Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Angel returns home. His parents are shocked at the change in his appearance. He writes to Tess and receives a letter from her mother. He cries when he receives Tess’ letters forwarded to him from Brazil. He also receives the letter from Izz and Marion. Angel looks for Tess at Flintcomb-Ash, then at Marlott. He locates Tess’ mother who tells him Tess is at Sandbourne.

At Sandbourne, Angel asks for Mrs. Clare and is directed to Mrs. D’Urberville’s home. He thinks Tess is working as a maid there. He is shown into the front room. Tess appears, richly attired. He asks her to forgive him, but she repeats it is too late. She tells him she waited and waited but Alec convinced her he would never come back for her. Angel finally understands and declares, “Ah—it is my fault!” Tess sends him away.

Once again, violence takes place off the stage. Mrs. Brooks sees the blood on the ceiling and she and a neighbor discover Alec on the bed, stabbed with a knife. Tess chases after Angel and confesses to the murder. They run off to the countryside, eventually taking shelter in an abandoned mansion. They escape detection but are finally captured at Stonehenge where Tess is arrested. Tess hangs for her crime. Angel and Liza-Lu observe the hanging from a distance.

Hardy’s subtitle for the novel is “a pure woman faithfully presented.” Tess is raped or seduced by one man, stays with him and accepts his gifts after the rape/seduction, has his child out of wedlock, marries a man who abandons her, and then murders the first man when he gets in the way of her happiness. In what sense—if any—can she be considered pure?

I’m re-reading George Orwell’s essays, and this paragraph struck me as relevant to our discussion. In “Why I Write,” George Orwell argues there is a political purpose to writing:

Political purpose – using the word ‘political’ in the widest possible sense. Desire to push the world in a certain direction, to alter other people’s idea of the kind of society that they should strive after. Once again, no book is genuinely free from political bias. The opinion that art should have nothing to do with politics is itself a political attitude.

If Orwell is correct that no book is free from political bias, what is Hardy’s political intention in this novel?

If this is your first reading of the novel, what did you think of it? And if this is a re-read, did you see it differently this time around?

Tamara wrote: "Hardy’s subtitle for the novel is “a pure woman faithfully presented.” Tess is raped or seduced by one man, stays with him and accepts his gifts after the rape/seduction, has his child out of wedlo..."

Does she kill him because he got in the way of her happiness though? Or does she snap when she realizes that Alec has utterly destroyed her, body and soul?

From the first when she was innocent, Alec uses his position of power over her to make her into a Victorian pariah. Whether he raped her or railroaded her, it makes little difference - he's so drastically coersive and deceptive that it is really tantamount to rape.

And then, toward the end of the book when she has finally utterly despaired so she is in the vulnerable position of having no hope, no dream, no faith or belief in even her own value, Alec presses her again until she takes the act of supreme self-destruction in destroying all that is proud or good within herself by surrendering to him. To me, it feels like her seeking oblivion because everything is so intolerable and hopeless; that is why she finally surrenders.

From a Victorian standpoint, once she had sex with Alec the first time, regardless of the circumstances, she was forever tied to him, practically married to him and spoiled for all other men. He wasn't married to her, but she was in a sense married to him. That's why just after she marries Angel, she worries if she is really Alec's wife instead.

If Tess or Angel were intellectual rebels, it would be different. But they aren't; she believes in essence what the culture tells her; she is guided by what Victorian culture and religious belief tells her she should be as a woman. She is internally the Victorian ideal of a self sacrificing, "pure" woman, and Alec manipulates that set of strong social and religious conventions to destroy her. Look at Tess' guilt at deceiving Angel, at her pushing the note under the door. She believes she has been "spoiled" by Alec on some level, and she takes for granted that is how Angel would see it. It is against her own interest and happiness to let him know, but it is how a pure Victorian woman would be compelled to act.

That tagline to the title feels provocative to me on Hardy's part, as if to rub the consequences in his Victorian readers' faces of all of these strict Victorian social and religious coventions that make Tess into a perfect victim and that ultimately destroy her. It is because she is pure in the beginning that everything else can happen.

