SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

In this post, I would like to discuss Zero-g, or Nullified gravity, and how it affects writing, storytelling, and our suspension of disbelief.
Imagine, if you will, a science fiction story that takes place in space with no artificial gravity. We can picture our hero in a hand-to-hand battle with the villain, throwing punches and eventually knocking the villain out. Although we must consider Newton's laws of motion, what should happen when the hero punches the villain in the jaw?
Another example would be a fine dining experience in space. The Princess of the galactic empire is dressed in her finest and drinking from straws and eating from a bag. How odd does that feel?

What about centrifugal forces, spinning the ship or station to simulate gravity?
With this artificial gravity, we would almost assume everything would work like usual. Picturing the hero slugging the villain, knocking him to the ground, and the day is won. The Princess of the galactic empire is now drinking from crystal glasses and eating her exotic stake with a fork and knife.
However, the environment is moving, and what about the frame of reference? Now things get a little more complicated. The villain does not necessarily fall down; they could float back into the wall or appear to 'curve' away from the hero. When the Princess takes a sip of her wine, the liquid would not 'pour' straight and could spill over her cheek instead.

I want to discuss these types of intricacies and our misconceptions because we, as readers and writers, do not experience zero-g. Our minds are biased to how things work under 1g. What are some examples you can think of or have read? Situations where no gravity was cleverly described.

The movie 'GRAVITY' was fairly good in showing the effects of Zero G and its effects vs counter-effects. 2001, A SPACE ODYSSEY and 2010 both featured spaceships equipped with carroussels meant to create a sort of artificial gravity via centrifugal force. You also have the myriads of sci-fi books using 'artificial gravity' or 'directed gravity', both for propulsion and to create a more practical environment for the crew of a spaceship.

In truth, we will have to devise ships with means to create an artificial gravity environment for their crews for any Space trip longer than a few weeks or months. Even after three months, noticeable changes in the physical state and health of astronauts working on the International Space Station (ISS) have been documented, including decreased eyesight, loss of calcium in bones and muscle atrophy. We just cannot risk a Space trip of over six months without seriously endangering the health of astronauts, so a centrifugal gravity carroussel (our only present mean at this time to create some sort of artificial gravity) will be a vital part of any long-range spaceship. And we are not even considering the problem of exposure to Space radiations, a severe factor that is even more of a threat than long-term stay in zero or very low gravity (Moon, Mars). Not dealing effectively with these two problems would basically condemn our astronauts to either serious health problems or even death.

The Expanse book series and TV show does a good job of exploring this, including a scene where the artificial gravity catastrophically fails.

Ruth wrote: "The Expanse book series and TV show does a good job of exploring this, including a scene where the artificial gravity catastrophically fails."

Yes! In the books as well. It seems to me that > than 1g is very painful (in reality) as fighter pilots experience that drugs are needed to counteract the physical effects and toll of great acceleration.

Ruth wrote: "The Expanse book series and TV show does a good job of exploring this, including a scene where the artificial gravity catastrophically fails."

This! I loved the way that gravity, or the lack thereof, and all the implications associated with it, was explored in this series. Everything from having a "morning" coffee to combat training in zero G, to physiological changes based on it. It was almost a character itself in the books given how much it impacted everything else. We take gravity so much for granted that it was constantly surprising me the ways that its variability would impact every single thing. I loved that aspect of the series. Kinda the same way that I loved the mathy-ness of The Martian.

I'm currently reading Andy Weir's Artemis, and he does a fantastic job using the 1/6 G of the moon in the story. It reminds me of The Expanse, and like Becky says, the use and description of zero G is those stories was masterful.

Only seeing the TV show, because I haven't read the series yet. I thought The Expanse did really well showing their use of gravity, or lack thereof, as well as breathable air. When I saw this show my first thought went to other S/F I had seen that never dealt with this problem.

The Expanse TV show does a fine job of depicting life in zero-g. It used acceleration and declaration to simulate gravitational forces. I also enjoyed how they kept the female character's hair short or confined to avoid having to work with it in every scene.

