The Sword and Laser discussion

I am loving this book; the political intrigue is fun. But... The "We" thing... It's driving me CRAZY!!!

I get the royal "we," but does every single character have to talk like this when addressing the emperor, AKA the protagonist!? I'm going to finish the book, probably this week, but damn, it's getting old.

Anyone else feeling this?

Nope.

You need to read the little grammar section in the back of the book.

Stephen wrote: "You need to read the little grammar section in the back of the book."

Unfortunately I'm listening to the audiobook. Maybe I'll go to a bookstore and check it out.

I didn't find it any weirder than Pern, and a lot less weird than Tolkien.

We don't think so.

I'm almost at the halfway way point and it has only been annoying because I haven't been able to figure out if there was a reason for it. I'm doing the audiobook as well so it sounds like the might be a reason called out in the grammar section of book so I will seek it out.

I am doing audio too...There is definitely a deliberate reason behind we vs I because in one scene in part one he says "I" before correcting to the proper "We"

Apparently people highly recommend reading the appendix "Extracts from a handbook for travelers in the elflands" before reading the print book :|

I wonder if its included in the audio - I'll have to jump to the end to check.

http://jadedconsumer.blogspot.com/201...

"Readers who want to get all the information encoded by the author in her writing may wish to note that the book has a useful appendix. "Extracts from A Handbook for Travelers in the Elflands" – purportedly a Crooked Stair Press product printed for the Royal Merchants Guild of Porcharn – may be worth bookmarking by those who want to understand when the author uses a family name to describe the whole family and when the author intends using a family name to explain the gender and marital status of an individual. The author divulges the system for decoding the endings affixed to family-name roots, and this may be of real help to people hoping to keep straight which of two related people are being described (which could be disambiguated by gender, for example). I personally found myself hard-pressed to keep straight the large number of long and alien-looking Elf names, but at least decoding them into gender and marital status is a help. In a paper edition, dog-ear the "Handbook" at the end. It's not essential to enjoyment, but it's an aid one should know exists."

But yeah, it will be great one day when ebooks and audio books come with printable versions of maps, appendices, dramatis personae, etc.

Brandon Sanderson put up the graphics from The Way of Kings on his website. This is *much* appreciated!

There is no glossary, list of characters, or appendix in the audible version, unlike the print book.

The authors website does have one hand drawn map, but thats about it:

http://www.katherineaddison.com/img/g...

I am tempted to refund my audible credit and get the ebook + whispersync for an additional $4.49 or whatever, but my original plan was to do the book entirely in audio since I am doing another on the kindle.

OK, for audiobook listeners, you can now find the appendix and glossary here:

http://pastebin.com/NUNLWFZm

I kind of like the slow reveal. The "We" bit seems straight out of English royalty so that didn't slow me down. So far, name endings have been explained in the body of the text as needed. I might give it a read after finishing the book.

This reminds me of the "Sandman" companion book, which explained the various references. I got the majority of them by reading the series the first time - actually second, since I'd read many of the pamphlets as they came out but only got the full story through the trades. Then I read a third time with the companion book. That requires a whole lot of love. Not sure I'll have that much love for Goblin Emperor although I am thoroughly enjoying it.

I haven't felt like I am missing much, but its definitely more difficult in audio with the complex names.

Sky wrote: "OK, for audiobook listeners, you can now find the appendix and glossary here:

http://pastebin.com/NUNLWFZm"

THANKS! As soon as I get off tonight I'll read this. I hope it helps because I'm loving every other aspect of the book.

Sky wrote: "OK, for audiobook listeners, you can now find the appendix and glossary here:

http://pastebin.com/NUNLWFZm"

Thank you for adding that, I'll be checking it out when I'm out of work.

I'm curious about the audio just to hear these crazy family and place names pronounced!

The narrator does a very good job and it is a fun listen. This is my third go through.

I only noticed for the first few pages. After that, it just blended into the background. And it is effective it changes to singular for emphasis.

It took me out of the story a little at first, but I got used to it kind of quickly. I can see how it might be confusing listening to though, and it makes me a little glad I decided not to get the audiobook. The names are more confusing to me than the pronouns.

