Addicted to YA discussion

Wow… Many thanks Beatrice for the great insight, although this is slightly depressing frankly, the truth that the world is indeed ruled by the devils (i.e. politicians of the worst running each country). This said, could I please add that although the world is run by the devils, we the people who are ruled, the kind and benevolent by nature, take the ABSOLUTE majority in population. So the world is essentially very few devils ruling a large number of benevolent and kind people, which makes the world still worth living in.

Yes it’s slightly depressing that the benevolent sheep are ruled by the relentless wolves in every country, although it might be of some consolation that in democracy, the sheep get to pick which pack of wolves rules over them for the next 4 or 5 years? This said, these wolves will inevitably get into fights with the wolves ruling over other countries (because they are wolves!), and will send the sheep into the war

And businesses as well, in additional to politicians. There will always be people who, for political or commercial reasons, seek to manipulate or sway the public via emotion (shock, fear, worries, hatred...) or curiosity (think of video clips or commercials seeking to go viral...) If one lets them, then one is left constantly deeply distracted (can the young focus for a longer time than a Tik Tok video clip now, for example?) and emotionally drained throughout the day. That is unfortunate as sustainable happiness and success require a tranquilent and calm mind, and an ability to focus and stay in the present. So it seems ever more important that one should learn to insulate one's mind from the ever-increasing distractions in the modern world...

Agreed Beatrice - emotion/attention/reaction of the public now represents such a remarkable monetary/political value for businesses and politicians that they will go to a great length to grab it. On the other hand, such emotion/attention/reaction also represents a cost to the individual out of whom it is extracted. Beware of paying such price without even noticing it - as a great Stoic said, he who can make you angry (shocked? depressed? curious?) becomes your master…

When you have a chance to eat meat, that is, when your nerves have a chance to be strong; You have the chance to reconcile and use all the tools and wisdom available to you from Zen, Tao (The Path) and western philosophy.

Thanks Chris - it’s true that you “pay” attention in the same way you “pay” currency, so be careful with your attention - it carries with it a cost

Beatrice wrote: "Thanks Chris - it’s true that you “pay” attention in the same way you “pay” currency, so be careful with your attention - it carries with it a cost"

Haha absolutely true - sometimes you might feel strange that certain information online is provided apparently free of charge. But actually, although you don't "pay" money for it, you "pay" attention to it. That imposes a cost on you because you only have so much attention each day - you pay it to irrelevant things to much, then you have nothing left for things that really matter for your life

Agreed Beatrice - it's important to conserve one's attention and energy for things that matter, rather than being led to splash them on things deliberately thrown at us as bait for our attention or emotion. This somehow goes back to the "wooden rooster" principle, where the fighting rooster which betrays no emotion and gives no satisfaction to its challengers becomes invincible and scares its opponents away

Yes sometimes it’s good to insulate one’s mind from other people’s words and actions - was it Gandhi who said “I won’t allow anyone to walk through my mind with dirty feet”?

Alpein wrote: "When you have a chance to eat meat, that is, when your nerves have a chance to be strong; You have the chance to reconcile and use all the tools and wisdom available to you from Zen, Tao (The Path)..."

Many thanks Alpein - indeed the physical side of things matter too... This said, talking about food, this reminds me of what Jesus said: "It's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you, but what comes out of it, as that is what emanates from your heart..." So it would appear that the focus here is heart and mind, and words coming out of it, rather than food that goes into one's mouth. But eating does make me happy too haha

Chris wrote: "Yes sometimes it’s good to insulate one’s mind from other people’s words and actions - was it Gandhi who said “I won’t allow anyone to walk through my mind with dirty feet”?"

Also Marcus Aurelius: "You have power over your mind, not outside events. Realise this and you will find strength."

Julian wrote: Also Marcus Aurelius: "You have power over your mind, not outside events. Realise this and you will find strength."

A difference between these Stoics (such as Marcus Aurelius and, with a stretch, Socrates) and the Chinese ancient sages such as Lao Tsu and Chuang Tsu, is that the Stoics still talk about how to control "my own mind", and to insulate it from external impact, while Lao Tsu and Chuang Tsu took it a step further by eliminating the concept of "self" completely - as Lao Tsu said: "External occurrences impact me because there is a 'me'. If I remove the concept of 'me' completely, what could the impact fall upon?"