I am interested in small details like this and how they affect worldbuilding, character interaction, ship and station layout, and day-to-day lives.

Here are some examples I faced while writing that I never expected. Challenges that zero-g created, which I had to find the solution for.

Martial arts and physical conflict: No longer could I have the characters fight with typical punches and kicks, exchanging blow for blow. Instead, I had to picture them like two parachuters, a pair of combatants constantly falling. This led me to assume the characters of this universe would likely rely on jiu-jitsu more than any other type of martial arts. Using their hands and legs like anchor points kept the two combatants entangled when they fought.

Station layout: A diner on a station without gravity would look and operate differently. Up and down are relative, and it seemed plausible they would maximize the use of space by having tables on both the 'floor' and 'ceiling.' This also led to another problem: how food would be served and contained. Ultimately I settled on flexible trays that would adhere to the tables with pouches of food inside.

Weightless: I once described a room as having crates, machinery, and lab equipment but then remembered those objects I imagined as having weight would float. I had to go back and describe everything as being tethered or strapped down. Like securing a ship at sea, I had to constantly keep a mental tally of where tools and objects were and ensure the character put them back correctly, so they don't become a hazard later.

Worldbuilding with zero gravity introduced some oddly unique problems that required a bit of thought to 'write' myself out of a corner. I enjoyed these mental exercises and wondered what zero-g situations you have come across that you found intriguing—or clever solution for.

Michael wrote: "Martial arts and physical conflict: No longer could I have the characters fight with typical punches and kicks, exchanging blow for blow. Instead, I had to picture them like two parachuters, a pair of combatants constantly falling. This led me to assume the characters of this universe would likely rely on jiu-jitsu more than any other type of martial arts. Using their hands and legs like anchor points kept the two combatants entangled when they fought."

Parachuters is still not quite right, because while they’re falling, they’d act on each other LATERALLY, gravity is still pulling both down, so the full range of possibility of force is limited. The jiu jitsu is interesting, but unrealistic I think… What’s to stop one of the fighters from bracing and yeeting the other into space? (Besides whatever vessel they’re in, presumably.) I certainly would do anything I could to prevent someone getting a hold on me, including yeeting myself off of them if necessary! lol

Now I’ve said “yeeting” 3 times in one post and I’m pretty sure that makes me super cool. 😆

Parachuters is still not quite right because while they’re falling, they’d act on each other LATERALLY, gravity is still pulling both down, so the full range of possibility of force is limited.

Maybe I should have said freefall. In my head, I was thinking of the weightless effect, like flying inside a plane performing parabolic arcs. I need a frame of references to begin describing how things would work in Zero-g. Until NASA or SpaceX invited me to take a trip, this is what I had to work with.

The jiu jitsu is interesting, but unrealistic I think… What’s to stop one of the fighters from bracing and yeeting the other into space?

Jiu-Jitsu is grappling. The goal is to remain connected. I can tell you from personal experience that having someone proficient in Jiu-Jitsu wrapped around your body, there is no way I could 'yeet' them away, despite desperately trying. The fighting style includes choke holds and locks on various appendages. This martial art actively tried to keep both combatants close.
It sounds like you are thinking of Judo, using momentum against the opponent to ‘yeet’ them into space.
To quote my brother, who teaches Jiu-Jitsu, “it is the art of folding clothes with people inside them.”

I don’t know anything about any forms of martial arts, to be honest. My thought was more about the nature and purpose of fighting in general, which is usually antagonistic and violent and meant to kill or incapacitate, or defend oneself. The opposite of the goal of jiu-jitsu, in my mind. I don’t want to be attached to someone trying to harm me, so I will be desperately looking for a way to get free or harm them in order to do that. I’m not participating in the grapple, or playing by the rules, I’m trying to survive. I’d be breaking fingers, biting, kicking, scratching, attacking eyes, whatever it takes. Maybe they have a good enough hold on me, or maybe they don’t, but I would be looking for ANY leverage to separate us - even if that is by punching or kicking off of them or a solid object, or using an external force like a compressed air canister to change my position/velocity… anything I could. Or die trying, as the saying goes. ;)

I just don’t see grappling as fighting working for more than a few moments, except in very specific circumstances. Acting upon each other still uses force that would move both bodies, and without gravity to make that predictable, in my mind it would be very hard to fight that way. But, as I said, I’m no expert. I just think of the physics involved and how it would be so much different in zero G.