Hardy suggests more than once that if Tess and Angel had been left in their "natural" state and not had their thinking and nature distorted by all of these confining human conventions, neither of them would ever have acted so foolishly and destructively (or self destructively).

Susanna wrote: "Did Tess kill Alec in order to save Angel's life? It's likely that Alec and Angel would have dueled over her, and Alec would have probably killed Angel."

No. We're going outside of the text here to assume anything like this could happen or to assume Angel's life was in any danger. All we know for sure is Angel leaves. Tess follows him and confesses she murdered Alec because he taunted her and insulted Angel.

I agree with Greg. She kills him because he, in essence, has killed her. The final insult is that he made her believe that Angel would never come back, and then Angel does come back and she is twice as ruined as before -- or so she sees it. She's gone from being a lovely, optimistic country girl to a kept woman in cynical finery, and it's mostly Alec's fault.

I see the "pure" as provocative, or ironic, or both.

Here's an alternate ending: Tess leaves Alec, joins Angel, they forgive each other and go to Brazil to live happily ever after. Why can't she do that?

Roger wrote: "Here's an alternate ending: Tess leaves Alec, joins Angel, they forgive each other and go to Brazil to live happily ever after. Why can't she do that?"

She can do that. But that would turn the novel into a fairy tale, and Hardy didn't write fairy tales.

Roger wrote: "Here's an alternate ending: Tess leaves Alec, joins Angel, they forgive each other and go to Brazil to live happily ever after. Why can't she do that?"

Ha ha, if they hadn't internalized all those Victorian gender ideas and social/religious conventions, I suppose they could have. But of course, then, they would be totally different people. All of that is so fundamental to their psychology.

Any thoughts on why Hardy the pessimist decided to “reward” Angel with Tess’s little sister Liza-Lou?

Emily wrote: "Any thoughts on why Hardy the pessimist decided to “reward” Angel with Tess’s little sister Liza-Lou?"

Tess has demonstrated a selfless concern for her family all the way through the novel. I don't see this as a "reward" for Angel. I see it more as a final act on Tess' part to ensure her sister will be looked after.

Hardy ends Tess’ life with the line, "'Justice' was done, and the President of the Immortals, in the Aeschylean phrase, had ended his sport with Tess." which I believe he is referring to Prometheus Bound (which is the first book I read with this group). This along with Tess being arrested at Stonehenge lead me to believe Tess is being “sacrificed” for Angels happiness and Liza-Lu is part of that (the modern reader in me wonders how Liza-Lu feels about this).

This was my first time reading Hardy and I absolutely loved the poetic descriptions. The overwhelming sense of dread for Tess was something I cannot really say I have felt too often reading fiction before. I plan on reading more of Hardy’s work.

Tamara wrote: "Tess has demonstrated a selfless concern for her family all the way through the novel. I don't see this as a "reward" for Angel. I see it more as a final act on Tess' part to ensure her sister will be looked after."

This is how I read it as well Tamara.

Tess is so selfless, always concerned about others and often judging herself far too harshly; she blames herself for so many things that are just normal and human. I imagine Liza-Lou is in quite a precarious position given her parents' situation, and Tess wants to be sure that her sister will never go through horrors such as what she has endured.

It also becomes a way for Angel to demonstrate his remorse and at least try in some small way to make up for some of the damage he has done. I find it moving how affected Angel and Liza-Lou are when the flag is raised and how they hold hands. The tenderness and the way they turn to each other for support touched me.

Mike wrote: "This was my first time reading Hardy and I absolutely loved the poetic descriptions."

Me too Mike!

There are many passages that I find extraordinarily beautiful, and I especially love the suggestiveness and metaphoric/symbolic elements and repeated motifs. I like that sometimes there is a little Mystery to those elements as well on occasion, like the halo in this passage way back in an earlier chapter:

"Each pedestrian could see no halo but his or her own, which never deserted the head-shadow, whatever its vulgar unsteadiness might be; but adhered to it, and persistently beautified it; till the erratic motions seemed an inherent part of the irradiation, and the fumes of their breathing a component of the night's mist; and the spirit of the scene, and of the moonlight, and of Nature, seemed harmoniously to mingle with the spirit of wine."

