Nature Literature discussion
Book of the Month
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An Immense World discussion
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Becky
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I have the book too! I gave this book to my 88-year-old dad. He said, “I’m happy to have this because sometimes questions about the universe come into my head. I’m reading it right away.”
My requested copy is ready for pick up at my library when they open next week. Looking forward to starting off the year with this group read!
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I love that Julie--- perhaps I should have given it to my 90 year old dad... I may after we read it! I am glad you will be joining us to kick off a new year of reading.
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Yipee Amanda-- can't wait to discuss with you again...
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I also just got this book on hold from the library and look forward to reading it and joining the discussion here!
I suspect what happened is that this was a wildly popular holiday gift and the publisher is scrambling to fill backorders. For those that are waiting there are a few other options: kindle, ebook, & audiobook. I have an audiobook version on Libby and Ed Yong reads it. Very fun. I've been so busy, I'm only a few pages in, but I'm looking forward to our group read and discussion.
I read and listened to this one a few months ago. Will go through my notes and make a comment here and there. It is really good. I preferred his first book about the evolution of germs, viruses, cells and bodies, called We Contain Multitudes. But that might be that many of the themes and topics in his current book are ones I've read quite a bit about already. He also has an excellent interview from months back on Terry Gross' Fresh Air.
For those who have already read it, can you recommend book versus audio? One of my determining factors is the number of photos and images that I might miss if I choose audio. Can someone speak to that? Thanks!
Sam, I’m going to listen to the Fresh Air interview. Lin, the print version has two photo insets, each just under 40 photos. I find his writing is not a fast read in part because he is very descriptive. Your call!
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Dang Becky-- I was so hopeful for you!
I agree Sher. Let’s all savor the book. No need to speed read. Lots to think about.
I read the sample pages and then bought the iBook. I particularly liked his comments in the introduction about how the English language is limited by our human vision-centric perspective and that makes it challenging to describe the sensory experiences of other creatures. Fascinating facts in Chapter One about ants and pheromones and the many species of insects, mammals and birds that interface with their environment primarily through their olfactory senses.I agree that 3 chapters a week would be a rush. I’m in favor of carrying over into February.
Julie, thanks for the information about the photos. I think I’ll read it rather than listen Sher, I agree that I don’t want to feel rushed reading this.
Currently reading the introduction and already had to grab my phone to search images of owls so that I could look at their ears.
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I started this book last night, and I just love it so far. Really disappointed that I didn't learn any of this in school or university.
I'm fascinated by Betsy Ban- that someone would dissect and sketch the nasal passages of birds and measure the olfactory bulbs of more than a hundred species. She studied medical illustration at Johns Hopkins and authored and/or illustrated some publications, but apparently never had a paying career. If you're curious, here's more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betsy_Bang
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Do any of you have any anecdotes regarding animals's sense of smell you can share?
Before the pandemic, I was running two dogs in Noseworks trials, and I found both dogs adored the training and the testing games. In the higher levels--the testers put distractor scents in some of the containers, and the dog has to stay focused on the scent he or she is searching for ignoring the distraction (sometimes Food!).
Here is how the dog's scent ability was described to me-- a human sniffs a bouquet of flowers and just smells flowers- I smell fresh flowers, but the dogs smells the bouquet and his brain picks out roses, daisies, carnations, lilies-- and is aware of each scent within the bouquet.
A bloodhound can track one person's scent down a busy street in New York City ignoring all the other smells.
A dog sees a scent landscape like we read a newspaper.
Horses smell fear in a person--remember that one?
Most surprising detail--insects can taste with their feet and legs! Wow.
I love the idea of unwell--what each type of animal can sense==how it knows the world.
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https://emergencemagazine.org/audio-s...
Let me know your response please.
I read C1. I love the info about the curved side slits in gig nostrils and how it works.The description of the laser lit video of the dual tips of snake tongues swirling up clouds of cornstarch was stunning. I think this image is the most memorable description in C1 for me.
All this info about smell and taste reminding of someone’s post Covid testimony. When her sense of smell returned, there was some dysfunction that some foods smell so bad—like a super rotten dumpster—that she and other folx with this condition often can’t eat and can’t find a way to remedy the problem. Very dangerous as they begin losing body weight. This is the first time I’ve heard of this symptom.
