The Sword and Laser discussion

In the "Can't put my finger on it..." thread - a few people seemed to describe feeling a bit alienated by not being familiar with British culture, or with the city of London. I certainly buy that setting is something that can make someone love or hate a book - but amongst SFF readers I guess I was surprised that some people felt like they needed to know London better in order to 'get' the book. After all, in most SFF books, the world is created entirely from the author's imagination, so it's impossible to come to the book with any kind of knowledge of the world.

Is it perhaps the case that since London is real, some folks feel more of a need to be familiar with it in a way that doesn't occur when the setting is some completely made-up fantasy world?

I think the issue is probably that some things discussed in the book assume a high degree of familiarity with British culture and as such are never described.

In a well-written fantasy city, if someone referenced a "Thingumywhatsit", there would probably be something that explained what a "Thingumywhatsit" is, or at least placed it in a context from which the reference can be inferred. In the case of RoL, unless you know what an ASBO is (for example), and all the associated context that it brings to mind for the average Brit, you are unlikely to get the full connotation of "Ford Asbo". This is a minor example, but I can understand why the wealth of similar detail in the book might be alienating for non-Brits.

I presume you could write similar impenetrable phrases about New York.

As with other aspects of the book, I think Aaronovitch dials back on these references in future books (or at least gets better at putting them in context).

I don’t know about this.

WHen reading books by American authors there are just as many assumptions of basic knowledge. It is just that most of us in the English speaking world are saturated in US pop culture so get a lot of the references.

This is not the case for citizens of the US who do not see much pop culture from around the globe.

As an Australian I am used to getting references that I have no clue about unless I look them up. An example of this is the American high school and College culture which is so completely different to the rest of the world as to be incomprehensible. I still don’t get the big deal about college sport which looks like a monumental waste of money for a University.

Because of this I am used to glossing over details that are there for flavour rather than core details of the plot. I
If all these details wer explained it would be very tedious and would detract from the book

I guess as an Anglophile, I got most of everything. I like the slow roll out of the magic system spread out in the first few novels.

Reading on the Kindle helps a lot for this sort of thing. The built in dictionary is only a press away and it also has the Wikipedia entries for words not in the dictionary. Jackanory was the latest reference I had no idea about until I looked it up. But when I'm reading a paper version and I come across something I don't know I generally gloss over it unless it seems important to the plot.

I think Aurora Rising is a good recent example of a non-real world book with little or unexplained references and I remember comments by people enjoying that aspect.

I much prefer the authentic voice in RoL to what we often get in entertainment where characters say things for the audiences benefit that they would never say if it were a real situation. This always stands out to me. The ASBO just blew right past me. I figured it was a little car they drive in London. ha ha

Malcolm wrote: "Reading on the Kindle helps a lot for this sort of thing. The built in dictionary is only a press away and it also has the Wikipedia entries for words not in the dictionary. Jackanory was the lates..."

I love the Kindle (on iPad) built in Dictionary, Wikipedia & Translate options. It makes reading so much more enjoyable, having explanations only a finger press away.

There are quite a few others that I thought might not be that obvious to non Brits and I noted them in my original review. Such as:
'Chav'
'Pikey'
'blues and twos'
'jam sandwich'
'panda car'
'Jackanory version'
'twigged'
'on the pull'
Also you need to be of a certain age to know that a 'Panda Car' was replaced by a 'Jam Sandwich' sometime in the 70's, and have now been replaced by Battenbergs (of course you have to know what a Battenberg cake is to understand that :)

AndrewP wrote: "There are quite a few others that I thought might not be that obvious to non Brits"

Does anyone know if the terminology used in the UK edition was edited for the US edition?

This reminds me of the Reddit thread I shared back when we read Harry Potter, of redditors discussing what things in the books they had thought were magic but were actually just British.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/co...

A Ford Asbo doesn’t quite have the olde-worlde charm of a steam train, of course…

As a non-english speaker I found the London specifics and UK terms added a LOT of flavor for me, even if I didn't understand something. But that's really the standard mode for me *lol*

For me it was like reading The Lord of the Rings where you feel there's more to something that's being mentioned without exactly understanding it...

Jan wrote: "For me it was like reading The Lord of the Rings where you feel there's more to something that's being mentioned without exactly understanding it..."

This is my usual approach to speculative stuff, and my approach to this one too. I figured out the 'blues and twos' meant going fast with the lights on from context, for example, and chalked up the other stuff to flavor. For some reason, from reading fantasy, those references are more likely to draw me into a world rather than alienate me I think.

AndrewP wrote: "There are quite a few others that I thought might not be that obvious to non Brits and I noted them in my original review. Such as:
'Chav'
'Pikey'
'blues and twos'
'jam sandwich'
'panda car'
'Jackanory version'
'twigged'
'on the pull'"

I searched my Kindle edition of Midnight Riot and didn't find the words "blues and twos", "jam sandwich", nor "Jackanory version".

Can someone search the UK text and tell me which chapters these terms appeared in? Kindle search usually states chapter and page for search results.

