The Mookse and the Gripes discussion

Pyre by Perumal Murugan,translated by Aniruddhan Vasudevan

It's great to see another book on the IB longlist from an Indian language - here, Tamil - after Tomb of Sand won last year. Perumal Murugan is a well-known Tamil author and political target of the BJP. The English translation of Poonachi: Or the Story of a Black Goat was shortlisted for the JCB Prize in 2018.

I’m excited about this and will be ordering Pyre when I get my “pin money” on Friday.

I just finished. This is the third I’ve read by Murugan- Poonachi was wonderful- and I have to say this one was really good, too.

I don’t want to throw a bunch of spoilers out there, but I will say that 1. It’s not what I expected, and 2. The ending is not tied up in a neat bow, so some folks are gonna be grumpy.

That’s very encouraging. I am around 10 percent in and finding it very simply written so far - hoping in my final review I can refer to a deceptively simple opening.

I was a little disappointed to read in the Translators Note that “the characters speak a lot and their streams of thought too bear the distinct mark of regional speech patterns. In the Tamil text, Kumaresan’s and Saroja’s people speak differently; their speech is marked by rural and semi-urban variations. It has been difficult to sustain that difference in translation. Perhaps this is an instance where specificity of language use resists translatability.” as it feels like the challenge a prize worthy translation should rise to.

That does seem like an odd comment. I can think of several ways a translator could recreate that dynamic by using regional English speech.

People always seem loathe to do it - see the Breast and Eggs debate we had previously with the Mancunian version.

Oddly as it doesn't translate well - i.e. what might work for a UK reader may not work for a US one.

Paul wrote: "Oddly as it doesn't translate well - i.e. what might work for a UK reader may not ..."

Plus the fact that most readers of this translation (at least pre-IBP) are likely to read English as a second or third language.

65% in. Perhaps it’s the Booker nomination that’s making me more critical, but I keep wondering about Kumaresan’s naivety at bringing Saroja to the village considering the amount and severity of caste-related violence he must’ve been aware of – unless there’s a layer I’m simply not seeing (which there might be – my knowledge of India is so limited)? Obviously he has to bring her there to propel action in the narrative, but still. Maybe I’ll find out.

An Instagram “friend” who lives in Tamil, it’s her native language and she’s fluent in English, said she was disappointed in the translation. She felt this translation failed to capture the emotional nuances of the original.

I tried to read Poonachi: Or the Story of a Black Goat, but I just couldn’t get hooked, the prose seemed too simple, so I’m guessing it’s another translation problem.

I don’t think I’ll order this after all.

it's on hoopla if you at least want to check the writing out for yourself.

I do agree there was some emotionality missing for me. And I agree with Tommi, I never understood the naivety of the characters.

Interesting story on caste and colorism. Some parts I saw as connecting to Is Mother Dead and Still Born.

I'm not getting much from the book. Thankfully it's rather short.

I think it’s interesting for a glimpse into a different culture and to read a book translated from a language I don’t think I know many books from

The real life case that inspired the novel’s dedication (in the original) and what happened to the author (due to a previous book) shortly after this was published give its examination of community intolerance added impact I feel

But the characters are rather one dimensional and the plot is little melodramatic - it seems more suited to a Tamil movie like the one mentioned which allows us to set the novel in 1980 or 1981

As we discussed on the thread already I am not sure about the translation.

My full thoughts

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I must admit I did not fully get I think the caste interactions - a number of reviews refer to the wife as higher caste (and some early parts of the book seemed to imply that also) but then I reached a very different conclusion at the end…. But all from a position of ignorance.

There seems to be a higher tolerance for melodrama in Indian literary fiction. I don't know the explanation for that, but it's often there.

Helpful review, GY.

I just read GY’s review which included this passage, “This novel was originally published in Tamil in 2013 (a year before religious-extremist and seemingly authority based controversy broke out about a previous 2010 novel the author had written, and two years before the author declared "Perumal Murugan the writer is dead. As he is no God, he is not going to resurrect himself. He also has no faith in rebirth. An ordinary teacher, he will live as P. Murugan. Leave him alone.”

I learned in Stories of the True that one indicator of person’s caste is their name, so in protest of the caste system many Tamil have started using only their initials. I don’t know if that is why Murugan declared he would be P. Murugan, but it might be useful information for reading Tamil novels.