Sher wrote: "Finished C 1
Do any of you have any anecdotes regarding animals's sense of smell you can share?
Before the pandemic, I was running two dogs in Noseworks trials, and I found both dogs adored the tr..."
I've been thinking about this a lot recently. I have a border collie with whom I'm deeply bonded to, and him to me. And he is as smart as they say about border collies.
I'd say about 5 months ago he started, more than usual, coming up and smelling me, staring me in the eyes, smelling my breath. I was diagnosed with breast cancer in August. After my surgery he was doing it even more. They got it all (for the time being at least). I thought too, that he is also very in tune with my emotions, so maybe that was it? But I went and researched, and sure enough, there are studies happening looking at dogs' ability to detect cancers because there does seem to be some truth to it! Now I'm doing radiation, and he rarely leaves my side, except to chase squirrels or turkeys out of the yard. He's staring at me right now from his comfy chair. Is he smelling the clinic on me (I go 5 days a week)? Is he sensing the radiation? All I know is that if he starts getting intense about sniffing me again, I'm heading to the doctor ASAP to check for recurrence. Love my dog!
Do any of you have any anecdotes regarding animals's sense of smell you can share?
Before the pandemic, I was running two dogs in Noseworks trials, and I found both dogs adored the tr..."
I've been thinking about this a lot recently. I have a border collie with whom I'm deeply bonded to, and him to me. And he is as smart as they say about border collies.
I'd say about 5 months ago he started, more than usual, coming up and smelling me, staring me in the eyes, smelling my breath. I was diagnosed with breast cancer in August. After my surgery he was doing it even more. They got it all (for the time being at least). I thought too, that he is also very in tune with my emotions, so maybe that was it? But I went and researched, and sure enough, there are studies happening looking at dogs' ability to detect cancers because there does seem to be some truth to it! Now I'm doing radiation, and he rarely leaves my side, except to chase squirrels or turkeys out of the yard. He's staring at me right now from his comfy chair. Is he smelling the clinic on me (I go 5 days a week)? Is he sensing the radiation? All I know is that if he starts getting intense about sniffing me again, I'm heading to the doctor ASAP to check for recurrence. Love my dog!
Sam, I've read about similar stories, and always amazed. Wishing you the best. Please give your pup some extra scratches for me!
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Sam—I think I love your dog too. I appreciate the extra senses that our dogs can add to our days. And wishing you all the best with your treatment and recovery. Good to know you have an awesome companion waiting for all you returns home.
Sam, thanks for sharing that about your dog, and I hope the best for you as you continue through treatment. I also have read about dogs detecting cancer and it’s great to hear a firsthand story. I would definitely take it seriously if your dog starts sniffing you in an unusual way.
A personal story about smell that I’d like to add happened about four months ago, in September. It was 7:30am and I was walking my two dogs through my suburban residential neighborhood when I suddenly noticed a very large bear walking down the middle of the street towards me. (I live near Tahoe and we sadly have a lot of displaced bears due to recent fires, who have discovered ready food in trash cans). This was a first for daylight hours, and quite shocking! The bear didn’t appear to notice me yet, and I had to think quickly what to do. I didn’t have a side street to escape on and I didn’t want to turn and run, as I didn’t know how the bear might react. There were a couple of large trucks parked on the side of the street and I decided to hide behind them and as the bear passed, I would keep the trucks between us. My dogs were quiet during this, and didn’t seem to understand that anything was happening. The bear continues towards us, we are not visible, and then all of a sudden stops, whirls around, and begins loping (almost running) in the opposite direction. The only thing that could have happened is that our scent was picked up. The bear was about two houses away when this happened.
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But, yes, it sounds like that bear picked up the scent and got out of there quickly.
Lin, Black or Grizzly? Shouldn’t either be hibernating? I guess if you and dogs scent wafted toward the bear, the bear scent didn’t make it your dogs. But bears really stink! Glad you got thru your walk without any chaos. A heart stopper I’m sure!
When I think about our prevailing wind direction, we were upwind of the bear which could help explain why the bear smelled us before the dogs smelled him. Honestly, I think my dogs were confused by us hiding behind the truck and didn’t know what to think! The bear was a black bear (though brown in color, as black bears come in a range of colors). I’ll try to post a picture.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vpaL...This photo is taken after I got my dogs home and went back out to see where he was. When he took off running, he went in a direction towards my house (of course!). When I came back outside, he was casually walking down my street.
