Works of Thomas Hardy discussion

Bionic Jean wrote: "Jane, it is a such a shame you could not discuss this with us at the time, with all the different points of view. However I do look forward to you joining in with us next time!"

Thanks, Jean. What is unusual is that I don't think I've come across a comment in the threads that I disagree with completely. Not that I think perfect agreement is required, but even with the different perspectives, there's been some common ground. I think we must all be humanists at heart. We have a great group here! I very much hope I am able to participate in the next read.

Thank you so much, Jan.

I do hope your work commitments allow you a little time to join with us soon! We are reading and commenting on a different poem each week ... LINK HERE

Hello folks, reading these posts I wanted to share that since reading Tess and being exposed to the character of Angel I have been ruminating on the question of whether there is a way to redeem his character...? through suffering, through greater self=knowledge, etc.
The result has been a series of novels called A Redemption for Angel Clare. I wanted to share the first one with you all. Just released.

https://www.amazon.com/Hardy-Girl-Red...

Hello Mark,
Good luck with your novel. What a shame you did not join in with our discussion 🤔 However, you are welcome to share your thoughts on Tess of the D'Urbervilles here, as the threads will remain open.

my sincere apology. I will join in.

Thanks Mark - I look forward to reading your comments on any of the 6 threads for this novel 😊.

Bionic Jean wrote: "At last we have more details about Angel Clare! Thomas Hardy has shifted the point of view away from Tess, and lets us discover her fate through Angel’s eyes.

Angel too has done hi..."

This section reminds me of the scene when Tess did travel to Emminster to try to find the Clares. There is that scene when she is waiting outside the church, having left her boots. Though she was too proud to ask for help (even from her true inlaws) it felt as though the worlds that separated Tess from Angel's family rendered her as a ghost on the landscape. They interacted with her briefly, but only as is she had materialized for a few moments and broken into their perfect world. I feel that part of what Hardy was doing here was highlighting some of the hypocrisy of church folks of his time. The reality of Tesses life disturbed Angel's carefully manufactured image of himself and the life (and wife) he deserved. How much more would Tess appearing outside their church disturb this previous generation and their assumptions of life. Christian charity would suggest that a woman in need outside a church would be immediately helped. The bitter irony is that if they had, if they had taken just a moment before turning away and understood who she was, the tragedy of Tess's undoing would have been averted. Hardy was subtle but relentless in his criticism of institutionalized Christianity in how it had succumbed to the prejudices of the culture and then even helped form them!

Bridget wrote: "I also keep thinking about when Tess asks Angel if he will forgive her sin against him now that she has killed Alec. I’m not sure what to make of this.

It’s as if the murder of Alec is okay, or a..."

I agree that this is a seminal piece of Tess's personality. She has accepted in her mind that the events of her life are heavenly punishment for her sins (what ever she imagines them to be). There is a fatalism that develops in her I think, which is a sad corruption of the innocent positivity of her childhood. She was always responsible, even serving as the parent to her childlike parents. A psychoanalyst might say she has a strong "parent voice" that has now turned against her as her constant critic. And so she sees herself as the cause of everyone's trouble. I think in this mindset she apologizes to Angel for killing Alec, simply because it is another moral failing he has to suffer from her. The irony of this from Hardy is that Angel's sins are far more numerous and serious. Here is the core of the tragedy. She finally took "agency" in the killing of Alex (this killing of corrupted patriarchy). But as a Victorian female, taking agency is what is her downfall. Rather than triumph over her enemy, it is her own action that dooms her. I think this tragic plot piece is Hardy's highest achievement his criticism of his own society's double standards. If she was a male character, she would have been a hero.

Mark wrote: "I agree that this is a seminal piece of Tess's personality. She has accepted in her mind that the events of her life are heavenly punishment for her sins (what ever she imagines them to be). There is a fatalism that develops in her..."

This is very well said, Mark. So glad you've joined in the commentary. I think you are right, that Tess would have been considered a hero for killing Alec - if she had been a man. I always find the ending of this novel so sad, but its so good too.

