Christian Readers discussion
today's question
Well, here God is talking about worshipping of the devil, and actual real life witchcraft, whereas fantasy fiction is just that, fiction. We aren't worshipping it, we aren't worshipping Satan, we aren't participating it in that way. it is an imaginary world, where more often than not, there is a clear message of good VS evil.
So should we not read books or movies that include murder? That's a sin. What about theft? That's a sin. Adultery? We would have to limit anything we ever consume if we lived life like that. Christianity isn't just following a bunch of rules. Yes, there are basics that we have to follow. But we also have Christian liberty. Could reading fantasy or science fiction novels cause us to stumble? Possibly. And we take care of that when we cross that bridge.
Quite an inflammatory topic isn't it? As for Christian liberty, here's what THE Savior says: [15] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:[16] As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
And, He says: Galatians 5:13 - For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh......
A lot of Christians chafe at the mere thought of having to reign in and stop doing worldly things. They don't like that one bit.
When we are told not to do something, and we want to, we get mad. Isn't that being kind of selfish? And getting mad at what God says is pretty pointless. It gets you nowhere.
We're supposed to abstain from every form of evil. Christians sure don't like that.
Christians don't like this either, but because I love people, and want them to consider their choices, I am going to post this verse: [13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Think about this, out of the WHOLE POPULATION of the world, how many were SAVED by getting into that ark?
Few. Like God says, FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.
I'm used to Christians getting mad, when they're face to face with verses that curtail their flesh.
Romans 14: [12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.[13] Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
[14] I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
[15] But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
[16] Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
[17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
[18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
[19] Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
[20] For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
[21] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Christian liberty is not to be used unwisely. We ALL need to remember that before we choose to do something, or say something that will destroy the work of God!
So then the question is, is my reading fantasy novels causing you to sin? (VS 21) and if so, why?
The story of Noah, were you trying to lump that in with Christian liberty? That's not at all the point of that passage. So are you saying that Christian liberty negates salvation?
The bible answers all questions. Keep reading, and being forthright with your Saviour. I read this just this morning, and I believe the Lord brought you to mind, since I've been praying for you, and myself, about this: Olivia, please read this:Rom.6
[1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
So, you want to condemn is as sin by simply saying it is sin? But how do you come to the conclusion that it is sin?
If the bible says it is sin, whatever "it" is, then it is sin.
But how do we know what the "it" is? Are you adding words to God's mouth by condemning something as sin that He Himself never specifically condemned as sin?
Mod
Sin is anything that is not of faith.
Romans 14:23 - "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin ."
Hebrews 11:6 - "But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
So Robert, would you say there is no place for fantasy novels in a Christian life?
I think of the lion the witch and the wardrobe, or J R Tolkien, there is magic, but they are allegories of biblical teachings. So are those wrong because of the magic?
Mod
If you can read them in faith before God, go for it.
Personally, I cannot read fantasy/magic books (or movies) because I cannot do so in faith.
The realities portrayed in the fiction are contrary to the Word of God...so I cannot support or endorse the fictionalization of those realities.
I believe that they desensitize people to the reality.
Ultimately, if you believe you are glorifying God by watching them... that is between you and Him.
I have to leave to teach a Bible study, I will check back later.
And that's the point I was trying to make further up. I don't think we can make it a blanket statement that it's a sin for everyone, or that ALL fantasy is sinful.. Obviously there are some books that I absolutely could not read. I do have to be choosy, but, if I can find one that doesn't glorify the evil, I see no issue. Just as I would with any other novel.
Mod
Matthew 5:28 - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Oh goodness. No, I was talking the magic in "fantasy"
The original question was why some Christians read books that include magic if in Deuteronomy God tells the Israelites not participate with diviners and witchcraft
Mod
If lust (sexual fantasy) is sin...
...wouldn't magical fantasy likewise be sin?
Doesn't the same principle apply?
I would say no, it doesn't apply. Sexual fantasy is based off of a desire for that very thing. And God gives clear principles on sexual purity. One man, one woman, marriage only.
Mod
Sorry, but fantasy is fantasy, and sin is sin.
One person fantasizes about one type of sin, another fantasizes about a different kind of sin.
I don't see the difference.
If your magical fantasies are not an issue, why is it something we are discussing?
Sounds like we are discussing semantics here and getting caught up with a singular word
I'm no scholar in this area, but the word "fantasy" is not the word God used in the Bible.
Mod
Nope.
I am saying that fantasy about sin is sin... just like Jesus said.
Matthew 5:28 - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mod
Magic IS a word used in the Bible, and it is defined as sin.
The magic talked about in the Bible is a very different magic than that displayed in books, however. At least some some books. I'm sure there are fantasy novels out there with actual occult practices, but those are ones I avoid.
Magic in the Bible is about demons, and the devil.
Mod
Thanks for your opinion. Do you have Scripture to validate what you just said?
Mod
Got Scripture?
What two powers does God mention? God, and Satan. 1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and the whole world is under the sway of the evil one.
Mod
1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and the whole world is under the sway of the evil one."