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Any favorites parts or anecdotes related to sight from C 2?
I really enjoy the Giant Squid and sperm whale section.
Anecdote - when people meet our donkeys they always reach out and pet them between the eyes or lower down on their nose/muzzle. The donkeys trust humans, but interestingly that is their blind spot right in front of their face. I think the donkeys are trained this is what humans are going to do, so they expect it. But if I am ever concerned with someone and the donkey, then I ask them to pet the neck or side of the face.
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This photo is taken after I got my dogs home and went back out to see where he was. When he took off running, he..."
Wow! A big boy!
I am done with Chapter 2. I enjoyed reading about the sweat bees and how much they rely on vision to return to their stick nest at the end of their foraging.My anecdote about vision is about a visit to our local fly shop with my grandson. The owner was explaining some of the different flies to us and she pointed out that some of the features on a fly are just for the human's enjoyment, and she talked about how the fly would look from a fish's perspective, swimming up from underneath. That was interesting to both of us, as I hadn't considered that before. (Full disclosure: I don't fish).
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Any anecdotes or stories that stood out to you? I really got a kick out of those mantis shrimp and how difficult it is to understand how they see and why they have so many eyes.
Anecdote-- once a retriever reaches a certain level in its training we always move to orange dummies, so the dog cannot see the object and it must rely on hand signals to reach the dummy. Then the dog uses its nose and at the last moment sees the object (sort of) and retrieves and then brings in it to the handler.
I was amazed by how different something looks when ultraviolet light is shown on it, --like the flower and the fish in the picture section between C 3 and C 4.
I also think the appearance of objects in different wavelengths to be interesting. NASA and other agencies have placed telescopes in space to “see” in various wavelengths, especially those that get blocked by our atmosphere. It’s interesting when they share photos of familiar galaxies or nebula as seen in these other wavelengths, and how different they appear. That’s interesting about the retrievers and the color orange, Sher. Being a dog lover and owner too, I found the discussion of canine color vision to be the most interesting topic of this chapter.
I have also finished Chapter 4- Pain. It’s much shorter than the previous chapters. I will wait to comment as I may be reading this faster than the agreed upon timeframe.
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I've got your question going in my mind.
Here's my question-- does knowing better and understanding another creature's UMwelt create empathy? Will it change the way humans behave, if our lens is changed?
Is the right question -- the best question a question that focuses on differences? I think in the Western view -- it's the way the mind trends, but...
How can the UmWelt of another species alter our experience of nature? Meaning -- the way we experience nature?
Take the house fly , for example, if I am able to imagine how a fly sees and hears and feeds, will this change the way I behave towards a fly in my kitchen? Is empathy enough?
I have wondered about this chapter on pain -- it is interesting that it IS a question-- do life forms feel pain -- discomfort --distress? Will knowing a fish feels pain, stop us from fishing?
Still I am thinking of things from a spiritual perspective and not a practical perspective, because obviously as more is discovered about animals more laws are put in place to protect them i.e. cruelty free cosmetics, calm inducing slaughterhouses, dolphin safe fishing nets, and so on.
The practical implications of this book are great and far reaching for society, but I've got these other roads of thoughts running. Maybe as we keep reading I can better express myself.
Hi John,In reading your comment and questions, I'm wondering if it's even possible for understanding the Umwelt of other species to transform our experience of the natural world at all, nevermind in a radical way. The reason I wonder this is because of what you mentioned- we are confined to our way of experiencing the world. How much can we truly understand the world from the POV of a different species, even if we're trying? That being said, I think it's important to try, which leads to Sher's question...
Sher, I do think our efforts produce more empathy, and this may sound pessimistic to say so-- but does empathizing translate into changing our behavior? My guess is that it could for some, but not most. Humans don't even treat their own species well at times, and we clearly are familiar with our own Umwelt.
Even though this sounds negative, I feel that even if a small percent of people take knowledge from sources like this book we are reading, it's beneficial. Most change happens slowly and it will take time to see progress.
Please let me know your thoughts, both of you.
My husband and I were taking turns reading this - we both agreed that it's incredibly interesting and best consumed slowly, in small doses since there's so much to read and then think about. Unfortunately, the copy we had was a 14-day checkout from our library and was due back today without being able to renew it. We made it pretty far, and I will request it again to finish in the future. I absolutely loved the introduction. The hypothetical room of various beings, each sensing / experiencing it differently, was captivating, mind expanding.