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I must admit I did not fully get I think the caste interactions - a number of reviews refer to the wife as higher caste (and some early parts of the book seemed to imply that also) but then I reach..."

I was confused by this too and I'll admit that even the end didn't completely clear things up

Which movie allowed you to place the setting in 1980/81, GY? Is it something mentioned in the book?

This song

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SeB8I5b...

From

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grama...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4zOZUnj...

Inspires the naive lovers

Hello all!
I am excited to see the discussions around this book. I wanted to clarify a couple of points surrounding this book.

1. This book has no indication of the caste of both Saroja and Kumaresan. (I have read the Source Text). For people who have read the book you'd know whenever people question Saroja's caste, Kumaresan always respond with "She is our caste". So there is no upper caste or lower case debate here. The villagers have a problem with someone outside of the community (village) who are all essentially of the same caste entering the village. I hope this clarifies some ambiguity regarding the caste perspective.

2. I believe the main reason Kumaresan brings her into the village is with hope that the more he keeps saying she is of the same caste, the more people will believe or get tired of asking the question and let go of it at some point.

If there are any other questions I'd be happy to answer as far as my understanding permits.

The translation is indeed pedestrian. There were times when I actually said 'yuck'. I generally give some leeway when Dravidian languages are being translated to English because more often than not there's a lot of aesthetic conflict between English and Dravidian Languages, at least that's what I noticed.

As to the naivety of Kumaresan, there's two things at play here. One stems from a mischaracterization of the Indian Psyche. Though it's changing slowly now, we are socially conditioned to seek social acceptance. I can only imagine how strong this conditioning was decades ago. Hell, even in this day and age, I know some cases of 'I love you but my family won't accept so we should stop being together'.
Saroja's family being from the 'higher' caste, will never accept Kumaresan. Her family will even abandon Saroja since she has transgressed against the caste hierarchy. At worse, they will have Kumaresan killed. So, these two people go to Kumaresan's place to seek said acceptance. It's at least a chance.

The second thing being the patriarchy in play. Kumaresan will have the upper hand in his village. In Tholur, he would be the outsider/alien, looked down upon my people of the 'higher' caste. He transferred the outsider/alien status to Saroja by taking her to his village. He retains the power in their relationship by doing this. We can even see how Saroja contemplates that she's entirely at his mercy from the beginning itself. This, i think, is more the reason than the first.

One of you mentioned that they found the caste interactions confusing. I read this a long time ago, but I remember thinking that it was deliberate. It was to highlight the alienation of caste segregation. I think some nuance is lost this way, but that's how he wrote it.

I also don't agree that it is melodrama. It is reality. I've seen a lot of it happen, and some of it has happened to me. The emotional outbursts, the very public confrontations, even Saroja's ultimate fate. The only melodramatic thing I found was the husband's timely arrival at the end.

A few other minor things:

The place/state is Tamil Nadu.
The language is Tamil.
The people there are called Tamilians.

David wrote: "There seems to be a higher tolerance for melodrama in Indian literary fiction. I don't know the explanation for that, but it's often there."

Or perhaps it's culturally coded as "melodrama" by the reception in the West, which would come as no surprise given the historical association of the genre with women and gay men. It'd make sense that non-white (formerly) colonized subjects would get the same treatment by the white (male) Westerners.

I took the melodrama term from some Indian reviews

This is all really fascinating. Thanks Srividhya and Gaurav for jumping in.

endrju wrote: "Or perhaps it's culturally coded as "melodrama" by the reception in the West, which would come as no surprise given the historical association of the genre with women and gay men. It'd make sense that non-white (formerly) colonized subjects would get the same treatment by the white (male) Westerners."

Good point. I should have clarified what I meant by melodrama. In the US/UK, melodramatic elements are typically eschewed in literary fiction. If a writer does include them, it can be an act of subversion. Queer and BIPOC writers in particular tend to employ this technique.

But in Indian literary fiction (like Indian film), what we in the west might code as melodrama seems to my observation to be par for the course. It's the expected template for storytelling. So what I suspect Murugan may be doing here is using the melodrama template (Western terminology, not Indian), but subverting the expected grammar of that melodrama in terms of who is good, who is evil, etc. I'm by no means an expert in Tamil melodrama circa 1980, but I wonder if the expected resolution might have been an eventual welcome into the family/community after some initial misunderstanding.

