The Sword and Laser discussion

Just read this and am passing it along - Sigourney Weaver strikes a blow for all of us by standing up for sci-fi. We need more sci-fi icons (even though she doesn't consider herself one but ... who are we kidding - she's one of us) to be saying the same thing

Sigourney Weaver: Sci-fi films don't get enough respect

I actually agree with her on this, and it's one of the reasons why I don't particularly care for the Oscars, because I feel like for the most part your film has to be either: A. pretentious, or B. documenting something historical that has happened in order to even get nominated. There are plenty of science fiction films out there right now that are thought provoking and incredibly well made/acted, but they get overlooked simply because of the genre.

I also don't think it helps that the academy is made up primarily of old white dudes whose favorite genre probably is pretentious non-fiction related movies.

Good for my girl Sigourney. She has been a pioneer in the sci-fi/horror genre and she reps it well!

Word

Nothing we didn't know already. But I'm glad she said it.

Sci-Fi and comedy films rarely win the big awards. They usually end up with the technical oscars, visual effects or the ones no-one cares about (costume design, editing etc.)

I just had a look to see what was the las Sci-Fi film to win "Best Picture"
Yeah :-? Next one will be the first.

Lord of the Rings: Return of the King won best picture. Yes its fantasy not sci fi but it still shows that its not utterly impossible for genre stuff to win. Before that Gladiator and Braveheart both won and both were pure fantasy as well. Oh supposedly Braveheart was based on William Wallace except its an utterly fictional version of him with the only resemblance being his name. The movie fictionalized nearly everything from his life - for instance the queen he wooed during the movie was in reality only a baby during the time Wallace was alive.

And while they didn't win, the fact that movies like District 9, Avatar, Inception, and Gravity have all been nominated for best picture shows that Sci Fi is getting more respect lately.

SF films have long been nominated, but none have won. Always the bridesmaid... I thought perhaps Gravity might have a chance, until 12 Years A Slave was released. Then it was obvious Gravity would not win.

I suspect an SF film that was the equivalent of an Octavia Butler novel would stand a chance of winning. But even an Avatar sequel could win in a weak year, but I'd rather it won against proper competition so no one can make excuses.

SF actually has a better chance than most recent comedies. Comedy tends to not age well, and the current batch of comedies have been decidedly lowbrow.

This got me curious, so I compiled a list of SFF films nominated for the Best Picture Oscar.

Looking back, it seems inconceivable that films like 2001: A Space Odyssey or Forbidden Planet weren't nominated.

Even though I personally consider Musicals to be Fantasy, I left them off the list. Were we to include them, there would be quite a few more.

Oscar-nominated SFF films

1937 - 10th
Lost Horizon

1939 - 12
Wizard of Oz

1941 - 14
Here Comes Mr. Jordan

1946 - 19
It's A Wonderful Life

1947 - 20
The Bishop's Wife
Miracle on 34th Street

1948 - 21
Hamlet (won)

1950 - 23
Sunset Boulevard (narrated by dead guy, technically Fantasy)

1956 - 29
The Ten Commandments

1967 - 40
Dr. Dolittle

1971 - 44
A Clockwork Orange

1973 - 46
The Exorcist

1977 - 50
Star Wars

1978 - 51
Heaven Can Wait (remake of Here Comes Mr. Jordan)

1981 - 54
Raiders of the Lost Ark

1982 - 55
E.T. the Extra-terrestrial

1989 - 62
Field of Dreams

1990 - 63
Ghost

1991 - 64
Beauty and the Beast

1995 - 68
Babe

1999 - 72
The Green Mile
The Sixth Sense

2000 - 73
Chocolat
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon

2001 - 74
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring

2002 - 75
The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers

2003 - 75
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (winner)

2008 - 81
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button

2009 - 82
Avatar
District 9
Up

2010 - 83
Inception
Toy Story 3

2011 - 84
Hugo
Tree of Life

2013 - 86
Gravity
Her

2014 - 87
Birdman (winner)

I think some of your inclusions are a little suspect in terms of being called "fantasy," Trike! :)

For instance, "Hugo" is not SF/F at all as far as I remember. The picture-drawing automaton might make it seem a bit SF/steampunk, but uh, those were real. Or was there another element I'm not thinking of?

Its true that genre films don't win Oscars as a rule but they generally kick Oscar-worthy films at the box-office. It all depends on your criteria for success.

I'm not a film-maker but if I was I'd rather be judged by the cinema-going public than a bunch of old, rich white guys.

Pat wrote: "I'm not a film-maker but if I was I'd rather be judged by the cinema-going public than a bunch of old, rich white guys. "

Exactly. Case in point 2009.
Hurt Locker (Wins Best Picture) $49 Million (Box Office Worldwide)
Avatar $2.78 Billion

I know which I'd rather have.

David wrote: "I think some of your inclusions are a little suspect in terms of being called "fantasy," Trike! :)

For instance, "Hugo" is not SF/F at all as far as I remember. The picture-drawing automaton might..."

Hugo is not overtly fantastical, but it is still solidly within the genre, more along the lines of the magical realism of Birdman. After all, Hamlet's inclusion in the genre depends solely on a single scene at the beginning when people see the ghost of Hamlet's father. (And people argue with me about that constantly, but it's the poster child for "only one fantasy element necessary for inclusion in the genre".) Same with Here Comes Mr. Jordan and Heaven Can Wait -- after the guy gets sent back from heaven, there's no actual supernatural business to be had.

Most people only consider Epic Fantasy to be true Fantasy, sometimes with a grudging nod to things like Harry Potter, which is an odd belief to hold. I was actually surprised at the vehement denials that Field of Dreams and Groundhog Day were Fantasy when I mentioned on Usenet years ago that Hollywood actually makes quite a lot of Fantasy movies.

