Reading the 20th Century discussion

Welcome to our Feb 23 buddy read of Super-Infinite: The Transformations of John Donne by Katherine Rundell and Winner of the Baillie Gifford Prize for Non-Fiction 2022.

John Donne lived myriad lives.

Sometime religious outsider and social disaster, sometime celebrity preacher and establishment darling, John Donne was incapable of being just one thing. He was a scholar of law, a sea adventurer, an MP, a priest, the Dean of St Paul's Cathedral - and perhaps the greatest love poet in the history of the English language. He converted from Catholicism to Protestantism, was imprisoned for marrying a high-born girl without her father's consent, struggled to feed a family of ten children and was often ill and in pain. He was a man who suffered from black surges of sadness, yet expressed in his verse electric joy and love.

From a standout scholar, a biography of John Donne: the poet of love, sex, and death. In Super-Infinite, Katherine Rundell embarks on a fleet-footed 'act of evangelism', showing us the many sides of Donne's extraordinary life, his obsessions, his blazing words, and his tempestuous Elizabethan times - unveiling Donne as the most remarkable mind and as a lesson in living.

Everyone is welcome to join in.

Super-Infinite: The Transformations of John Donne future buddy read is currently £2.59

Susan wrote: "Super-Infinite: The Transformations of John Donne future buddy read is currently £2.59"

I just came across this thread. I purchased this book and would enjoy reading it with others. I feel like I could use some input and would offer my own.

Good to hear, John. It is one of the non-fiction buddy reads we have featured for this year. The discussion is mooted for February, but feel welcome to add comments at any time.

Susan wrote: "Good to hear, John. It is one of the non-fiction buddy reads we have featured for this year. The discussion is mooted for February, but feel welcome to add comments at any time."

Thanks Susan. I look forward to it. John Donne is one of English literature's more interesting characters.

Yes, also the book won the Baillie Gifford prize this year.
https://thebailliegiffordprize.co.uk/
The site has some interesting information and links.

I have started this now and I don't have much reading time at the moment, but I am, immediately, loving it. The author is portraying Elizabethan London so well alongside the biography of her subject. I had no idea his mother was the great-niece of Thomas More and knowing his family were from dispossesed Catholic landowners, already makes the story so much more interesting. She also makes a good point that the Great Fire of 1666 lost so many documents and that obviously means so much that could have been available was lost.

This was an enjoyable, wide-ranging interview.

https://conversationswithtyler.com/ep...

A friend gave me a copy of the book today. Hope to start it next week.

Good to hear, Stephen. Hope you enjoy it and look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Ben wrote: "This was an enjoyable, wide-ranging interview.

https://conversationswithtyler.com/ep..."

That was outstanding. She is brilliant. Thank you for sharing.

I made a brief start - while I like Rundell's sparky writing, I'm finding that I'm not getting a sense of Donne himself, he's sort of escaping between her lines which draw attention to her own enthusiasm.

Interested in what others feel about this.

Interesting comment RC. I suppose part of me would ask how do we get a sense of any historical figure. Even good sources may be filtered through a particular lens or the writer may have a certain agenda.
I'm thinking of Albert Schweitzer's famous book from 1905, The Quest of the Historical Jesus, a book that has sparked many other books and revisions since.

But that's a pity if you are not getting a sense of Donne. I hope to start it soon.

I definitely think I had a good sense of him by the end of the book. So much of his life was affected by his religion, his marriage, his ambition. I think you will change your opinion by the end of the book, RC. I have to say that I knew very little about him before starting this and I am not sure I particularly liked him after reading this, but I found his journey interesting. I also thought the author managed to write a historical biography which did enlarge on the period but didn't lose sense of the person she was writing about as she went on.

Thanks, both.

Stephen, yes, any biography only gives the view of that author and their interpretation of the sources they're using - but I don't feel I'm really getting anything from Rundell so far.

Susan, yes, I hope so and I am only a few chapters in so maybe it builds up.

I do know about Donne's life as I've done quite a lot of work on his writing, mainly his poetry.

Other biographers tend to fall into the easy split of Jack Donne, the man about town, and Dr Donne the Dean... but don't really succeed in tracing the transformation of one into the other. So maybe I'm going in with too high expectations?