I can't follow any of the non-main-character names and they're not in the glossary. Takes me out a bit. Not a whole lot.

The beginning was a raving five star rating, and although the book has continued solid, at 80 pages from the end I'm thinking a four. Definite recommend but could have been better.

John (Taloni) wrote: "I can't follow any of the non-main-character names and they're not in the glossary. Takes me out a bit. Not a whole lot.

The beginning was a raving five star rating, and although the book has cont..."

I know, even though it claims to be a list of names, every time I encountered a name I needed a reminder for, it wouldn't be listed.

Yeah, the glossary is of slight help. I'd like it if it gave definitions to the various titles, as well, because they're very similar. We see "edocharei" a lot, but every once in a while the other version pops up and I can't remember what they do.

One of the most famous uses of 'we' was attributed to Queen Victoria who said "We are not amused."

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I know, even though it claims to be a list of names, every time I encountered a name I needed a reminder for, it wouldn't be listed. "

I am half way through and have found the same thing. It's really annoying and I will probably knock off a star for that alone.

Yeah, I'm really enjoying the book (about a quarter through) but the names are annoying me too. I'm not having any problems with the "we" thing.
So far it's reminding me of a cross between The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms and The Curse of Chalion.

Phil wrote: "So far it's reminding me of a cross between The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms and The Curse of Chalion. ..."

Yes! I kept thinking of the Jemisin. Outsider as heir to the throne!

I'm finding the names a bit confusing too. I think most of them are in the glossary but sometimes you only get one of a character's names and if you can't remember the full name it's hard to look them up. It bothered me a lot at the beginning but at a little over 100 pages in it's starting to get better. The "We" think doesn't bother me at all. Though the use of "an" bugs me a bit.

An it bothers you, just substitute "if." :)

For the names, I honestly didn't realize that some of the freakier stuff was titles. I only found out after I finished the book. Might be worth a read of that. We're used to "duke" or "duchess" or the like, and these are similar but not obvious at first.

I was translating "an" as "so long as," but "if" might make more sense.

The complexity of the invented grammar and proper names actually draw me into the world as I share on Maia's own bewilderment at the inner workings of the Untheleinese Court.

disastercouch wrote: "I was translating "an" as "so long as," but "if" might make more sense."

It can be both! http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/an#Etym...

I don't have an issue with the "we" and I think that the language used really helps to emphasis the formality of these iterations. However, as interesting as the culture and the meaning behind the use of different names is I am finding it really slows down how fast I can read this book. being dyslexic the new language is difficult to pick up and is throwing me out of the story. I'm only 2 days in though so I'm hoping that I will get used to it by the end and can enjoy the story more.

Eleanor, definitely give that primer in the back a read. It should help with the names.

John (Taloni) wrote: "Eleanor, definitely give that primer in the back a read. It should help with the names."

Thanks, I have read it and it has been a huge help. It's still been a bit of a learning curve. But like I said, I am still pretty early on in the book so I will hopefully pick it up soon. Strange names aren't usually a problem with me with fantasy book.

Just finished it, and I share the sentiments of some others over the difficulties of understanding some of the name references, etc. Since Maia's education was, as he put it, sadly lacking, I did find myself wondering why the author could not have included some clarification on some of the more commonly used references, explaining such explanations away as Maia's learning these things for himself. But perhaps the author didn't want him to appear any more ignorant than he already was due to his previous isolation.

The "We" thing doesn't bother me. It reminds me of the phrase "the royal 'we'" or "We the people". I guess they use that to show that they represent a group of people not only just one person.

But the names and so many characters. I've got to the point that I just remember the main characters and even then it slips my mind. Even using the list it too time consuming.

We didn't bother me too much but I did notice an awkwardness when indicating that 'we' was being used plural. I can forgive it though because I am was disproportionately delighted to see 'thee' and 'thou' used correctly as informal pronouns with 'you' being the formal.

I liked the idea that this court had linguistic nuances like this, where using the formal pronoun was as important as using the right person. For me, there were enough indications in the story to make sense of it.