Just gorgeous, and there are so many interpretations I can think of in this passage, with this private symbol of holiness that everyone has but no one else can see and that somehow, no vulgarity of any kind can ever blot out.

There is just so much richness to the text. I regret that I've been away from Goodreads for a while and couldn't re-read this with the group from the beginning. There are some passages in this novel so beautiful as to be unforgettable.

It has been a number of years since I first read the novel. I re-read it to prepare for this discussion. Because I’m no longer the same person I was when I first read it decades ago, I didn’t see it in quite the same way as I did then. I understand Tess better than I did in the past and am more sensitive to her victimization. But I continue to be frustrated with her proclivity for self-blame and lack of self-advocacy. I also found myself getting increasingly angry with Angel whereas I was more forgiving of him in the past.

On the plus side, I have developed a much greater appreciation for Hardy as a writer. I am gob-smacked at his ability to immerse the reader in the Wessex countryside. His attention to detail is astonishing. He conjures up the sights, sounds, and smells of the countryside in ways I had mostly overlooked in the past in my eagerness to find out what happens next in the novel. Somehow, I had failed to observe the lushness and beauty and vivid imagery of his prose.

I also appreciate Hardy’s political orientation. I see the novel as a plea for social and economic justice. In Tess he has created a character who is victimized by everyone she encounters, by the rigid precepts of a male-dominated society and sexual double standard, by her gender socialization, and by an inhospitable culture that exploits the poor and that privileges men over women at every turn. Hardy’s articulation of these injustices in 1892 is remarkable and a testament to his intellect and his sensitivity. Tess’ death at the end of the novel signifies the strangulation of the purity and innocence she represents at the hands of a cruel and unjust world.

I see Hardy’s plea for social justice as an act of hope. It reflects an optimistic conviction that social and economic justice is possible, that a change for the better is possible. I see the novel as a warning, not as a prophecy. By showing us the cruel injustices Tess suffers, he is, in effect, advocating for change. Things don’t have to be this way, he tells us. They can—and should—be different.

Tamara wrote: "It has been a number of years since I first read the novel. I re-read it to prepare for this discussion. Because I’m no longer the same person I was when I first read it decades ago, I didn’t see i..."

I completely agree with all of ths Tamara!

His plea for justice and change on a social, economic, and gender level feels so strong! From the few books of his that I've read, that component just seemed to get stronger and stronger the longer he lived. And I have not yet read his last novel Jude the Obscure, but from the little I know of it, that component carried on, perhaps even more so.

Oddly, I also see his work as acts of hope too. I love that you say that! :)

Many of my offline and online friends find them "depressing", but personally, his novels don't depress me in the way that other philosophically bleak novels do. They make me sad; they make me angry and occasionally quite frustrated, but I feel no nihilism in them at all. I feel Hardy straining and straining to be heard! That is not the listlessness of despair.

I also agree with Tamara and Greg I simply love your last paragraph. I too, have been told many times that he is depressing, and I also do not find them depressing. I dislike depressing books but Hardy's are high tragedy. I am in complete agreement as to the lack of nihilism.

Rereading Tess a few years ago kicked me off on a sustained bout of reading Hardy. I've read 8 of his books now (though not Jude), most recently his enjoyable collection of stories, Wessex Tales.

Tess remains my favourite, closely followed by Far From the Madding Crowd which I highly recommend to anyone who loved the poetic descriptions here. Another, almost forgotten Hardy novel that I found intensely enjoyable (and it is rather more comic than tragic) was The Hand of Ethelberta -- don't let the title dissuade you. Both FFtMC and THoE feature female protagonists who are very different from Tess, strong-willed, business-minded women who make their own ways in the world. They are flawed, but strong.