As I had no prior knowledge, it was undoubtedly more interesting to me. I preferred the man about town, but it was interesting to see that people, fairly long ago, had to make similar compromises to aid their career as they do now. They may be different in theme, as in no longer religious, but still, people may want to do one thing and end up in another line in order to make a living.

True, and undoubtedly the case when religious allegiance was so fraught and dangerous.

But there's also the question of to what extent modern biographers interpret historical subjects through modern frameworks to make them understandable, just like us.

The Stubb biography of Donne does that (John Donne: The Reformed Soul: A Biography, bypassing the poetry, largely, and making him a man struggling with ambition and authority.

I do think Rundell's writing is stylistically brilliant - but she's young in academic terms, still working on her PhD. I agree this is an excellent read for anyone coming to Donne's life for the first time as it's lively and accessible and keeps the chapters short.

She's done fantastically well then, to win a major prize so early!

Definitely - and her writing is marvelous.

I'm being picky as I don't think she has anything new to say about Donne, at least so far.

I’ve listened to Rundell on two interviews on YouTube. She is absolutely brilliant and a joy to listen to.

I have attempted to read his poetry and I struggle with it. I do not know if that is more about Donne or me. The idea of some super and still fresh wunderkind — as portrayed by Rundell — eludes me.

John wrote: "I do think the book may be a bit derivative in terms of either biography or scholarship. It is more of a paean to Donne from an admirer."

Yes, I think you're absolutely right, John. Nothing wrong with that and I'm also a great admirer of Donne as a poet. I do think that I wasn't the right reader for this book but wouldn't want to put anyone else off, especially if you're new to Donne's life.

Donne's poetry is wonderful but it does require some work as he is intellectually dense and erudite with the typical extravagant and witty conceits so favoured by the metaphysicals.

You might want to try his The Flea, The Sun Rising and/or To His Mistress Going to Bed as they all have clear narratives (though can also be productively analysed through close readings). I'm not religious but also like his Holy Sonnets a lot - try the one that starts 'Batter my heart'.

Roman Clodia wrote: "John wrote: "I do think the book may be a bit derivative in terms of either biography or scholarship. It is more of a paean to Donne from an admirer."

Yes, I think you're absolutely right, John. N..."

Thanks Roman. I have purchased an edition of his selected poems and will read the ones you suggested.

I do credit Rundell with making Donne a fascinating subject.

I do hope you enjoy the poetry, John - do let us know here.

It is often the case, I think, that when you are particularly informed about something (in your case, Donne's poetry) that a biography adds little and can be disappointing. I think this sounds a better read for those, like myself, who are less knowledgeable.

Yes, I think that's right, Susan. I had been hoping that Rundell might have come across new sources or have a newly-informed take on the full arc of Donne's life. I do hope it sends more people to his poetry as well.

I suppose it was all new to me. I loved that he was born on Bread Street (wonder what they did there?!) in view of St Paul's where he both worked and died. It links to the Rose Macauley, I am currently reading, where the characters are pulled to the ruins around St Paul's after the blitz. When you read of the great fire of London and all the events around that area, it is amazing that the church is still there. I shall look more respectfully next time I pass.

I will say this book single-handedly spurred my interest in Donne. I am an old English major and when I was in college, which is 40 years ago now, I don’t recall studying a single poem by Donne. English departments go through changing tastes like anything else. I would not be surprised to learn that he is studied more these days.

Susan wrote: "When you read of the great fire of London and all the events around that area, it is amazing that the church is still there. ."

Not the St Paul's that Donne could see - that was destroyed in the Great Fire. The present one (that made that tremendous picture during the Blitz) was designed by Christopher Wren to replace Old St Paul's.

John wrote: "I will say this book single-handedly spurred my interest in Donne. I am an old English major and when I was in college, which is 40 years ago now, I don’t recall studying a single poem by Donne."

That's a shame, but nice to have the chance to catch up now.

As to whether he's studied here in the UK, it's pretty much down to individual lecturers: the only more or less compulsory Renaissance poet these days is Shakespeare.

