Bright Young Things discussion

Welcome to March's group read of Spring Snow.

Enjoy!

I have the book out from the library, now I just need to find time to read it...still catching up with Feb reads.

Me too! I started it once before, but I didn't get very far.

Same here, I've got this one out of the library but haven't made a start as yet.

Is anyone making any progress with this one? I have it out from the library and read the first few pages. It looks great, but I've been too involved in the Orwell bio to get to this one. Of course, there's still plenty of time....

I got part way into chapter 2 is all. I hope the characters start to become more distinct, or I may have trouble keeping them apart.

Totally forgot about this. Will reserve a copy.

Will start this soon. Translation? Problematic, as in different translations. Harder to read etc.

Got it! My copy is a 1972 edition. I wonder if there is difference with modern translations...

Will start once finished with Vermilion Sands.

I have read some of this now. The language is good and well translated, by Michael Gallagher in my library copy.
There are things I don't quite get though, such as why Kiyoaki is often described as sensitive when no sensitivity has been displayed so far and why Satoko is brave to point out that what everyone can see is a dead dog is a dead dog. Perhaps this will all make more sense when I am further into the book.

PS Now I'm confused again. In Chapter 12 the one thing I thought I knew about Kiyoaki turns out to be untrue.

Started reading it tonight!

I got to chapter 8 last night. I don't think I like Kiyoaki. He's melancholy, and spoiled, and maybe a touch mentally ill(?). Clearly he's got the hots for Satoko, why's he being such a twit about it?

Hehehe! I've only just started this. Highly poetic writing and descriptive. Good so far.

Though, Jennifer is probably correct. : )

I'm up to chapter 16. I don't think I like any of these characters, yet I'm enjoying the book. That is *incredibly* rare for me (Rabbit, Run made me damn near homicidal...). I think that is a credit to the beautiful writing, but also that these characters are realistically flawed human beings. Though I still think Kiyoaki may be crazy...

Jennifer, why do you think Kiyoaki might be crazy? He seems like a normally confused teen to me, at least so far. I'm only on chapter 13.

He certainly IS being a twit about Satoku, but that doesn't seem so unusual to me. I'm currently reading Proust and have already encountered two characters with obsessive loves that are far more extreme than Kiyoaki's...

Looking forward to finding out more about these characters.

My favorite part so far has been Honda's musings about history and our place in it. How the lowest common denominator (in the author's words) becomes what is remembered as the spirit of the age. "Those who come after us and decide what was in our minds will adopt the criterion of the uncritical thought patterns of your friends on the kendo team. In other words, they'll seize upon the most primitive and popular credos of our day. You see every era has always been characterized solely in terms of such idiocies." I've long suspected as much!

I plan on starting this weekend . I have to say that I will love the poetic descriptions. But , a while back I read a review on this one and I wish I would not have ! Oh it got a 5 star review from someone I think writes wonderful reviews ! Just now , by what is being said , I am going to have spoilers in my head . Poohy! I am going to try not to think of any of the stuff my friend said .

I will follow right along with all of you ! I promise I will not say anything to spoil your journey !!!

Dawn

I think he's trying to sabotage all of his relationships. He's already sent 1 awful letter to Satoko, and I think another one is coming. He's manipulative with Satoko, Honda, and his tutor. Even when he's trying to be "helpful" it's more about what's in it for him and how can he exert control in those situations. He sounds antisocial and depressed to me. Or maybe he's just a jerk. :)

I did like Honda's observations.

Jennifer W wrote: "I think he's trying to sabotage all of his relationships. He's already sent 1 awful letter to Satoko, and I think another one is coming. He's manipulative with Satoko, Honda, and his tutor. Even wh..."

Hmm, I see what you mean. He DOES seem like something of a jerk. So far, I've put it down to immaturity--but my opinion could change.

It could be immaturity, too. He's been very isolated and spoiled as a child and young man. He may not know how to be nice because everything's been handed to him. Hmmm, I may see some modern day parallels. :)

Yep! Immature!

Found this on the guardian website:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011...

Roisin that's a great article. I'm planning on reading this book over the weekend and I'll join in with discussions then.

Yes it is. I only know a tiny bit about the author and nothing about the book, so interesting review of his work.

What about Satoko's maturity level? Kiyoaki refers to her as toying with him or laughing at him. Is she?

I didn't see her as doing so.
Satoko asks if he would mind if she went away one day, which was her trying to find out how Kiyoaki felt about her. He sees that as some sort of joke.
Another time he can't understand why she is upset and cries all evening (in public).
Isn't his idea that she is laughing at him just Kiyoaki not getting it?

I guess I kind of see her vagueness as a bit toying. Why couldn't she say, "hey, my parents want to marry me off, doesn't that suck?" Was it the times? Or the culture?

Speaking of the times, do you get a sense of them? Does it feel like the 1910s?

The only thing that gives me the sense that it's taking place in the 1910s is that they mention the Russo-Japanese war from time to time. Otherwise, I would really have no idea when it's taking place.

Really? The descriptions place it in the past. It is definitely not modern. Yet it does have timelessness. Which means that it is more likely to appeal, perhaps?

Fiction written in the modern era (1960s in this case), about the
past are always difficult because you have to think about language, what did people say then, behave etc. It can always seem a bit forced. I prefer to read books and stories from that time rather than just about that time.