Emily, thanks for the mention of The Hand of Ethelberta! I had never even heard of that one - I'll look for it. From your description, it sounds intriguing.

I love that you have read so many of his books! I find when I do that with authors, it often gives me so much insight into their way of thinking, after having seen how they approach things from different angles.

Greg wrote: "Roger wrote: "Here's an alternate ending: Tess leaves Alec, joins Angel, they forgive each other and go to Brazil to live happily ever after. Why can't she do that?"

Ha ha, if they hadn't internal..."

Yes, they would be different people. Tess especially seems to easily fall into the idea that she is doomed and must suffer. Does she ever take pleasure in anything? Maybe milking cows.

Mike wrote: "Hardy ends Tess’ life with the line, "'Justice' was done, and the President of the Immortals, in the Aeschylean phrase, had ended his sport with Tess." which I believe he is referring to Prometheus..."

The fact that Hardy placed "Justice" in quotation marks spoke volumes to me. Justice has not been served--at least, not by society's understanding of crime and punishment. The crimes of the men go unpunished by society; Tess takes that punishment into her own hands. A political novel? Absolutely!

And I second the thanks for suggestions on other Hardy novels to read next. I have only read an obscure one called A Pair of Blue Eyes, and that so long ago that I couldn't tell you a thing about it.

Kathy wrote: "And I second the thanks for suggestions on other Hardy novels to read next. ..."

I've read The Mayor of Casterbridge, Far From the Madding Crowd, The Return of the Native, and Jude the Obscure. They all address issues of social and economic justice in one form or another. And they're all great.

It's been a number of years since I last read a couple of them, so it's probably time for a re-read.

Tamara wrote: "Kathy wrote: "And I second the thanks for suggestions on other Hardy novels to read next. ..."

I've read The Mayor of Casterbridge, Far From the Madding Crowd, "

Of these four, I've read The Return of the Native, but I haven't read the other three yet. Is there one that you would particularly recommend? I'd been thinking that I'd read Jude the Obscure next, but I'm not sure.

They're all good, but my favorites are Far From the Madding Crowd with the spirited Bathsheba Everdene, and his last novel, Jude the Obscure.

Tamara wrote: "They're all good, but my favorites are Far From the Madding Crowd with the spirited Bathsheba Everdene, and his last novel, Jude the Obscure."

Thanks Tamara!

You're welcome, Greg. I hope you enjoy them.

Tamara wrote: "You're welcome, Greg. I hope you enjoy them."

So far, I've enjoyed ever novel or poem I've read by Hardy; so I expect I will! :)

Jude the Obscure is a downer. There is one couple left intact at the end of the book, and they're miserable.

Maybe some will be interested in this poem of Hardy's that has been posted in another Hardy themed group? It's written from the perspective of Tess and particularly affecting with the novel fresh in mind, I think:

Tess’s Lament

I

I would that folk forgot me quite,
   Forgot me quite!
I would that I could shrink from sight,
   And no more see the sun.
Would it were time to say farewell,
To claim my nook, to need my knell,
Time for them all to stand and tell
   Of my day’s work as done.

II

Ah! dairy where I lived so long,
   I lived so long;
Where I would rise up stanch and strong,
   And lie down hopefully.
'Twas there within the chimney-seat
He watched me to the clock’s slow beat -
Loved me, and learnt to call me sweet,
   And whispered words to me.

III

And now he’s gone; and now he’s gone; . . .
   And now he’s gone!
The flowers we potted p’rhaps are thrown
   To rot upon the farm.
And where we had our supper-fire
May now grow nettle, dock, and briar,
And all the place be mould and mire
   So cozy once and warm.

IV

And it was I who did it all,
   Who did it all;
'Twas I who made the blow to fall
   On him who thought no guile.
Well, it is finished—past, and he
Has left me to my misery,
And I must take my Cross on me
   For wronging him awhile.