Enders Game has a moment where some kids are laughing at their teacher for standing on what to their perspective is the ceiling and later establishing a rule to orientate the members of a team (The enemies gate is down), but it doesn't do much else with the difficulties of existing in a zero/low/unfixed gravity environment. Very few of the SciFi books I've read do even that much.

Charlton wrote: "Only seeing the TV show, because I haven't read the series yet. I thought The Expanse did really well showing their use of gravity, or lack thereof, as well as breathable air. When I saw this show my first thought went to other S/F I had seen that never dealt with this problem."

Watching the Battlestar Galactica remake, which many consider to be the best SciFi show of all time, is so painful having watched The Expanse actually tackle the difficulties of moving in space. It's the Raptor gunfights that make it notably worse than the utopian Star Trek shows that still had gravity even when ships lost all power.

Becky wrote: "I don’t know anything about any forms of martial arts, to be honest. My thought was more about the nature and purpose of fighting in general, which is usually antagonistic and violent and meant to ..."

Fonda Lee's Zeroboxer is a story about the development of sport in space, specifically professional MMA fights in space. There's some discussion about the futility of many holds that require gravity to immobilise an opponent and how the lack of gravity can make it nigh impossible to break out of other holds.

It seems that, for those Star Trek writers, zero gravity only existed when it was a pretext to some story plot. In one movie, when the Klingon Chancellor was assassinated, his ship's artificial gravity was cut off to allow the assassins to more easily kill his guards. That is about the only scene in Star Trek that I saw where zero gravity was truly shown. That movie was by the way a mess in my opinion.

I'm sure I've read stories that comment on how difficult it is to have sex in a zero/low gravity environment, but I'm drawing a blank on titles. Same for urinating and defecating. These just aren't things physicists turned fiction writers have bothered to particularly focus on but something all of us would consider priority information within a few hours of a space flight.

This comment isn't on topic exactly but I feel like it belongs here due to the wider query of SciFi's general failure to fully grasp the problems we face in becoming a space faring species.

There isn't much in The Next Continent about gravity specifically, but it does do a very good job of talking about the many issues we'd have in making the Moon a tourist destination. The most memorable aspect being the amount of junk we've put in the Earth's lower atmosphere that makes it more dangerous to get into space with every satellite launch.

Ryan wrote: "Fonda Lee's Zeroboxer is a story about the development of sport in space, specifically professional MMA fights in space. There's some discussion about the futility of many holds that require gravity to immobilise an opponent and how the lack of gravity can make it nigh impossible to break out of other holds."

Cool! I might have to check that out. I would imagine pretty much everything would be harder in zero g. Except floating. That would be easy. :P

Ryan wrote: "I'm sure I've read stories that comment on how difficult it is to have sex in a zero/low gravity environment, but I'm drawing a blank on titles. Same for urinating and defecating. These just aren't..."

Menstrual cycles, too. Remember when NASA didn't know how many tampons would be needed for a weeklong flight? Still funny! Though, to be fair, it IS better to be (far!) overprepared than lacking. Which makes me think about reusables vs disposables, or even the potential for more permanent or semi-permanent medical interventions to control or prevent menstruation and pregnancy. That has its own set of risks and implications also.

Gestation in zero/low g is a fascinating concept to me. So many of our physiological processes during development require a predictable gravity and weight, and the impacts of low or zero g could be very serious. Though I'm sure that most heavily pregnant people would LOVE gravity to ease up a bit to relieve the pain and pressure of carrying a growing human and its stasis pod. LOL Such an interesting concept though - I would love for someone to explore it further.