This approach is a bit similar with the "Power of Void" explained in the book, emptying everything out (including the concept of "oneself") and making one truly invincible. Chuang Tsu is also believed to have achieved the complete removal of "self" by assimilating with the entire universe, achieving longevity or even immortality through meditation and epiphanies. It is believed by Taoism that once the concept of "self" is removed from one's heart, one starts to integrate with the rest of the universe and starts getting the power of forever-youth and immortality from it.

Marcus Aurelius: "You have power over your mind, not outside events. Realise this and you will find strength."
An outside advantage is a strength. memory capacity in tabula rasa is a strength. Again, talent in the tabula rasa or in the body is a power. And again, intelligence (pure mind) in tabula rasa is a force. To say we have power over our minds is an unnecessary aphorism. Because we already have to use the advantages of the self. And there is no one who does not use his existing mind.

Hi Beatrice, the ways to forget one’s body and let go the concept of “self”, and to achieve forever youth and immortality by integrating with the universe through ultra-tranquilent meditation as you mentioned, are set out in the Secret of Golden Flower - the Chinese Book of Life by Richard Wilhelm, a friend of the prominent psychologist Carl Jung. However, to achieve that level of meditation must be extremely hard, although conserving energy and keeping a peaceful mind through meditation is slightly easier and more approachable to ordinary people.

Alpein wrote: " Marcus Aurelius: "You have power over your mind, not outside events. Realise this and you will find strength."
An outside advantage is a strength. memory capacity in tabula rasa is a strength. Ag..."

Good point Alpein - an outside advantage is indeed a strength. This said, it's an unreliable one - I remember some philosopher has commented on similar points before, saying something along the lines of "Remember you have no control on the external world, or even your own body. You can't even make your own hair or nail grow for 1 cm even if you try hard. You have to wait, and to rely on time, to achieve that. Same goes for external events - you have no control on what good or bad things will happen to you. The only thing you can control? How you PERCEIVE these external events in your mind, which will have a huge impact on how you ACT UPON these events."

As Lao Tsu said about desires: “Bright colors blind people. Fascinating sounds and music deafen people. Delicate tastes distract people. The pleasure of hunting and partying leave people’s heart fluttering.” He reckons that desires, although pleasurable, prevent people from seeing the real Tao and from enjoying the peace of mind and calmness. In this respect, I also noticed the “How to be Happy” book spent quite a few paragraphs somewhere on how to rein in one’s unhealthy desires to obtain inner joy (not pleasure) and to achieve real success with the necessary calmness and peace of mind.

It is wrong to think that desire is a crazy desire for pleasure. For example, there is a desire for inner peace... Such desires are more common.

Alpein wrote: "It is wrong to think that desire is a crazy desire for pleasure. For example, there is a desire for inner peace... Such desires are more common."

Absolutely agreed Alpein - you have now touched upon the difference between "joy" and "pleasure", as I mentioned briefly above (details about the difference are in that "How to Be Happy" book). If you are seeking/desiring joy (charity, inner peace, family responsibility etc.), then that's sustainable and does not impose a cost on your body or life. But if you are seeking/desiring pleasure as mentioned by Lao Tsu above (not to mention drug and sex), then that's not sustainable and there will be a cost on your life, body or energy, and there will be ultimately a "pleasure trap" waiting for you (as detailed in the book too). This said, and apologies for splitting hair, strictly speaking, when it comes to joy I would usually use the word "seek" rather than "desire", but that's probably just my preference...

Neil wrote: "As Lao Tsu said about desires: “Bright colors blind people. Fascinating sounds and music deafen people. Delicate tastes distract people. The pleasure of hunting and partying leave people’s heart fl..."

This theory seems consistent with the view that one should learn to temporarily (through meditation) shut down all senses which routinely distract oneself from seeing the ultimate truth (the Way, the Tao, or whatever you call it), by focusing on observing inwards (rather than outwards).

Thanks Julian. This taps into Power of the Void, or as artists tend to call it, “the State”, where an artist forgets about him/herself when performing an task and starts tapping into the unconscious part of the mind to bring up unstoppable inspiration and innovative ideas. “The State” and the similar “Warrior mentality” (where a warrior completely puts aside worries about his or her own life to achieve maximum killing efficiency) have been analyzed in detail in that “How to be Happy” book you mentioned.