I know. The story has stayed with me in so many ways. I mour.ed for three days

Mark wrote: "it felt as though the worlds that separated Tess from Angel's family rendered her as a ghost on the landscape ..."

Yes! You express this so well! I particularly like this too "as a Victorian female, taking agency is what is her downfall. Rather than triumph over her enemy, it is her own action that dooms her."

Tess's fate is inevitable, yet each time I read it, I wish it could have been different!

Thank you so much for adding these insightful thoughts Mark. I hope you will also join in when we read another novel by Thomas Hardy 😊

I will he's my favorite

😊

I found the following information included in the endnotes of this Macmillan edition of Tess of the D'Urbervilles rather poignant. I haven't managed to find this paragraph included in any online editions of the book.

It's interesting to note the phrase 'sons of the forest', which compliments the symbolism of Tess being a 'child' or 'daughter' of nature. If only Tess had met a kindred son of nature! Chapter 11 is the scene in The Chase :(

There is netherworld symbolism implied by calling Angel 'the spoiler'. I'm also not sure if 'the spoiler' is referring to Angel or fate: As Tess’s own people down in those retreats are never tired of saying among each other in their fatalistic way: “It was to be.”

The novel was first published in book form by Osgood, McIlvaine & Co. in three volumes in November 1891. The text contains, at the end of chapter 11, a substantial (and very beautiful) passage omitted from later editions:

"Already at that hour some sons of the forest were stirring and striking lights in not very distant cottages; good and sincere hearts among them, patterns of honesty and devotion and chivalry. And powerful horses were stamping in their stalls, ready to be let out into the morning air. But no dart or thread of intelligence inspired these men to harness and mount, or gave them by any means the least inkling that their sister was in the hands of the spoiler; and they did not come that way."

How interesting! Thanks Jane. At that point I would have expected "the spoiler" to refer to Alec D'Urberville.

Note to all:

These observations concern chapter 11 and so fit with the end of the first thread: LINK HERE

I am going to share a story about "Tess of the D'Ubervilles" that involves a co-worker who is originally from China. A few years ago, I started to send my co-workers a Victorian themed Christmas electronic greeting. I included screenshots of the Christmas party hosted by Mr. William Boldwood from the 2015 adaptation of "Far from the Madding Crowd".
This co-worker contacted me in response, and we started talking about Hardy and his novels. She stated she read "Tess" while a student in China and commented it was quite a popular work over there. I was curious and asked her why. Her answer I suppose one can say was interesting. She stated Chinese consider Tess as an archetype of a fallen Western woman and as a warning to the Chinese of adapting Western mores. I decided out of caution to leave it at that.

Goodness, I'm not surprised! Thanks for this, Michael.

wow. that is intriguing. so they believe she is fallen contrary to Hardys intent

Exactly, Mark. I believe they can't get Goodreads in China (restrictions on the internet) but it would be interesting to see if we have any members of Chinese origin living elsewhere, who could comment.

I think we have seen a number of readers of Indian origin who are attracted to and well informed of Victorian novels

Mark wrote: "I think we have seen a number of readers of Indian origin who are attracted to and well informed of Victorian novels"

Oh definitely, Mark.

Off-topic post follows, to put this in context:

Goodreads is international - although it started in California USA. But they let me join, and my friends here live in various different countries, not just my own (England). I know at least one fellow moderator of a Victorian classics group who is Indian and lives there, for instance. Thomas Hardy isn't always very popular internationally, so I am always interested in other countries' take on his writing. Oddly, here in England he was actually removed from the school syllabus last year!

India has a long close history with England; in fact it only became independent in 1947 - far later than the than the USA. Queen Victoria became Empress of India in May 1876, exactly a hundred years after you got shot of us! Like it or not, this common history has an effect. China though, does not have such links with England (plus access to the internet is not easy there). They are not one of the 56 countries in the Commonwealth of Nations, and do not wish to be.

But this is all very much off the topic, which is the final 7 chapters of Tess of the D'Urbervilles (plus reflections on the whole novel). It's an interesting topic for sure, but if we continue this discussion it should be in the Kings Arms Hotel chat thread, please.