I remember reading some planet colonization book where a group of revolutionaries was trying to pass off one of their children as the first baby gestated in space, but the scientists in the book proved it to be impossible. I’m going to try to find the title.

In Artemis women cannot gestate on the moon, and initially no children are allowed to move there until at least six, which is later upped to 12, because of muscle and bone development issues in the 1/6 G.

Kandice wrote: "In Artemis women cannot gestate on the moon, and initially no children are allowed to move there until at least six, which is later upped to 12, because of muscle and bone developme..."

I completely forgot about this, probably because Artemis wasn't really all that interesting to me so I didn't really pay much attention, but now that I'm thinking about it, this raises all sorts of questions about the way privilege and social justice and class and access to healthcare would factor into reproductive health on the moon... If a person who gets pregnant cannot afford to leave the moon for a decade - what happens? Do they need to end the pregnancy? Would their relocation costs (travel, housing, food, etc) be provided in some sort of assistance? Are there programs specifically around helping people manage this? Are preventive measures provided proactively to avoid unwanted/unexpected pregnancies? Are people just on their own? Job relocation services provided for spouses who don't want to be separated from their new family for years?

Uh oh... I'm rabbit-holing now!

Artemis certainly doesn't cover all your questions, but they are things that occurred to me. It seems as if anyone migrating to the moon for work, which seems to be the majority of those living there (other than the uber rich who just like the novelty, or 1/6 G for health reasons and can afford it!) is expected to simply commit to NOT getting pregnant. Crappy politics.

I'm sure that's why there was a sub-plot of one of the characters wanting his prototype for a reusable (up to 200 times), and vastly more effective, condom tested.

I'd read a story about a poor mother-to-be on the moon who can't afford to move somewhere with something similar to Earths gravity.

Makes sense...

Toilets on the international space station.

https://youtu.be/C-65mBQ7s_Q

What affect do you think living in low gravity would have on our diets? Whose eating pungent food in a tightly controlled ecosystem?

Whose cleaning all the surfaces?

I can't recall any sff story stressing the importance of velcro.

https://youtu.be/nPUvzn3CTQc

Those are great videos!

Ryan wrote: "I'm sure I've read stories that comment on how difficult it is to have sex in a zero/low gravity environment"

Like the internet, rest assured that once we get a civilian presence in space, the ability to have sex will follow shortly after. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2suit#:....

On the same subject, Zero-g environments did provide an opportunity to make some scenes more 'spicy' than they would have been otherwise. A reason for the characters to touch, grab, or wrap a leg around the other's waste to anchor themselves.


Ryan wrote: I can't recall any sff story stressing the importance of velcro."

The temptation to self-promote is high with this comment. Velcro is a brand name, so I avoided calling it that and settled on fabric fasteners.

I imagine life onboard a spaceship with tightly controlled ecosystems would be similar to life onboard a submarine, including the air filtration systems. The crew is responsible for cleanliness, and keeping everything secured.

Wasn't there a scene near the start of 2001 - A SPACE ODYSSEY, where the stewardess aboard a Pan Am space shuttle used shoes with velcro-covered soles in order to stick to the deck?

Michel wrote: "Wasn't there a scene near the start of 2001 - A SPACE ODYSSEY, where the stewardess aboard a Pan Am space shuttle used shoes with velcro-covered soles in order to stick to the deck?"

Yes, and in real life. Thank you, Samantha Cistoforetti.
https://twitter.com/i/status/15787512...

Samantha Cristoforetti also covered menstruation in space and how she handles it.
https://twitter.com/i/status/15642858...

Michael wrote: "Michel wrote: "Wasn't there a scene near the start of 2001 - A SPACE ODYSSEY, where the stewardess aboard a Pan Am space shuttle used shoes with velcro-covered soles in order to stick to the deck?"..."

Ew! The details can't be too appetizing to hear.

Michel wrote: "Ew! The details can't be too appetizing to hear."