Beatrice wrote: "Thanks Julian. This taps into Power of the Void, or as artists tend to call it, “the State”, where an artist forgets about him/herself when performing an task and starts tapping into the unconsciou..."

"The State" for artists does remind me of Eminem's "Lose Yourself", where he urged singers/rappers to "lose themselves" completely "in the music" to make it a success

Joy of life, obligation to know, meeting with consciousness are essential in life. They have processes, namely desires (psychologies, emotions). In order for the process to occur, there are conditions such as intelligence.

Beatrice wrote: "Thanks Julian. This taps into Power of the Void, or as artists tend to call it, “the State”, where an artist forgets about him/herself when performing an task and starts tapping into the unconsciou..."

Interestingly, the greatest western and oriental philosophers, such as Socrates and Lao Tsu, have all touched upon power of the void (emptiness). As Socrates said, "I thought to myself, I'm smarter than this man. He thinks he understands SOMETHING, while I KNOW that I understand NOTHING." While Lao Tsu famously said: "To gain KNOWLEDGE, you need to ADD something everyday. To gain WISDOM, you need to REMOVE something everyday." Both know that true wisdom would arise from the state of void, which is similar with "the State" as called by the artists.

Julian wrote: "Interestingly, the greatest western and oriental philosophers, such as Socrates and Lao Tsu, have all touched upon power of the void (emptiness). As Socrates said, "I thought to myself, I'm smarter than this man. He thinks he understands SOMETHING, while I KNOW that I understand NOTHING..."

Many thanks Julian, and hope you don't mind me chiming in here. One of the reasons why the saints and sages tend to go back to the state of nothingness (or power of the void as the book calls it) for the "ultimate truth" and wisdom, is that such state is believed to be where the entire universe originated. Before the Big Bang, or before God created the world as many religions claim, there was just nothingness. But in that nothingness exists the energy from which the whole world sprouted.

I saw in the book you helpfully recommended this saying from a Japanese Zen master about meditation which summarised the point well: "Simply realize that our original mind, right from the start, was beyond thought, so no matter what, no need to engage with any thought that happens to occur to you. Illuminate the original mind, then no understanding or thought is necessary."

A unit that can correspond to the concept of complex mind does not exist in the human self. There is nothing beyond the mind. There is intelligence (pure mind), there is talent, there is memory, there is body, there is environment. So there is self. By the mind, the poet is not aware that he is referring to the self in this text. When he says there is something beyond the mind, he points to the intelligence that has not yet turned into consciousness. Again, he is not aware of it.

Alpein wrote: "...the poet is not aware that he is referring to the self in this text. When he says there is something beyond the mind, he points to the intelligence that has not yet turned into consciousness. Again, he is not aware of it..."

Reminds me of something Plato said in this respect: "Poets utter brilliant things which they themselves do not understand." Philosophers and Zen masters tend to view things from a fairly different perspective, seeking always to find the ultimate truth behind them...

it's nice. :) There is not much difference between intuition and consciousness. As long as there is intelligence to grasp the subject. If there is no consciousness about the subject yet, it is decided by intuition. One difference is that intuitive decision making is likely to be long.

Neil wrote: "Not just saints and sages - successful people in other trades (sports, show business, writers, warriors) tap into power of the void as well to achieve top performance, leaving aside all worries and distraction attached to "self" and achieve an so called "empty but enlightened" Zen state..."

That's a state from which wisdom and inspirations arise, and the wisdom from Zen state does not necessarily rely on the possession of any knowledge - bearing in mind that the brilliant 6th Grand Zen master of China was illiterate. So one should learn knowledge as well as wisdom, as these two things are quite different. As a Japanese proverb aptly puts it, "knowledge without wisdom is like a load of books on a fool's back..."

Chris wrote: “So one should learn knowledge as well as wisdom, as these two things are quite different. As a Japanese proverb aptly puts it, "knowledge without wisdom is like a load of books on a fool's back..."

Agreed Chris - wisdom needs to be consciously pursued so as to achieve the invincible mind for sustainable happiness and success, and knowledge itself does not automatically generate wisdom. My favorite is a similar Spanish proverb: “A spoon cannot taste the niceness of the soup, just like a knowledgeable fool cannot taste the niceness of wisdom.”