I am still curious to understand more if the caste nuances

I agree fully with Srividhya V that the book makes no clear indications of caste and that Kumaresan deflects any question on Saroja’s family background

But Guarav in his comments seems to implicitly or even explicitly assume that Saroja is higher caste as do a number of reviews

But by the end the villagers do know her caste (although we don’t). Does the workplace of her family give a clue.

I have seen at least three Indian but English language reviews/articles (some at the first time of English translation several years ago, some post Booker) which explicitly state a belief she is from a Dalit background.

Any more background would be fascinating.

Welcome Gaurav and welcome Srividhya!

Srividhya and I recently became Instagram friends and she was generous in answering questions I had about Tamil Nadu culture and language, and about caste when I was reading the fantastic Stories of the True. I asked her about the caste of the husband and wife in Pyre and Srividhya asked if she could join our discussion. It’s great to have Tamilians in the discussion.

Caste is a more complex system than I thought before I read Stories of the True. I naively asked Srividhya why people of lower castes didn’t just say they were of a higher caste and that’s when she told me that one’s surname can identify caste.

I got the impression from Stories of the True that small steps are being taken in the caste system. Much like progress is being made in the courts in the US to combat institutional racism, there is much more progress needed in every day life and in the attitudes of Americans. Is it like that in India? Srividhya, I’m thinking of the protagonist in A Hundred Armchairs who couldn’t shake the feeling of being unworthy and of being a traitor to his mother.

I ordered Pyre, in spite of it’s flaws it sounds like an important story.

An important feature of fiction translated from Indian languages is that Indian translators typically don't themselves speak English as a first language. So they are often more fluent in the original language than English. The result can be a sacrifice in literary quality, judged by English readers, but in theory counterbalanced by greater fidelity to the original language. Daisy Rockwell being a notable exception.

In fact, looking at former winners of the IBP (2016 to the present), it looks like every winning translator was born in the UK or US.

But some translators seem to do a better job than the translator of Pyre. I’ve only read one translation by Arunava Sinha and one by Priyamvada, so I definitely don’t know which Indian language translators to trust. Yet.

Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that was always the case. Some of the best translators (e.g., Sinha) are able to do both.

You never make sweeping judgments, David, I know you didn’t mean all. I was bemoaning my lack of experience in reading Indian translations by translators who are translating their mother language.

Is “native language” an offensive term? Is it offensive to say “David’s native language is English, Arunava’s native language is Bengali.”?

I don't think "native language" is an offensive term, but I try to be cautious about assuming what someone's native language is unless I know. Some children grow up speaking multiple languages, so it's not always a good assumption that someone has only one native language.

But, yes, my native language is English and I'm embarrassingly poor with other languages.

An important feature of fiction translated from Indian languages is that Indian translators typically don't speak English as a first language. So they are often more fluent in the original language than English.

David - I am not sure if you know this, but most of us in India grow up learning English as the first language and often our regional languages are the second language. At least that is the way I grew up. I agree with you that as a translator it is important to have a greater command over the language we are translating into (English) than the language we are translating from (Regional language). So knowledge of the language is not an issue in my opinion. They venture into the space knowing that it demands better fluency in English.

The major concerns when it comes to translating from Indian Languages especially are:

1. As a country we have more than 20 officially recognized languages and each language has multiple dialects. You may be aware of the language in a specific dialect and may have difficulty in understanding the same in a different dialects.

E.g. Even though I am fully fluent to read / writing and speaking Tamil, I have difficulties understanding the dialect in the book Pyre in Tamil because it follows a Kongu (a region in Tamilnadu) dialect. This is not something I am aware of.

The challenge this poses is that you may not understand the idioms, the sarcasm, the phrases and so many other connotations that are used in every day speech.

2. While these dialects can be written differently, it is hard to replicate the same in English. You cannot use a different type of English nor can you use bad English to indicate these are Dalit / lower caste people or they are speaking in a dialect. Unless you are an experienced translator, it is a very difficult task to capture these nuances in English.

3. Capturing Emotions is also a bit hard because languages such as Tamil convey a lot through their tone. So the same statement might means something completely different with just a word interchanged and this can be easily understood for what it is in Tamil. However might turn out flat in English if the tone is not understood.

For example: "Eley inga vaa da nu solren illa"

roughly translates literally into " I told you to come here"

However, the same thing, could be said as an endearment too. This might be hard to convey in English while translating unless the translator chooses to add the intended emotion behind it.