Did I seriously just read "ew" in reply to someone talking about menstruation?! <_<

Anna wrote: "Michel wrote: "Ew! The details can't be too appetizing to hear."

Did I seriously just read "ew" in reply to someone talking about menstruation?! <_<"

Yep, someone thought it was worth his time to type that out. Ironically, when you actually follow the link to hear the supposedly unappetising details of menstruation in space, the short answer is that most astronauts choose not to menstruate while in space by using hormonal contraception (which also ties back to the point earlier about pregnancy in space being undesirable)

Sylvia Spruck Wrigley wrote a great short story which can be heard on the podcast StarShipSofa, which incorporates menstruation in Space. Moon Cup: http://www.starshipsofa.com/blog/2015...

Anna wrote: "Michel wrote: "Ew! The details can't be too appetizing to hear."

Did I seriously just read "ew" in reply to someone talking about menstruation?! <_<"

Honestly, I’m a little surprised it took so long. >_>

Anna wrote: "Michel wrote: "Ew! The details can't be too appetizing to hear."

Did I seriously just read "ew" in reply to someone talking about menstruation?! <_<"

Yes, but it was not meant as a sexist remark. Simply consider the smell and the hygiene pad discarded afterwards in a tight, enclosed space like the ISS. That the female astronauts themselves mostly chose to avoid menstruating during their tour in orbit shows that this bodily function could complicate their hygiene in Space. Both men and women can have embarrassing or smelly bodily functions/cases (diarrhea, intestinal gases, bad breath, etc) that could render the atmosphere in an enclosed space quite smelly. That is simple reality. Please don't read what is not in my message # 29.

Let's all agree to avoid words of disgust for natural human processes in the abstract and move on.

But you didn’t comment “Ew” on those bodily functions when a similar video describing hygiene and toilet use was posted. Just the one.

do we have any resources on how astronauts deal with interpersonal conflict? do they learn about the utility of apologies r over scolding?

Becky wrote: "But you didn’t comment “Ew” on those bodily functions when a similar video describing hygiene and toilet use was posted. Just the one."

I didn't comment on that video for the good reason I never saw it or heard about it. Please cool down and cut the indignation.

hey, Michel, right back at ya. you can let it go or apologize for the misunderstanding. What you said was rude. Your intent is secondary to the impact you had.

also, I found an article on interpersonal conflict in space!

https://whyy.org/segments/how-do-astr...

You could also take a moment, realize you made a mistake, and say sorry :)

I thought smelling a bit bad would be an accepted part of being an astronaut that newbies would be desensitised to after a couple of days on station.

Having read that conflict avoidance article I'm starting to think sff characters have a bit too much personality for space travel.

Ryan wrote: "I thought smelling a bit bad would be an accepted part of being an astronaut that newbies would be desensitised to after a couple of days on station.

Having read that conflict avoidance article I'..."

Exactly! Reading about people with quirks, big personalities, chips on their shoulder, checkered pasts, is more entertaining, but in a real ship? They'd end up murdering each other!

Allison wrote: "do we have any resources on how astronauts deal with interpersonal conflict? do they learn about the utility of apologies r over scolding?"

http://nsbri.org/index.html@p=21301.html
That's what I could find.

I picture The MU-TH-UR 6000 from Aliens in how it is described.

neat!

You'd think that this kind of interpersonal relationships thing would have been worked out long before space travel/stations. Think about naval and submarine crews on long deployments in confined spaces. You can't very well go for a walk to cool off when you're hundreds of feet under the surface.

Rigid hierarchical authority would surely play a part in avoiding SOME conflict - or at least prevent some from acting on it - but I'm sure it would also ADD a lot of resentment and conflict as well.

Considering how much of space exploration in fiction resembles either piracy or wild west individualism tropes, I tend to agree that the murder rate would skyrocket. (See what I did there?) :P

*finger guns*

*holster finger guns*

To all who may have been offended by my attempt at humor, I apologize. I didn't mean it as a slur to women and I certainly am not a misogynist, far from it.

