Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

This is the thread for the May 2023 discussion of The Letters of Abélard and Héloïse.

Wahoo. The first and last time I read the letters, I was in my 20s. I so felt Heloise's love for Abelard. I am interested in seeing what I feel and think now

I'll start this in about 2 weeks time. Waiting for a copy from the library.

Which translation is everyone using?

The library copy arrived, Penguin edition translated by Betty Radice and revised by MT Clanchy. I'm going to have to read through the introduction in detail as I have heard of, but know virtually nothing about Abelard and Heloise.

Sam and Carolien my copy just came in the mail a couple of days ago. I will be able to start reading about the 7th and will read into July so that I can make tome to read the introdictory materials, the letters and the extra materials, including hymms by Abelard.

I too will be reading the Penguin edition:
The Letters of Abélard and Héloïse

I’m going to read the free Gutenberg edition, is that a bad choice? I don’t know if the editions from Gutenberg are good or bad, I’ve not heard anything about it either way. If anyone has any suggestions on a better edition to try or if this one should be ok, please let me know. I’m excited to read this one, I’ve always wanted to but never had the chance to pick it up.

Jen I checked the Gutenberg edition. The introductory materials seem sufficient. You will have to judge if the letters read easy enough or need a more modern translation.

Some other edition translations I sometimes use are Digiread, Mint Editions, and Neeland Media LLC. These editions are often available at Hoopla.

The translations of the letters seem to be more important that the background information in the edition chosen because the background information is available at standard sites such as Wikipedia or History.com. Also you could chose a YouTube video for background information. You don't need a whole lot if you have some Western Civ background.

ThoughtCo. provides good punches of information beyond just the most basic.
https://www.thoughtco.com/abelard-and...

There is a Librivox version of the letters. It is available on YouTube. I may be the last person to know--or not--that vids on YouTube can be speeded up.
https://youtu.be/tyZmFGq_HMQ

I am starting the introductory materials tonight from the Penguin edition. I will use the notes at the back of the book--at least look them over before reading each new letter.

Carolien since you are reading the Penguin edition and may be reading the introductory materials, I will condense some of tje information, enough to understand something of who Abelard was and Paris was.

Abelard knew his abilities as a rhetorician and teacher were stronger than his abilities as a servant, however important or well paid. The nature of servitude did not suit Abelard. Being a good or great rhetorician did.

Abelard taught at a time when schools were transitioning from monasteries to Cathedrals. Monasteries were less worldly strongholds of the Church while the Cathedrals were more worldly strongholds of the Church. We can see how Paris was organized on the back of the book. The palace and the cathedral were foot bridges apart while the monastery was a distance away, up against the city wall. What was filling in all that space? Merchants. They were a new thing, gaining power. They wanted their sons to be educated like those in power--those of government and the church.

Abelard could help the merchants have educated sons. Hearing echoes of John Shakespeare sending William Shakespeare to school? Yep, pretty much the same thing centuries later.

I opted for the William Levitan translation Abelard and Heloise: The Letters and Other Writings so I could follow along with the Naxos audiobook. It is a little longer with lots of footnotes but I am enjoying the slight bit I have read . It begins with the Calamities of Peter Abelard and has some other added writings.

Good Sam. Glad you found something that works. I have finished with the 50 pages of introductory material in the Penguin. Now I will start doing same thing as you, listening to the Naxos audio and read from my book when I want extra information.

I am running a bit behind I will catchup this weekend.

I am reading.
I have read Letter 1: Historia Calamitatum/History of Calumny: Abelard to a Friend: The Story of His Misfortunes.

The Church provided a way to advance professionally especially as monasteries and churches with their schools provided more opportunities. Abelard was sure if his new-fangled rhetorical style of disputation/obvious argumentation rather than information and educational presentation When professional fields change and newbies arrive in the professional field, there often is conflict, arguments, name calling, and legal problems. Much of that is happening in Abelard's world.

The largest problem, so it seems to me, is that Abelard makes no concessions, making free to tell others how they are wrong.

When Arbelard is required to toss his text in the fire, we do not hear of another copy. The rivals have successfully stopped that rhetorical argument.

In the times before the Bible becomes available at least to the literate Protestants of the Reformation, people did not know what the bible says, had no way of knowing what God's Intention, Will, Directions, etc. were, causing people to speculate about God and God's World. Those whose words and arguments were attractive sometimes became become folk heros, folk saints. This may in part what was going on with Abelard.

A few centuries later, those who spoke freely about their personal revelations, their big questions, their opinions about God would be fodder for the various Inquisitions and burned at stake. Abelard because his own value/reputation or through the graciousness of the powers that were, only had to sacrfrice his writing.

Unfortunately we have nothing to tell us about the new and exciting ideas Abelard had, ideas that were so troublesome.

Reading the Historia Calamitatum provides an opportunity to consider how literature, history, and philosophy were closely combined into the 19th century and even into the 20th.

Letters were literary documents were written to someone in particular (maybe) and then circulated around as a more economical way through time-consuming way to spread ideas than hiring a scribe and paying for paper. These letters were intended to share some truth and some argument about one's own viewpoint or actions. In rhetorical theory, everything is an argument.

I´m reading the German translation. So far I also read the first letter by Abelard to a friend about his misfortunes.