I think there would be enough cultural references to set the time fairly precisely for Japanese readers. There are mentions of the war some years earlier (1904-1905), the death of the Meiji Emperor recently (30th July 1912) and the growing western influence which happened during Meiji's reign.
Upper-class society seems to be very formal in dress, behaviour, conversation, etc. and the story would be unlikely to work in a more modern Japan. I could get a sense of what life was like then, although I could not visualise it as well as if it had been set in the UK.

Yes, I spotted those that is why I found the comments before a bit strange, I was just talking generally about fictional modernist accounts of the past, they can seem be a bit forced. Don't feel that way about this. I'm actually enjoying the descriptions in this.

Yes you are right about the behaviour and mannerisms, as I said before definitely not modern, so works well for me so far.

I think I have a hard time placing it because I'm not familiar enough with Japan's history. In my mind, Japan was like this book portrays: cherry blossoms, geisha dancers, kimonos and military school up until 1980 and then car manufacturing, pop culture and ubertechnology took over. I know that can't possibly be correct, but I don't have the knowledge to fill in the blanks.

The Japan represented in this book is the Japan I would want to visit. It all seems so serene and timeless.

Until the Americans bombed the hell out of it. People forget that not only did it have to modernise because because the nuke bombs, but because the USA did a massive bombing campaign and flattened most of Japan. A friend went there recently, had no idea how much of Japan had been destroyed during WW2.

Roisin wrote: "Really? The descriptions place it in the past. It is definitely not modern. Yet it does have timelessness. Which means that it is more likely to appeal, perhaps?"

True, Roisin. It is definitely taking place in the past. But for me, it really could be any time between say 1880 and the 1920s...I just don't know enough about Japan to say yes, this is happening in the 1910s. Obviously, I realize it's not taking place in the 21st century--the wooden clogs, kimonos, lacquered hair, carriages, etc, all place it in the past.

I've been paying more attention to the psychology of the characters, the timelessness of love, jealousy, teenage angst, etc...

Yes sure, the themes should be enough to grab anyone.

Roisin wrote: "Until the Americans bombed the hell out of it. People forget that not only did it have to modernise because because the nuke bombs, but because the USA did a massive bombing campaign and flattened ..."

Oh, for sure. The US destroyed so much of the country, they had to specifically spare some cities so they could see the true force of the A-bombs.

Being that this was written after WWII, do you get a sense of the author's hindsight in the writing?

I don't know. Not sure I'm far enough in to get a sense of that.

Interesting point though...

I just finished this

Please click here to read my review

I've read the first few chapters now and I'm finding the writing captivating. Nothing much has happened yet, but I'm intrigued. I haven't read the posts above properly yet, as I don't want to spoil things for myself, but as far as time setting is concerned, the descriptions of dress and conventions seem very well placed in the late 19th/early 20th century. It's more datable than some other books I've read where I've been out by centuries!

How's everyone doing with this? I just finished chapter 37 and things are starting to shake loose. The young lovers will have to make some tough decisions. I'm not sure what they will decide. Something tells me that we're not headed for a happily ever after, though!

I finished this today, I have mixed feelings as I did think the writing was good, but I can't say I enjoyed reading it.

I couldn't quite stay awake last night to finish it. I've gotten to the part where Satoko has taken her vows. I did not see that coming! I thought for sure she was going to kill herself! Especially when her mom was looking at the overpass bridge or whatever it was- I was certain Satoko was going to throw herself right over!

To the ending!

Sigh... what tragedy!

^Jennifer, I didn't see that coming either. There were lots of twists and turns towards the end.

I agree with what others have said previously. Kiyoaki comes off as very arrogant and selfish in the beginning, but he is 19 and I think he is just an immature teenager who is lonely and struggling to form emotional connections with others because of the way he has been brought up - essentially passed off to the Ayakuras and spending most of his time with his tutor. His dad isn't exactly a great role model for relationships with women either. I think he's struggling to define himself and his relationship to others – his friend, Honda, Satoko, his family - and is really quite a lost young man.

One of the things I found interesting was the way Mishima writes about the fading of the old Japanese ways of life and the rise of Western influence - such as when they have afternoon at Prince Toin's house. I agree that's hard to place the time period - at the start they refer to the Russo-Japanese war, which ended in 1905 when Kiyoaki was about 11 - if he is 19 in the rest of the story, it must be just before the start of WW1?

I liked the writing - very elegant, and the vivid imagery. I thought he made some interesting points - such as the old physical wars being over and the new wars being wars of emotion.

I've also been reading more about Mishima himself - what an intriguing character! He attended the Peers School that Kiyoaki goes to and studied law like Honda. He was also a fifth grade kendo master. Fascinatingly, and tragically, he committed ritual suicide after writing the last word of the last book in this series of books. He was only 45.

This New York Times article (from the 1970s) gives more about Mishima's life and work - though slightly spoiler-y for the later books in the series:https://www.nytimes.com/books/98/10/2...

I agree about the beauty of the writing. By the end of the book, I really could feel the sorrows and angst of these characters.

I've already taken the next book out from the library. Usually I don't read books in a series one right after the other, but it seems that the next book is going to be vastly different from this one. I could set up a "hot read" if anyone wants to continue the series with me.

I've given up on this book. I have other things and new books that I am itching to read. There was some beautiful writing but not enough story to hold me. It probably gets better later on. The main character is a ...(choose your own expletives : ) I might go back to it...maybe...