V

How gay we looked that day we wed,
   That day we wed!
“May joy be with ye!” all o’m said
   A standing by the durn.
I wonder what they say o’s now,
And if they know my lot; and how
She feels who milks my favourite cow,
   And takes my place at churn!

VI

It wears me out to think of it,
   To think of it;
I cannot bear my fate as writ,
   I’d have my life unbe;
Would turn my memory to a blot,
Make every relic of me rot,
My doings be as they were not,
   And what they’ve brought to me!

Greg wrote: "Maybe some will be interested in this poem of Hardy's that has been posted in another Hardy themed group? It's written from the perspective of Tess and particularly affecting with the novel fresh i..."

It's pretty depressing. Did someone in the Hardy themed group write it?

Tamara wrote: "Greg wrote: "Maybe some will be interested in this poem of Hardy's that has been posted in another Hardy themed group? It's written from the perspective of Tess and particularly affecting with the ..."

No, this is wriiten by Hardy. He wrote multiple poems about Tess in the years after finishing the novel.

Apparently, Hardy became somewhat obsessed with the figure of Tess.

Yes, that’s an understatement! I believe he also was a little obsessed with Eustacia Vye, jussi based on how her character changes throughout Return of the Native.

Hardy modeled Tess on Augusta Bugler, a milkmaid he knew when he was a young man. Years later, he bumped into Augusta. She was married and running a hotel. Hardy set up his theatrical Troupe, the Hardy Players, in her hotel. When he put on a local production of Tess, he cast Augusta's daughter, Gertrude, in the leading role. He became obsessed with both Gertrude/Tess. He was in his 80s and she was in her 20s at the time.

Since our discussion is winding down, I just want to say a quick but heartfelt thank you to those who participated. I must have said this many times, but it’s the truth: I always get so much more out of a book when I read it with this group than when reading it alone. And Tess was no exception.

Hardy was a great novelist and ahead of his time in so many ways. That we approached his novel from different angles and articulated different interpretations made the discussion all the more interesting for me. I hope it did the same for you.

Thank you, again, for making this reading a rewarding experience.

Thank you Tamara for the wonderful organized administration of the reading, and everyone for the conversation. I found this book particularly rewarding to discuss since there was so much (civil!) disagreement. It's just great when people can approach a book so distinctly and all find so much to admire.

Yes, thank you Tamara! I only had the chance to participate toward the end, but I still enjoyed it.

Thanks too for your comment about Gertrude; very interesting! (and a little disturbing). I had not heard about his modeling Tess off a real life character before. I wonder what Augusta thought about the whole thing?

You're all very welcome.

Greg wrote: "Thanks too for your comment about Gertrude; very interesting! (and a little disturbing). I had not heard about his modeling Tess off a real life character before. I wonder what Augusta thought about the whole thing?.."

I don't know what Augusta thought about his "obsession" with Gertrude/Tess, but I imagine his wife wasn't too thrilled.

Tamara wrote: "I don't know what Augusta thought about his "obsession" with Gertrude/Tess, but I imagine his wife wasn't too thrilled."

I imagine so!

A lot of great writers didn't make the greatest husbands, it seems.

I mean, in Hardy's case, he did make half a career of writing pessimistically about marriage.

Thank you Tamara.

You're welcome, Mike. I hope you enjoyed it.

Yes, thanks! Such a great opportunity to reread this novel with your discerning minds!

At first, I didn't "get" Hardy. I thought his writing was like a woodsman hacking at the language leaving heavy marks. I had expected perhaps Flaubert? But Hardy was indeed an Englishman and a fine cabinet-maker with dovetail joints and marbled Maplewood, polished and caressed.

In the end, I said, wha? 50 chapters of milking cows and picking "swedes" (rutabagas) from the dirt. Then a few short chapters and wham bam she slaughters the rapist, holds her true love close, is captured (in Stonehenge) and hanged for being the heathen she was, the good kind, like Norma the Druid Priestess.
I could comprehend Hardy's lavishing so much atmosphere on the bucolic paradise of Tess' origin. She was truly a woman of the soil, and pure in that aspect. I'll miss her.