I don't remember anything to do with Donne in English lessons at school, although I only went up to O-Level. I only knew of him at that time because my best friend had a thing about Peter Wimsey, who quoted his poetry, and she became interested, and so I got to know some of them.

I will admit that I'm only about halfway through, and I don't like Donne the person. Rundell tried to acquit him of misogyny, but I don't think she succeeded.

There is an interesting dichotomy about his life that I had an inkling about before starting this book. A compelling poetic rake as a young man and then the author of intensely spiritual sonnets as an elder. I may have distilled that down too much, but it seems that way.

Camille Paglia has a poetic study entitled Break, Blow, Burn. The title comes from a Donne poem.

She does a close reading of 43 poems — an essay for each one. The book has three Donne poems, which is the most of any poet (Theodore Roethke ties him with three).

It is an excellent book and the explications of the Donne poems she chose are clear and erudite.

Rundell points out that Donne used 340 words that were accounted for as a first in the Oxford English Dictionary.

Among them are bystander, emancipation, and jig.

John wrote: "Rundell points out that Donne used 340 words that were accounted for as a first in the Oxford English Dictionary.

Among them are bystander, emancipation, and jig."

The English language was indeed being made to explode in this period with new words. It's well recognised that Shakespeare invented words but so did Philip Sidney and Edmund Spenser: amazement, gurgling, invulnerable, jovial, lawlessness, memorise, pallid, sarcasm, transfix, unassailable, as a selection - some from Latin, some from Greek, some from Anglo-Saxon.

Great interview between two writers who have written full length studies of Donne — one of them our own Rundell.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-lgVW2M...

I thought this was a really good book and the prose sparkled and shone. For me it was a great introduction to the life and works of John Donne.
I also loved the two interviews that have been posted.
Has anyone here tried Katherine Rundell's children's books?

I thought this was a really good book and the prose sparkled and shone. For me it was a great introduction to the life and works of John Donne.
I also loved the two interviews that have been posted.
Has anyone here tried Katherine Rundell's children's books?

Yep, the prose is fantastic - glad you enjoyed this, Stephen. Did you get on better with Donne's poetry?

I think my daughter read, 'The Explorer,' when she was younger. I definitely seem to recall the cover, Stephen, and I think she liked it.

RC wrote Yep, the prose is fantastic - glad you enjoyed this, Stephen. Did you get on better with Donne's poetry?

Thanks RC. I have only read a few, The Flea and The Sun Rising and enjoyed the metahysical aspect, They certainly make one think.
I see there are quite a number on the Poetry Foundation website. Where would you suggest one begins. I seem to recall somewhere you mentioned you had done some writing and study of his work. Was that for pleasure or academic study or work?

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Stephen wrote: "Where would you suggest one begins. I seem to recall somewhere you mentioned you had done some writing and study of his work. Was that for pleasure or academic study or work?"

I'd say Donne's Songs and Sonnets is a good place to start (and you've already read a couple in The Flea and The Sun Rising). The Oxford The Major Works: Including Songs and Sonnets and Sermons or the Penguin The Complete English Poems both have helpful notes.

These are mostly poems he wrote when he was young 'Jack' Donne, the man about town - many were written when he was a law student and were passed around in manuscript to his fellow male students - they weren't collected as the 'Songs and Sonnets' till after his death.

I teach Donne at undergraduate/postgraduate level - so much fun!

Thanks RC. I will have a look at both books.

Teaching Donne - sounds fascinating!

Stephen wrote: "I thought this was a really good book and the prose sparkled and shone. For me it was a great introduction to the life and works of John Donne.
I also loved the two interviews that have been posted..."

I have Rundell’s Rooftoppers on my to read list. It sounds like a great book.

A friend today gave me a copy of John Donne: The Reformed Soul: A Biography. It looks a weighty tome. Anyone here read it. Maybe the group has moved on.

Stephen wrote: "A friend today gave me a copy of John Donne: The Reformed Soul: A Biography. It looks a weighty tome. Anyone here read it. Maybe the group has moved on."

I've read it: for me the Stubb biography bypasses the poetry, largely, and making Donne a man struggling with ambition and authority. Stubb is good on the religious pamphlets though.