Wisdom, what do you think it could be! The intelligence is great. And the intelligence in the same self is greater than memory and talent. And that smart person is over a certain age.

If the financial situation of the same person is also good, that person is now a person who emits electricity.

Neil wrote: "Agreed Chris - wisdom needs to be consciously pursued so as to achieve the invincible mind for sustainable happiness and success, and knowledge itself does not automatically generate wisdom. My favorite is a similar Spanish proverb: “A spoon cannot taste the niceness of the soup, just like a knowledgeable fool cannot taste the niceness of wisdom."

Thanks Neil - about the necessity to seek wisdom for achieving consistent and sustainable happiness and success, my favorite quote from the Happy/Invincible Mind book is the one from Seneca, which it quoted before rolling out the entire analysis: "It must be clear to you now, the fact that no man can lead a happy life without the study of wisdom... Without it, no one can consistently live in peace of mind and free of fear. Countless matters occur every hour calling for advice, which can only be sought in philosophy."

The book then went on to do a thorough anatomy of this subject which, surprisingly, went way beyond stoicism and encompassed Tao, Zen, Bushido and Socrates/Plato etc, which I found helpful.

Elliot wrote: My favorite quote from the book is one of Seneca's: "It must be clear to you now that no man can lead a happy life without the study of wisdom... Without it, no one can consistently live in peace of mind and free of fear..." The book then went on with a pretty thorough anatomy over the subject of an invincible mind for happiness and success, going beyond stoicism and encompassing Tao, Zen, Bushido and Socrates/Plato etc, which I found helpful...."

That's probably because the subject itself does go beyond just stoicism - the oriental and western philosophers have pretty much addressed it from very different perspectives, and to different depths

Julian wrote: "That's probably because the subject itself does go beyond just stoicism - the oriental and western philosophers have pretty much addressed it from very different perspectives, and to different depths..."

It's good to seek wisdom, although perceptions and levels of apprehension would mean that there will always be people having difficulty appreciating wisdom and the benefits brought by it. The saints and sages are quite used to different types of people having different reactions towards the wisdom. As Lao Tsu observed: "When people with top intelligence hear about the Way, they promptly implement it; when people with medium intelligence hear about the Way, they get edgy reflecting on what they have done wrong in the past; when non-intelligent people hear about the Way, they laugh at it, loudly - the Way will not be the Way if the non-intelligent don't laugh at it."

Neil wrote: "The sages were quite used to different types of people having different levels of apprehension upon the hearing of wisdom. As Lao Tsu observed: "When people with top intelligence hear about the Way, they promptly implement it; when people with medium intelligence hear about the Way, they get edgy reflecting on what they have done wrong in the past; when non-intelligent people hear about the Way, they laugh at it, loudly - the Way will not be the Way if the non-intelligent don't laugh at it."..."

It's never too late to start pursuing wisdom though, so as to build a mind invincible to external disturbance and keep out all disruptive factors, and to achieve peace of mind and success. As the King James Bible put, ultimately, "Wisdom is the principal thing".

Julian wrote: "That's probably because the subject itself does go beyond just stoicism - the oriental and western philosophers have pretty much addressed it from very different perspectives, and to different depths"

Many thanks Julian. It's just I feel that discussion like this among people who have already gone through the book really helps me digest the useful points and helpful statements made in it

Elliot wrote: "Many thanks Julian. It's just I feel that discussion like this among people who have already gone through the book really helps me digest the useful points and helpful statements made in it..."

Agreed Elliot. When I started going through this book, it took me a while to go into the depth required to enjoy the wisdom passed on in it, with the kind help of the like-minded people here. It's always good to discuss these things out to benefit from them

On the most basic level, in this fast-paced world where people are constantly disturbed by what happens around them, making use of wisdom to keep one's mind calm and heart peaceful is a very useful survival (and thrival) skill... Comfort at heart and in mind regardless of the external environment really improves my life

There is no organ called the heart in your sense. An organ called the mind does not exist under any circumstances. What do you think Lao Tsu would say to this?

I'm sure there are people like me who only started appreciating the kind of wisdom in this book until massive shocks hit, in my case a sudden family bereavement. I always remember the words of the priest in the funeral service: "Have you seen innocent, carefree people who have never been hit by crisis or tragedy in their life? Obnoxious, aren't they?"