I may redo the list to include Musicals, though, because it feels dishonest to me to leave them out when they are absolutely Fantasy by any criteria. I mean, music coming out of the air and everyone spontaneously breaking into well-rehearsed choreography? What else are they?

Trike wrote: "I may redo the list to include Musicals, though, because it feels dishonest to me to leave them out when they are absolutely Fantasy by any criteria. I mean, music coming out of the air and everyone spontaneously breaking into well-rehearsed choreography? What else are they? "

...musicals?

I mean, it's a genre of it's own, with its own rules, entirely separate from fantasy, unless it just happens to be a fantasy musical, like the wizard of oz, then I would call it a fantasy musical.

Trike wrote: "Hugo is not overtly fantastical, but it is still solidly within the genre, more along the lines of the magical realism of Birdman."

Well, what are the fantastical aspects of "Hugo," then? It's been 2 years since I read it, but I always categorized it as historical fiction.

I agree with you on the ghost front and Groundhog Day; totally fantastical elements. I'm just not sure where it comes from in Hugo is all.

I wouldn't count musicals either. I feel like that's a more a medium than a genre, if that makes any sense.

I wouldn't include musicals. The only thing that distinguishes it from any other fiction is the singing & dancing (almost all movies have background music)

Any of us could go around singing our dialogue and dancing. We'd probably get committed but nothing fantastical is required.

I sing and dance all the time and I assure you it's not fantastic.
I see where you're coming from about the musicals but it might be more useful to do what David says and look at them as a medium and not a genre.

Tassie Dave wrote: "I wouldn't include musicals. The only thing that distinguishes it from any other fiction is the singing & dancing (almost all movies have background music)

Any of us could go around singing our dialogue and dancing. We'd probably get committed but nothing fantastical is required."

Sure, but it's a given in those universes that people will sing instead of talk, that music appears out of nothingness, and everyone around you knows the dance moves to accompany your routine, even if they're total strangers.

If that's not supernatural activity, I don't know what it is.

David wrote: "Trike wrote: "Hugo is not overtly fantastical, but it is still solidly within the genre, more along the lines of the magical realism of Birdman."

Well, what are the fantastical aspects of "Hugo," ..."

A major plot of Hugo is about an automaton that can draw. I think that is very much fantastical. but i am not sure you can call birdman a sf/f movie. All of it's fantasy elements happen in dream sequences. He is more of a schizophrenic than anything else.

I haven't seen Birdman yet, I was basing that call on a description from a friend who called it a Magical Realist film like Chocolat.

Hossain wrote: "A major plot of Hugo is about an automaton that can draw."

But that's actually NOT fantastical! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaquet-D...

WOW! just wow! I always thought it was magical. Even in the movie they created the automaton, not any CGI. http://www.omgfacts.com/lists/11536/T...

And a much better article about the automaton of Swiss watchmaker Henri Maillardet - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/sci...

I remember liking Chocolat when it came out but can't remember anything about it that would qualify it as FSF. It may be somewhat magical-realist in feel but I can't remember anything definitively supernatural in it.

I'm also not sure about including religious movies like The Ten Commandments. If you include it don't you have to include Ben-Hur too?

Personally, I don't care who wins any award. The only awards that matter to me are the prime spots on my movie racks/shelves where I slot my DVDs/Blu-Rays. If I like it, I'm buying it. If I don't like it, then I don't care that it exists or what other people think of it. I never watch the award shows. I also never pay attention to box office numbers. The masses sure have terrible taste in my opinion.

I kind of think that genres exist to steer people to the kind of movie, book, story etc, they would enjoy. So while I agree that even a small fantasy element technically qualifies a story as 'fantasy,' I'd be kind of pissed if my wife brought home "... some movie. I can't remember the name, but it was marked as fantasy," only to find out it was Oklahoma.

Was Disney's "Captain EO" a fantasy fantasy then, while Oklahoma is merely a fantasy? What's wrong with just classifying it as a musical? I think they are different enough to merit their own audiences. I would never ask my friend, "Hey want to see a fantasy movie with me" and then take him to see Chocolat. I think spirit of the law is acceptable in cases like this, especially since the lines can be somewhat blurred anyway.

Alan wrote: "I'm also not sure about including religious movies like The Ten Commandments. If you include it don't you have to include Ben-Hur too? "

The Ten Commandments has things which are clearly supernatural, while Ben-Hur doesn't. He meets Jesus at one point, but there's no magic. We don't even get to see Jesus.

I know a lot of people believe that the stuff in the Bible literally happened, but I don't, which is why I classify it as Fantasy when magical things like that occur.

Trike wrote: "... The Ten Commandments has things which are clearly supernatural, while Ben-Hur doesn't. He meets Jesus at one point, but there's no magic. We don't even get to see Jesus...."

(view spoiler)[His family is cured of leprosy (hide spoiler)] so ... yeah, miracle/fantasy ;)

I didn't recall that. Okay, it's in. Anything magical is grounds for inclusion.

I'd call it magical reality if its set entirely in our universe and has magical elements. I don't know though if that's purely a book genre and not how movies are classified.

As for box office vs critical acclaim I reckon that while critical acclaim and awards are nice the cold hard cash matters. Like the example above. Hurt Locker was a critical darling but if box office returns were always like that there wouldn't be much of an industry.

Plus, awards can generate more income.

There are a number of Magical Realist movies which were written specifically for the screen. My favorites are Steve Martin's L.A. Story and Kaufman's Being John Malkovich.

I knew the Academy Awards were irrelevant after I spent 3 hours watching 'The English Patient' going "This? This won Best Picture???"