Title of Chapter 8 - The Jackanory Version

Text snippet
…
‘What’s the difference?’

‘You keep asking the kind of questions,’ said Nightingale, ‘that really shouldn’t be coming up for another year or so.’

‘Just the basics – the Jackanory version.’

I looked this up in the US version and it is 'translated' to Grade School Version' there. So looks like the publisher took out all the relevant slang:(

AndrewP wrote: "I looked this up in the US version and it is 'translated' to Grade School Version' there. So looks like the publisher took out all the relevant slang:("

I'm not sure how I feel about that. I feel deceived. Ha ha. I really enjoyed the US Audible I bought, but I wish they would give us the option to pick either version instead of choosing for us. It's like they're saying "You're not smart enough to read the UK version, here's a dumbed down one for you instead."

Ian (RebelGeek) wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "I looked this up in the US version and it is 'translated' to Grade School Version' there. So looks like the publisher took out all the relevant slang:("

I'm not sure how I feel abo..."

Not the first time US publishers do something really silly. For a good laugh listen to the original Mad Max dubbed into redneck US....

Iain wrote: "Not the first time US publishers do something really silly. For a good laugh listen to the original Mad Max dubbed into redneck US...."

At least they wouldn't have had to dub Max.

Mel Gibson is a redneck American 😜

AndrewP wrote: "I looked this up in the US version and it is 'translated' to Grade School Version' there. So looks like the publisher took out all the relevant slang:("

Oh, wow. I can see why they might do this, however this seems like taking a song and removing the bassline - sure you get the lyrics and rhythm, but you're missing part of the soul.

I guess "Grade School Version" gets across the meaning, but "Jackanory version" would be better translated as something like "Sesame Street version", since it implies a slightly more casual humour/shared social history in the interaction (having said that, maybe that is just because, as Brit, "grade school version" doesn't have the same cultural baggage).

Although this is minor change, it is possible that the cumulative affect of many such changes could be to remove some of the flavour from the story.

I’m not 100%, but I believe they only used the British version for the audiobook, and did not “regonalize it” for the US. Listened to it a few months ago, so I don’t trust my memory completely. I don’t recall Jackanory, but I’m pretty sure I do remember “blues and twos”.

Maybe someone else can confirm or deny,

Here's what I found searching the ebook I can get from Libby (I'm in the US):

Not found: Pikey, blues and twos, jam sandwich, Jackanory Version (changed to Grade School Version)

Found: chav, panda car, twigged, on the pull

I really loved the authentic-sounding working-class British voice used in the book (in the dead tree version). Together with all the little details, for me, it gave the book a grounding that it wouldn't have if it were set in some strange foreign place I've never been - like San Francisco.

(For context, I'm not from London, but I'm pretty close and had been to some of the key locations in the book long before reading it).

Not that I don't enjoy books set abroad, but having one very clearly not be, and to take such visible delight in making London as much a character as the actual, um characters gives a great flavour to the book that helps it stand out. It's not often that I notice how good the writing style is in a book, but I did with this one, and I think all the local detail and slang is part of that.

But, of course, one can see how the reaction might be different if you're from elsewhere.

AndrewP wrote: "Also you need to be of a certain age to know that a 'Panda Car' was replaced by a 'Jam Sandwich' sometime in the 70's, and have now been replaced by Battenbergs."

Okay, I think I wasn’t paying close attention, because I missed these phrases, and aside from the obvious, I don’t actually have a clue what is being discussed here. I mean, for ‘panda car’ I’m picturing a car that looks like a panda, a jam sandwich is two slices of bread with some jam in the middle and a battenberg is a type of cake. I can’t imagine what may link these things. Maybe this slang is less common up north?

I definitely don’t think it’s unfamiliar terms that does it, though. Like Iain said, I’ve read many a book full of strange American words I didn’t understand at the time, like sophomore, and faucet, to name two I remember being puzzled about at the time, and I usually just come up with my own (often wrong) explanations. So when I read the sentence ‘you can’t turn Jenny on and off like a faucet’ which is what Jenny was, at that point, doing to demonstrate, I knew the scene was set in a kitchen, thought about things in the kitchen that could be turned on and off, decided a faucet must be something like a microwave and moved on, happy to have concluded that Jenny was right: she was nothing like a microwave! She also wasn’t much like a tap, so my misunderstanding didn’t alter my understanding of the scene. So long as the context is in the right place, you’re not going to miss much if you don’t understand every word.

I think the reason for the difference between this setting and a made up one, is that you can’t write a novel as a love letter to a fictional place the way you can with a real one, and I think that’s what Arronovitch was trying to do here. He was trying to show his London, the London that might be dark and dirty, but is the place he calls home. If you don’t have those kind of feelings about the place, or if the London you like is a different kind of London, you are less likely to love this part of the story, and it’s a pretty large chunk of the story.

The car types are not exclusive the London area, I thought they were the same all over the UK. For some pictures see here:

Panda Car -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_car

Jam Sandwich and Battenburg -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam_san...