Chris wrote: "I'm sure there are people like me who only started appreciating the kind of wisdom in this book until massive shocks hit, in my case a sudden family bereavement. I always remember the priest's words in the funeral service: "Have you seen innocent, carefree people who have never been hit by crisis or tragedy in their life? Obnoxious, aren't they?"

I feel that the words of wisdom mostly have something otherworldly about them, and a crisis or tragedy could shook our mind off the immediate worldly life, forcing us to see the deeper truth

Beatrice wrote: "I feel that the words of wisdom mostly have something otherworldly about them, and a crisis or tragedy could shook our mind off the immediate worldly life, forcing us to see the deeper truth"

The wisdom may be otherworldly, but the tips and advice flowing from it could be quite practical. For example, I mentioned to my son about the advice on attending interviews in the "omnipresent paradox" chapter of that "Happy" book, i.e. running the paradox well - when it's still days before the interview, prepare for it mentally as if it's tomorrow; but when you are right in the middle of the interview, put a mental distance between yourself and the immediate occasion so you can behave and respond to questions naturally, rather than getting so nervous your brain blanks out. He applied it in his interview for an investment banking internship program and got the offer. Oh boy, how rarely does the old man get compliment from his teenager son like this time...

Beatrice wrote: "It’s a shame that in most countries average people like us are generally benevolent, kind, and want to get along with others, but people in charge (politicians) are malicious and relentlessly pursuing self-interests, causing so much conflict, wars and mutual hatred on the international and diplomatic level. This unfortunate situation seems to be due to the fact that if one is not “bad” enough, one cannot make it to the top in politics - if you can’t bring yourself to divert from morality and virtue and say certain things and do certain things knowing full well they are wrong, then you stay at the lower part of the food chain, as a “ruled subject” rather than a “ruler”. So it’s actually true when Hollywood movies say the world is ruled by the devil...".

Thanks Beatrice this is inspiring. I saw this article by University College London today analysing why it is always the worst people who rise to power, and suggesting that all high-ranking officials get psych-tested:

https://bigthink.com/series/explain-i...

Nervous weaknesses and negativities are included in the self, not in the subconscious, that is, in the pure self. The phrase pure self belongs to Kant. Talking about another world is unnecessary for now.

Neil wrote: "The wisdom may be otherworldly, but the tips and advice flowing from it could be quite practical. For example, I mentioned to my son about the advice on attending interviews in the "omnipresent paradox" chapter of that "Happy" book..."

Yes I found that tip on job-interview very helpful too

Elliot wrote: "Yes I found that tip on job-interview very helpful too"

That seems to be the book fulfilling the promise for advice on formulating an invincible mind for success, deriving from the fundamental wisdom described in it

Neil wrote: "That seems to be the book fulfilling the promise for advice on formulating an invincible mind for success, deriving from the fundamental wisdom described in it"

I like the way it generates practical advice and tips (in many aspects, such as debate, difficult conversations, family relationship, handling of change, handling of challenges and hardship, mood-control, job interview etc.) in a manner where it was fairly clear to me as a reader what the philosophical basis for those advice and tips are

Neil wrote: "The wisdom may be otherworldly, but the tips and advice flowing from it could be quite practical. For example, I mentioned to my son about the advice on attending interviews in the "omnipresent paradox" chapter of that "Happy" book..."

I like it when the book cautioned that kindness has to be executed with subtlety. Reminds me of the times when I complained that no kind act seems to have gone unpunished...

Beatrice wrote: "I like it when the book cautioned that kindness has to be executed with subtlety. Reminds me of the times when I complained that no kind act seems to have gone unpunished...."

That probably still derives from the "omnipresent paradox" principle, which means that kindness, although generally beneficial to people who receive it (positive side), could cause pressure on their side to perform reciprocal acts or cause them to feel inferior if executed in an improper manner (negative side). So the book cautioned that kindness needs to be executed with subtlety.

Elliot wrote: "I like the way the book generates practical advice and tips (in many aspects, such as debate, difficult conversations, family relationship, handling of change, handling of challenges and hardship, mood-control, job interview etc.) from fundamental philosophical principles......"

Good it dug deep to reveal the philosophical grounds for these advice - that way it solves the "how" question as well as the "why" question