took great advantage of his luck and opportunities.