Thanks.

Oh, those Western fallen women. I supose I am one. I laughed. Thanks for posting. peace, janz

Peacejanz wrote: "Oh, those Western fallen women. I supose I am one. I laughed. Thanks for posting. peace, janz"

Yes Peacejanz, there's such a difference in 19th and 20th century attitudes, (never mind 21st century ones!) but that's partly Thomas Hardy was trying to address, by subtitling Tess of the D'Urbervilles "A Pure Woman".

Well, I am 80 years old this year and I can not keep up with the current attitudes so I am just going to keep wearing purple and a red hat when I want to. Thanks for the info - I never knew the subtitle, or I never noticed it. peace, janz

I love that, Janz!

the school that meets in our building was having a literary character day. I rented a Victorian suit and decided to be William Boldwood from Madding Crowd or Alec d'Urberville.

Mark, very good idea.

Both of them are sometimes almost neglected by us - Boldwood as obsessive, in short, nuts, and Alec as our perfect villain.

However Alec belongs, like Troy, to an interesting category called by J.Bailey in an essay back in 1946 to the 'Mephistophelian visitants' (the phrase is written by Hardy himself in The Return of the Native).

Alec, studied by Bailey seems to be one of those. But Bailey didn't mention the man who paints Bible verses in red on walls and is recurring several times in Tess.

that Alec became an itinerant preacher for a while I think is especially interesting plot twist in the novel. the question I have is if Hardy is suggesting that there was something in Alec character that could be Redemptive but he never chose it? or is he making a comment about hypocrisy in the clergy?

Mark wrote: "that Alec became an itinerant preacher for a while I think is especially interesting plot twist in the novel ..."

Yes, I can never see this novel in black and white, with Alec as an archetypal villain. There are so many more shades to him.

Claudia and Mark, I think you would both get a lot out of reading our 6 discussion threads about this novel when you have the time! We go into this, and the layers of Tess's character quite a lot.

Nice idea Mark 😊

Claudia, I was scratching my head over your "J. Bailey" and then thought of the Oxford academic and literary critic John Bayley, who was married to the novelist and philosopher Iris Murdoch. He was writing at around that time. Is this who you mean, perhaps? It sounds like a interesting essay; which book is it in?

Yes, Jean, this essay is definitely interesting! I found it on JSTOR. Just enter "Mephistophelian visitants" (the phrase came up relating to Diggory Venn) and you should easily get it. If you don't, just tell and I will post the link. However you will have to log in to JSTOR but I guess you already have.

Indeed I will have a look into the Tess threads.

Mark: indeed, it's also interesting that Alec was a preacher for a while. Good question, but I would think that Hardy wanted to show hypocrisy. It is also the case with the man with the red paint. He misspells or alters Bible verses, as if he were writing his own Gospel.

Alec is Mephistophelian in many ways: turns up when you least expect him, under various costumes, playing with Tess's soul and finally buying it when she and her family is in a very dire situation.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/459110

Thank you Claudia! It's not my view of him at all, but it's good to read critical interpretations that are at variance with your own.

Happy May Day! Beautiful scene in the 2008 adaptation.

What a brilliant told sad novel. It was heartbreaking and I really feel for Tess. I loved the way Thomas Hardy tackles difficult subjects. Thank you everyone for your wonderful insights and Jean for all your co-ordination and hard work pulling this together. I look forward to the next TH slow read with you as our guide.

Stephen wrote: "What a brilliant told sad novel. It was heartbreaking and I really feel for Tess. I loved the way Thomas Hardy tackles difficult subjects. Thank you everyone for your wonderful insights and Jean fo..."

Stephen, I felt exactly the same when I finished "Tess" the first time, and the second time I read it too.

Stephen wrote: "What a brilliant told sad novel. It was heartbreaking and I really feel for Tess. I loved the way Thomas Hardy tackles difficult subjects. Thank you everyone for your wonderful insights and Jean for all your co-ordination and hard work pulling this together..."

It is such an amzing novel, isn't it? And I'm looking forward to you joining us "live" too, Stephen 😊