(This is not a great example. Pardon my lack of better phrase )

So I would not say they lack fluency in English. I guess the struggle is understanding how to capture the nuances in English without losing out on the emotions.

I Googled “native language” suggestions were mother language or first language. I was taken to task a year ago or so for saying on Instagram that a foreign country was exotic to me. A person from that country told me her country is not exotic. I apologized and said I wasn’t aware that exotic was offensive since the definition of exotic is “originating in or characteristic of a distant, foreign country.” I try to be aware and not offend anyone and I’m not offended when someone corrects me, I appreciate when someone makes me aware I’ve said something offensive, not that it happens often, but it can be a minefield on social media.

WndyJW wrote: "I Googled “native language” suggestions were mother language or first language. I was taken to task a year ago or so for saying on Instagram that a foreign country was exotic to me. A person from t..."

Would not say the Native language is a bad one to use Wendy IMO. As a learning translator, I have learned to refer to Source Language since I find it offensive to call it "Original Language" which makes the translation seem somewhat "Duplicate/false". I guess to each their own. Social Media is always up with a lesson or two Godforbid we go wrong.

Srividhya V wrote: "David - I am not sure if you know this, but most of us in India grow up learning English as the first language and often our regional languages are the second language."

Yes, thanks for clarifying. I tried to say that with my point about not assuming which language is a translator's first language. I raised the point only because I have seen Indian translators commenting on the first/second language distinction and how it may be a unique facet of Indian literature. I have found it helpful to bear in mind when reading translations that I didn't think were particularly literary (e.g., Song of the Soil) but were noted for fidelity to their original language.

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I am still curious to understand more if the caste nuances

I agree fully with Srividhya V that the book makes no clear indications of caste and that Kumaresan deflects any question on Saroja’s fam..."

I think most of their assumptions seem to come from the fact that Saroja lived in a cement house with her brother and father, their jobs and the fact that they cooked rice every day. You can also read while Saroja recounts her life with her father that they moved from a village to the town so that Saroja could have some liberties. This is an indication that they belonged to a specific caste which could be based on the majority of where that village is from which is ambiguous in the book. So I would not say in general that her household is an indication of her caste or that it means she is upper caste. But I believe most people assumed this from her lifestyle which seemed a bit more privileged than Kumaresan's in any case.

I belive the assumption that Saroja is a Dalit could have stemmed from the fact that she was almost killed by people of Kumaresan's village. I guess we do not know very clearly who is from which caste here. So I would not make such assumptions for the simple reason that unless it is stated by the author it would be wrong of me to give it my own colours.

thanks Srividhya, you answered one of the questions I was going to ask...what have we lost in the translation from Tamil? The language in Pyre fell flat to me or that I was missing out on context.

I didn't find the book melodramatic. partially because of the translation and partially because of a lack of plot. also just understanding what the mom is going through.

The constant question of the caste hierarchy was interesting. sometimes I thought she was 'higher'- the mentioning of her lighter skin or her gold necklace. other times I thought he was- besides the village's reaction to the marriage, the mom angry that she could have made a better match even though they don't have much money. There was also the scene when the grandmother handed her a cup of water. in the end it doesn't matter right? (It matters to the villagers, I mean in the relationship/love sense)

thanks Gaurav for bringing up the idea of patriarchy and how Kumaresan retains power in the relationship and transfers the alien status to Saroja by moving back to his village. it was quite the gamble though!

David wrote: "Srividhya V wrote: "David - I am not sure if you know this, but most of us in India grow up learning English as the first language and often our regional languages are the second language."

Yes, t..."

Song of the Soil would be a brilliant example. I do not know the source language. But I have had a few conversations with the translator and the author as well on the book.

I think it was not literary, the translation did capture the emotions and I was left rooting for the boys in the book which is where I think Pyre failed largely.

In texts such as both Song of the Soil and Pyre, the important element is the experiences the characters go through and not so much the literary aspects of it as they are not written that way in source language.

Yahaira wrote: "thanks Srividhya, you answered one of the questions I was going to ask...what have we lost in the translation from Tamil? The language in Pyre fell flat to me or that I was missing out on context. ..."

IMHO:

1. the translation failed to capture or detail certain cultural elements which might seem less trivial but would have made the non-Tamil readers appreciate the subtle nuances in the text.