Where does it say anything about magic?
Where does it say that fantasy magic is God-honoring?
Does any man in and of himself has magical powers? Or is he getting it from a spiritual force?
Mod
Got Scripture?
What is the source of the magical powers in your fantasy books?
Do those fantasy magical powers glorify Jesus?
I'd say they do. It is good VS evil. The evil is never glorified. They are heavily allegorical.It's all made up world's, made up powers. You see plenty of made up tales by Jesus, the prophets, the judges.
Mod
It's all made up world's, made up powers. You see plenty of made up tales by Jesus, the prophets, th..."
More opinion.
Got Scripture?
Yin and Yang is good vs evil.
I suppose you are OK with eastern mysticism too?
Well, trees don't actually talk, but here is a story in the Bible about trees talking..... Judges 8:9-15
The trees set out to anoint a king over themselves. They said to the olive tree, “Reign over us.” But the olive tree said to them, “Should I stop giving my oil that honors both God and man, and rule over the trees? ” Then the trees said to the fig tree, “Come and reign over us.” But the fig tree said to them, “Should I stop giving my sweetness and my good fruit, and rule over trees? ” Later, the trees said to the grapevine, “Come and reign over us.” But the grapevine said to them, “Should I stop giving my wine that cheers both God and man, and rule over trees? ” Finally, all the trees said to the bramble, “Come and reign over us.” The bramble said to the trees, “If you really are anointing me as king over you, come and find refuge in my shade. But if not, may fire come out from the bramble and consume the cedars of Lebanon.”
Eastern mysticism is an actual spiritual Belief, not a made up story....
So we've talked a lot about my beliefs, but what about you? Where do you draw the line? What is permitted for you?
So is it your belief that absolutely all fiction is off limits? I'm trying to find out where you stand
The magic talked about in the Bible is a very different magic than that displayed in books, however. At least some some books.No, it isn't. The magic written about in books of today is the same root, it's merely in a different wrapping paper, so to speak. Magic is about deception, or, about having other gods, or about looking for power to manipulate, people, events, or things. Magic, any kind, is humans interacting with devils, demons. It is forbidden by God. Forbidden. Witches in OT were killed, charmers, wizards, necromancers, etc. are ALL an abomination unto the LORD. Today books lure children into enjoying magic via things like Harry Potter, etc. Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe, are all cleverly, very subtly presented as whimsical, and innocent.
I doubt if I'll convince you about this, but here it is.
This is an excellent, well-documented article about Pokemon, which isn't exactly what we're talking about here, but, if you read the article, you can see Pokemon IS magic: https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch....
Mod
Judges 8:9-15
The trees set out to anoint a king over themselves. They said to the olive tree, “Reign ov..."
LOL!!!!
Talk about desperation and twisting Scripture. Now I understand your lust for magical fantasy.
Apparently, the Bible is not good enough for you.
Mod
It is my belief that everything against God is SIN.
Where does it say that fantasy magic is God-honoring?I think Robert's point is that, unless it honors God, it is not good or useful in a Christian's life. Which I agree with. Which is why I have stopped reading and reviewing most all Christian fiction.
made up tales by Jesus, the prophets, the judges.
Number ONE: Jesus never lied, or made anything up. He was always in submission to the Father God.
Mod
Simple, only that which clearly glorifies Jesus.
Colossians 3:17 - And whatsoever ye do in word or deed , do all in the name of the Lord Jesus , giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
If you can read about magic, sorcery, or other fantasies in the name of Jesus... you might want to check which Jesus you are serving.
Nancy, I never said he lied, I said he told stories, parables.
Robert, how is it twisting scripture? You are deflecting.
Mod
LOL!!!!!
I asked for Scripture and you give me a link to someone's OPINIONS about Pokemon!
REALLY?!?!
You are the one deflecting.
The real question is...
Why are you so vehemently defending fantasy? While I am contending earnestly for Scripture!
me thinks thou dost protest too much
Guilty conscience!
I didn't send a link about Pokémon. Look at the name on that response and get back to me.
Mod
I read the Bible... NOT nonsense about Pokemon.
Got Scripture?
still defecting, I see.
Robert listen to me, Nancy sent the link with Pokémon. Not me. Go back and read the last few messages.You're getting heated. I was up for a lighthearted discussion, but I will not stoop to insults. So I'm out.
Mod
You're getting heated. I was up for a lighthearted discussion, but I will not stoop to insult..."
Sorry, I did miss the Pokemon link. That was not you.
Yes, I am frustrated because I cannot stand for the Word of God being abused and twisted to defend entertaining yourself with sin.
There is nothing light-hearted about magic or fantasizing about it.
Got ANY Scripture that says ANYTHING positive about magic? Real or fantasized?
[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
[12] For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
[13] Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Now, in the NEW TESTAMENT, God still despises all witchcraft, wizardry, necromancy, consulters with familiar spirits. He makes it plain.
My question is: Since God hates it, why do SOME professing Christians read books with magic in them, or entertain themselves with anything to do with abominations to God in the realm of the occult?