World building in a weightless environment would also inevitably impact fashion.

Aside from the standard form-fitting flight suit, or what is practical in space, I imagine clothing with a space-faring race would be more rigid. Dresses and long skirts would need to be less flexible, possibly seeing a return of the classic cage dress with more rigidity—how uncomfortable that must be. Perhaps they could use a type of overlapping scales that are woven into the fabric, which would restrict movement in one direction but still provide the appearance of fluidity. I imagine shirts would also be tucked in more often and ties clipped.

Pants might see a drawstring design on the ankles or the always-in-fashion pantaloons of the early 19th century. At least cargo pants would still be fashionable and practical, right?

I could also picture short and medium hairstyles becoming normal; gone are the days of long-flowing locks. They would likely keep their hair pinned, slicked, or decorated, similar to the buns of the Tang dynasty in ancient China.

Shoes would be reduced to only accessories like rings, bracelets, and ornamental garments. Sadly shoulder purses would also have to be replaced with something like a backpack or wearable pouch perhaps.

I suppose it is also possible for clothing to be functional such as air-tight clothing or self-sealing fabric. Hoods that can be pulled over the head and function like a helmet. Pressurized cold nitrogen gas pockets within the material used for mobility or micro-flight.

The Coriolis effect and simulated gravity on board stations would affect fashion differently, but for this mental exercise, I was only thinking of strictly zero-g.
What exotic fashion could you imagine?

Personally, I believe that, as long as we can't produce/create some sort of artificial/augmented gravity in Space and on a low-gravity world, fashion will have to give way to form-fitting clothes (mostly flight suits or coveralls). Adding inconvenient clothes which could get in the way, on top of having the deleterious health effects of long-term exposure to zero/low gravity, would not make sense and would only add extra discomfort. There is also the problem of when the astronauts would return to Earth after long periods of zero/low G environment. The astronauts returning to Earth after six months on the ISS have to be hand-carried and helped out of their return capsule and then have to go through long weeks of rehabilitation. Even after those weeks of rehabilitation, many of them are left with permanent negative sequels (typically lower visual acuity). Creating artificial gravity of some sort will be vital for Humans before we could seriously start living off Earth.

One possible solution, apart from using centrifugal carroussels, would use what I call F.A.T. suits, coveralls covered with multiple small pockets distributed all around them and holding lead plaques that would make the body feel the same weight as if on Earth. A person wearing such a F.A.T. suit on Mars would thus have to make the same muscular effort while moving around, while carrying an extra 66% mass around his/her body. These new Martians could rest during their sleep periods inside sleeping carroussels which would allow them to sleep in their underwear under perceived Earth-level gravity, something that would go a long way to avoid long-term sequels from exposure to low or zero gravity. On spaceships large enough to accommodate them, rotating carroussels would allow near-normal conditions much of the time for their crews. If we are going to want to live and work off Earth, then we should be willing and ready to adapt to the conditions of Space.

What does “F.A.T” stand for?

Regarding long skirts and the return of the rigid structuring - I don’t think that would work. Crinolines/hoops/cages weren’t really rigid in the way you’re describing. The hoops were, but they were usually vertically attached to each other with fabric, so were flexible and even collapsible to varying degrees, depending on how they were made.

But they would be VERY impractical in zero g, even if they did provide rigidity and function to prevent the skirt from floating up. You wouldn’t want to bump into a wall and have the opposite end of your clothing pop out because of the hoop and potentially that bumps into someone or something else, knocks things out of place, accidentally press buttons etc.

I think skirts would be a low g option for stations or colonies but not anywhere that zero g would be likely. More likely we’d be in coveralls, or maybe leggings and form fitting shirts/jackets. You need your clothing to move with you, not against you.

I absolutely would not give up shoes though. Which is ironic considering I hate wearing shoes now. But I’m just envisioning accidentally breaking toes on a misjudged wall push off or something like that and I would definitely want some sort of protection on my toes.