The Battenburg says Northern Constabulary on the side so it must be from up North.

Oh, so they’re police cars! Thanks. That was bugging me.

I didn’t mean the things themselves when I wondered if it was less common up north, but the slang used for them, which might still be the case, I don’t know, or it might just be that I’ve never had much cause to talk about the vehicles police used enough to need cute terms for them. I might ask others round here if they’re familiar with the words, just to satisfy my curiosity. Maybe it’s something fans of The Bill would instantly recognise - I never watched that show; I can’t really remember watching any police procedurals growing up, and the ones I’ve watched since are all American, so that could be how it passed me by.

Update: I asked my mum, and she instantly recognised the panda car correctly, but hadn’t a clue how the jam sandwich - “is it a car crash between two police cars?” - or a battenburg were connected. When I explained she found it delightful, but had never heard those terms.

AndrewP wrote: "I looked this up in the US version and it is 'translated' to Grade School Version' there. So looks like the publisher took out all the relevant slang:("

I feel a little sad about this. Surely the point of reading literature from other countries to the opportunity to learn more about other countries. “Grade School Version” might well be something American’s would have a better chance of understanding, but it is absolutely not something any British person would say, or even fully understand. What exactly does the ‘grade’ part of that phrase refer to? Which ages are covered by ‘grade school’?

I’ve lived in various parts of England - north, south and midlands - and tbh the only slang term for a police car I’ve heard used “in the wild” was “meat wagon” (because it’s full of pigs). I’m familiar with the panda car/jam sandwich/battenburg terminology, but only because I previously had occasion to look it up on Wikipedia.

The battenburg pattern is pretty much universal on emergency vehicles across the UK these days. Incidentally, if you really want to dive deep into a wiki hole, you can look up the history of the term ‘battenburg’ and find out what connects a check pattern with the last viceroy of India.

(view spoiler)[ it’s a type of cake with a check pattern, first baked for the wedding of queen Victoria’s grand-daughter (also Victoria) to Prince Louis of Battenburg. The British branch of the Battenburg family are still going strong, although they’ve been known as Mountbatten since 1917. Fun fact: I grew up near their family seat in Hampshire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battenb... (hide spoiler)]

Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "I looked this up in the US version and it is 'translated' to Grade School Version' there. So looks like the publisher took out all the relevant slang:("

I feel a little sad about t..."

I wonder if "Sesame Street version" would have been a better translation of "Jackanory version" for US readers?

I think it would still be an odd thing for a London cop to say, but better than grade school, since at least Sesame Street is something you could watch in the UK too.

I had to look up "beer and skittles" since I knew he was not referring to Skittles candy! Skittles is a kind of bowling, I guess...

I did think it was strange that all the British terms were used, except the word "soccer" - unless I am wrong and the term "soccer" is used in the UK? I thought it was always "football".

Little known fact, "Soccer" is derived from the "soc" of Association Football. It's a Britishism. It's just a lot more widely used in the US.

Not Skittles candy?! Nnnnoooo!!!

Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "I think it would still be an odd thing for a London cop to say, but better than grade school, since at least Sesame Street is something you could watch in the UK too."

It is more like LeVar Burton reads. It is just an actor reading a story.

From Wikipedia:

The show's title comes from an old English nursery rhyme:

I'll tell you a story
About Jack a Nory,
And now my story's begun;
I'll tell you another
Of Jack and his brother,
And now my story is done.

And Peter is a strange London Cop even before he gets involved with the Folly.

Iain wrote: "It is more like LeVar Burton reads. It is just an actor reading a story."

Sure, but if I Brit referenced that, I’d wonder how on earth he knew about that show. It’s not like it’s a household name. Was he such a fan of Next Generation that he followed the actor’s career? Does he have a large number of American friends that have informed him of LeVar’s less well known shows. And even if he was familiar with it, why would he expect another Brit to recognise it? I’d never heard of Reading Rainbow until it was randomly brought up on Sword and laser.

It’s such a weird thing to change, because the reference informs us about Peter’s childhood, and thus is a part of his characterisation. The previous sentence already gives you enough context to understand what he’s asking for, so anyone who doesn’t understand the reference can just ignore it, or look it up for an interesting insight into Peter’s childhood.

It is strange they changed the British-isms in the US version.

They could have had footnotes to explain the more obscure ones. They add to the charm of the story.

As an Aussie brought up on British cop shows like The Sweeney & The Bill and many other British comedies and dramas, I got most of the references. A few I had to look up, like jam sandwich.

Ruth (tilltab) Ashworth wrote: "Iain wrote: "It is more like LeVar Burton reads. It is just an actor reading a story."

Sure, but if I Brit referenced that, I’d wonder how on earth he knew about that show. It’s not like it’s a ho..."

I wasn't suggesting they change it just commenting that it was a silly change that wasn't even accurate.

I thought Star Trek: TNG was pretty big in the UK. Am I wrong?

You’re not wrong, but not to the extent where all the actors became household names, and certainly not to the point where anyone would know about other US only shows those actors had done.