For e.g. In the beginning of the book Kumaresan asks Saroja to step down from the bus by placing her right foot down first. This detail might seem inconsequential. But the custom is that every bride that enters their husband's home is welcomed by asking to set foot into the house with her right foot first meaning taking a proverbial step forward in the right direction.

I am not saying not capturing this has affected the book. But this would have helped in noticing how optimistic Kumaresan was or how badly he was trying to make Saroja feel welcomed even if this gesture is small. Sometimes these little gestures add up to make a huge difference,

2. The translator himself seems to have had few misunderstandings in interpreting some of the dialogues. This was startling for me when I read the translation and I also had to refer the source text sometimes to make sure that I am indeed reading the same book.

3. By failing to capture the emotions, the book feels flat and you do not feel the dread or the sympathy for the characters the same way the source text does.

I guess these are the biggest loss in terms of this book.

Excellent insights, Srividhya. It is the idioms that are hardest to translate and being fluent in both languages isn’t always enough. For instance, my family played a game developed in the UK in which teammates had to a guess a phrase from clue. One of the phrases was “Different as chalk and cheese,” we had idea what that meant, but we would never have guessed it as a phrase because that is not an idiom used here. We say “put on your big boy pants,” in England they say something about a big girl blouse.

A translator would need to be more than fluent, they would need to be immersed in both languages to really capture and portray the nuances.

Thanks for the comments. Looking at the reviews or articles which do seem to make the Dalit assumption there are two drivers I think causing them to do that

- the link to R. Ilavarasan in the Tamil original
- the link to leather

But I agree with you that the author has left purposely unclear

WndyJW wrote: "Excellent insights, Srividhya. It is the idioms that are hardest to translate and being fluent in both languages isn’t always enough. For instance, my family played a game developed in the UK in wh..."

My gripe with leaving it deliberately unclear is that it perpetuates the idea that caste oppression is among factions and not across hierarchy. That's what I meant when I said some nuance is lost there. It's like saying Dalits can be just as oppressive to Brahmins.
Which is just not reality. I do agree that the leather work did throw me off, but like all hierarchies, when stripped of the religious hooha, even this one is about money. The gatekeeping in caste hierarchies is also done through access to ownership and opportunity. My assumption was on those grounds.

It's great that we're all confused about it though. The author seems to have realized his aim.

I have just finished Pyre and made my way through this fascinating discussion. I found the book a very flat read with no real character development and a plot that did not really make sense to me. The comments on this thread have helped me understand the novel much more and also understand why my reading of it was so unsatisfying. I am wondering a bit, if the transition is as lacking as it seems, why this book is longlisted. And yes I see the blurb from one of the judges on my copy of the book.

What does the blurb say, Cindy? From the comments here it doesn’t sound like it was well written in translation.

Gaurav wrote: "WndyJW wrote: "Excellent insights, Srividhya. It is the idioms that are hardest to translate and being fluent in both languages isn’t always enough. For instance, my family played a game developed ..."


This is an important point, Gaurav. Those without power cannot oppress those in power.

That was disappointing - very simple story, in plain writing, with characters' lacking depth or obvious motivation and a rather sudden and not particularly interesting ending.

Incidentally interviewed in 2016 when his translation first came out the translator assumed Saroja was Dalit: "it is never explicitly mentioned, but the story itself and how she is perceived and treated point us in that direction."

But then the translator's interpretation of a book is even less valid than the author's.

WndyJW wrote: "What does the blurb say, Cindy? From the comments here it doesn’t sound like it was well written in translation."

It's a blurb from Story of a Goat re-used here:

It's not just the physical world Murugan describes so vividly ... but the rural community, a village of 20 huts and a thousand ancient resentments... I'm hoping for a whole shelf of books from this writer.

However the review from which it is taken is also a bit negative on the translation:

At times, Vasudevan capably conveys the distinctiveness not only of Tamil but the language of a farming people — the insults (Ponna: \'Let her come. I will scoop the life out of her!\') and the particular metaphors ... But too often Vasudevan resorts to bland, anachronistic English clichés.

Is the judge who wrote the blurb reading Murugan in Tamil?

No but I guess she can tell the difference between an English cliche and something which sounds like it is a Tamil expression.

Of course if the expression in Tamil was a cliche then translating it into an English cliche would be a valid translation choice, so not sure I agree with her.

My video review: https://youtu.be/SknbUdHt_fQ