The names, on the other hand, those really confused me at times. Their variations fitted the setting and atmosphere, but because that was much more complex than I/we it got in the way more.

On the topic of ranting about the linguistics... I thought that the author created a bit of confusion at times by just throwing in an elven word out of nowhere and then treating it as if the reader is actually reading a "translation" of what is being said rather than the actual words.

The most egregious example is the dinner party where Lord Pashavar and Edrahasivar are discussing the fact that Maia never had anything that belonged to his mother. (Chapter 23) The exact excerpt is:

"He left you nothing for remembrance?" Pashavar said. He used the ritual word, "ulishenathaan": a token of a dead person.

This one instance made me question everything I had read up to this point. If this one quotation is actually a translation, then are all of the quotations in the book being translated from Ethuverazhin?

Maybe this was just a single inconsistency for the sake of changing up sentence structure. But in my case, it really threw me out of the story, almost as much as trying to remember all the names.

Cliff wrote: "are all of the quotations in the book being translated from Ethuverazhin?"

Yes. While the book is written in English, it's made clear that the realm's people do not speak that language. It's a translation just as Lord of the Rings is presented as a translation.

After finishing the book I caught myself actually using the "we" while talking to my boyfriend.. boy! did he was confused!

Belen wrote: "After finishing the book I caught myself actually using the "we" while talking to my boyfriend.. boy! did he was confused!"

Maybe you were using the "formal 'We' best suited to addressing a social inferior" rather than the "intimate 'We' best suited to addressing a partner or helpmeet".

Joyce wrote: "The "We" thing doesn't bother me... But the names and so many characters. I've got to the point that I just remember the main characters and even then it slips my mind. Even using the list it too time consuming...."

I felt the same way. The "we" just added to the atmosphere of the book IMHO.

However, the names and titles could be very confusing. Starting at about half-way through the book, I had to have the name appendix open in the Kindle app on my phone while I read the book on my Kindle or listened to the audio book! It took a little while to understand when the author was using a character's title and name vs. their sirname and family name.

Listening and reading took a little getting used to but was eventually okay once I understood how everything was pronounced.

I think the explanation of how the names are spelled in the appendix in the back ("A Handbook for Travellers in the Elflands") probably would've helped early on, but I was way too lazy to memorize the system.

Overall, I found this book delightful and look forward to any sequels.

The royal we adds to the separation and isolation of the Emperor. It is important for the theme of the book.

IRL the Chinese emperor had a whole separate pronoun (Zhen) for his use instead of the royal we. At least the author did not make up a word and stuck to something the reader was familiar with.

But the Royal We is used in England, where English is the language of choice for the majority. Just get yourselves a monarch and get over it. :-)

I was surprised that the other people all used we as well. Is that how it works in England? If I ever get to meet the queen I should refer to myself as we?

Caitlin wrote: "I was surprised that the other people all used we as well. Is that how it works in England? If I ever get to meet the queen I should refer to myself as we?"

You should absolutely do that. Protocol demands it.

"We are pleased to make your acquaintance, Your Highness," is the proper way to address the Queen.

As it turns out I would probably address the queen with, "This 'we' thing is silly, Elizabeth."

This probably explains why I would never be invited to meet the queen.

Well, people keep talking about a Royal We in this book, but it's not the only We being used.

There's a "formal" We that non-Maia people are using as well. Only *some* of the "We's" are actually royal.

You shouldn't address HRH Queen Elizabeth as 'Your Highness', that's reserved for addressing male members of royalty. i.e. Prince Philip. The queen is addressed as 'Your Majesty'.
Incidentally modern etiquette is somewhat relaxed in that you only have to address them that way the first time you greet them. After that they are addressed as 'Sir' and 'Ma'am'.

David wrote: "Well, people keep talking about a Royal We in this book, but it's not the only We being used.

There's a "formal" We that non-Maia people are using as well. Only *some* of the "We's" are actually r..."

Yeah, I got the feeling that the elf language had a number of different pronouns for showing different levels of social standing or intimacy, which were kind of being collapsed to "We" or "I" when rendered into English; that's why Maia occasionally interjects to try to point out the specific form he was using.