As Sher knows, we have bird dogs with outstanding noses whom we adore. Watching them use their noses never ceases to amaze us, and since they're so central to our lives, the dog info and discussion have been enjoyed.
Since reading this, I'm trying to allow our dogs to sniff more freely. Just this evening, I had dinner with a friend, and our enthusiastic 11 month old pup gave me a most thorough sniffing upon my return.
Another dog anecdote that jumped out as I was reading: Our twin sons are grown, have lived and learned away and apart for about 6 years, and are now both back living in the area and at "home" regularly. Our older dog likes particularly to climb onto the lap of one twin, command his scratches and nap on his chest (she's 65-70 pounds) every time he's here, and one day he asked, "Do you think she can tell me and [identical twin] apart?" That twin thing is another subject entirely - that they've gone through their whole lives having people who've known them on a daily basis not knowing who ("which one") they are. But it's NOT an issue with their dog! I laughed and said it's obvious she can tell, she only behaves that way toward him, and that she uses her nose and ears (their two voices are different, the result of one being in a ventilator for week or two at birth) far more than her vision. I don't have the book now to view the pages I'd marked, but there was something mentioned in it that struck that nail right on the head and made me smile.
Many thoughts here, but I want to quickly put this out there before it slips my mind regarding transforming our experience and empathy questions. I just saw a new book that's out titled PESTS: HOW HUMANS CREATE ANIMAL VILLAINS. I had a similar thought sequence triggered from that title. I wonder, too, if these deeply specific studies into certain species and their unique senses can make us see them as anything more than pests - like the housefly Sher mentions, or the mouse or rat. I feel it has the potential to transform our experience with some species much more than others. I will note, though - I am an all-creatures-except-snakes person. I can't help it, I'm fully aware it's irrational - they evoke an involuntary full body reaction in me. But as Julie also pointed out - I was blown away by the description of the slow-mo video with cornstarch clouds and laser light. This author was able to paint such a vivid picture in my mind - very memorable. The fact that it was about a snake didn't bother me in the least - didn't even make the hairs on my arms stand up! That's progress. :)
Amanda, I love the story about your son and the dog, and I'm impressed that you weren't bothered about the snake description in the book. Maybe we all have our aversions? Mine is cockroaches- I grew up with the large flying variety that you find in the Gulf Coast region, and I was terrified of them as a child (maybe because when my dad caught them after they got in the house, he would bring the paper towel towards us kids to get a reaction). Part of moving to a high desert climate as an adult was to get away from those things!
The Pests book sounds interesting and I agree that transformation would be more likely with some species than with others, and that could vary from person to person. I, for example, don't mind snakes and have had a couple as pets.
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I’m on my phone so limited typing, but do animal have any spiritual senses????
Check out the link for some things to consider
Have any of you seen the biopic movie Temple Grandin “A biopic of Temple Grandin, an autistic woman who has become one of the top scientists in the humane livestock handling industry”? I was reminded of it as I was reading your comments about how understanding that other species feel pain may or may not alter our treatment of them. For me, science and science-based literature give me knowledge and facts that lead to understanding but empathy is a higher level of understanding. That’s where the best fiction takes us. Franz Kafka’s Metamorphosis is a good example— you begin to fee empathy for another human who is a cockroach(?). So if someone wrote a novel about a squid who was injured and thus became hypersensitive to stimuli anywhere on its body and if the writing was good enough to transport me into the squid’s umwelt then yes I couldn’t bring myself to eat squid again. (Not to mention that most calamari isn’t really squid, but that’s another story.)
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Amanda-- interesting story about the twins and the griffon who seems most bonded with one of them. Shows that the dog is aware through smells and I bet the body language differences between the twins that the humans cannot perceive. And you have a puppy-- 11 mo old griffon? So much work--so much fun! I've been wondering do I have one more bird dog in me? :)
The question about what changes behavior--has a lot to do with biology(where we are in the lifespan) desire--intention--and awareness. It also is connected to culture, and we have culture and so do many species of animals. Humans are complicated --we have so many different layers of responses, and humans seem to produce complexity in everything they get involved in. Sigh....
Thanks,
Becky