I will add some thoughts tomorrow once everone has read Heloise's first letter. I found that to be the most interesting voice so far and will be looking forward to thoughts.

about Letters 2 and 3.
about Letter 2: Heloise to Abelard.
Here we read the words of a woman calling to her lover. Ahw has done her best to submit submit submit to her beloved husband's request that she enter the convent. She has submitted so well that now she is in a position of service and power.

Now she reads a letter he wrote to another., full of concern, comfort, and strength. Memories flood her mind and heart. She writes Abelard with love, longing, and hope.


about Letter 3: Abelard to Heloise
Abelard disappoints. Why would he do that?
He had made a committment to the Church. He fully intended to fulfill his commitment. For all we know, one the behind-door-agreements he made with the agents of the Inquistion is that would commit his life to God within the walls of a monastry. If he relents, starts thinking if Heloise as more than his sister in Christ, tje cknsequences for him, his work, maybe for Heloise, maybe their son would be grave.

Best to not underestimate the power of the Inquisition.


Other reasons too are possible. Perhaps I am being overly dramatic. It does happen. So what do you all think?

about Letters 4 and 5: I hear Resentments that cannot or will not be resolved.
about Letter 4: Heloise to Abelard.
Heloise is frustrated. She did not want to go the convent. She submitted to a way of life for which she had no vocation. I can feel how she has had enough of the falsehoods. She wants to live her truth with Abelard. She requires explanation. I dunno that these explanations really help, but still something to answer the question what happened here can be repeated be like a mantra until something lodges in the understanding.

about Letter 5
Abelard has a different truth. He remembers her and them and their passion. Since whatever they might express with their bodies is not sufficent for him, he is more willing to be committed and somewhat satisfied/fully satisfied with his vocation. He has some fulfillment and satisfaction teaching, being a canon. To put some emotional distance between them--probably because he seriously hurts too--Abelard writes a formal rebuttal. I am sad for both Heloise and Abelard. It could have been very different.

I have finished this, but to be honest I went through letter six and seven on remote as I had no more iinterest in the rambling party-line arguments of Abelard by then. The value in this work is in Heoise's letters to Abelard which I find original, poetic, outspoken and a forerunner of today's feminism in spirit if not content. The first letter rivals Dylan Thomas' Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night in its emotional call to arms. Abelard's letters are fine if you want arguments in theosophy but not as entertaining to the reader that hasn't that interest. It is my understanding that the publication of these came about through Abelard and I imagine the authorship is in question but the Wikpedia article on Heloise establishes her as a likely author. My translated edition had Heloise's letters printed in poetic form, which certainly fit the translation. Although not fully entertained, it was good to knock this off the tbr.

I've finally ditched the one library book that I felt I should read and I just couldn't get into 3 tries later. I'm finishing up a book for work and hope to really get into this starting Tuesday. I look forward to catching up with your comments, Cynda!

Good to hear from you Carolien! I will read some more of the letters today. Some paperwork has slowed me, but that is wrapping up. So here I go. . . .

a bit more about Letter 5.
Near the end of the letter, Abelard turns paternalistic.

Take this to heart, I pray, and blush for shame, unless you would commend the wanton vileness of our former ways. And so I ask you, sister, to accept patiently what mercifully befell us. This is father's rod, not a persecutor's sword.

This paternalism bothers me for two reasons:
1. For my own sake. I live in a society where women fight for political and economic parity.
2. For Heloise's sake. Her longing for him is met with the disrespect of shame-placing. I am hurt for her and disgusted by Abelard's cruelty. Maybe cruelty it had to be so she will not return to the topic of connection when Abelard has become content to live without her or their passion.

All I could think of by the point you've reached, is how much more interesting the letters would have been if Heloise had been imatched with someone like John Donne.

I read till Letter 5 too, and found the difference between Heloise´s love letters and Abelard´s philosophical/religious and often domineering letters quite extreme. What astonished me - but that were obviously the times then - was that Heloise herself submitted to Abelard, being "only" a woman.

Yes exactly, Sam, someone whose passion stood the test of time.

Michaela, I had to ponder on what you said. I think that in Heloise's case she did in some ways feel like "only" a woman. Even today women sometimes submit to their men and the resultant feeling may be feeling like "only" a woman. We have different physical and social constraints. In a time of complex machinery and electronics, we may not feel those constraints as much.

Part of the "only" a woman understanding that Heloise has in Letter 5 comes from the very real slow, complicated, hard lives all Europeans had. The farmwork that Heloise describes is far more difficult than managing a kitchen/herbal garden or a container garden. Here are some reminders for those of us who live in the 21st century--I had to go away to remember them:

1. Crop rotation was new and limited land use. So maybe adequate crops for survival but maybe not fullest strength.
2. Fertilizers were only natural fertilizers that farm workers had to gather, tote, distribute. We just call the fertilizer company for farming co-op to deliver.
3. Plows such were available in the 19th-century to pull behind a beast of burden did not exist. Only some farmers had the wealth--such as monasteries and convents--to have a hand-pushed plow. Many farmers still made do with a crooked branch to pull behind them. The results were the seeds laid higher up on earth, more likely to be eaten by birds and other seed-eaters.
4. Harvesting was done by hand. Removing desirable plant parts may have been done by beating off the desired food parts.

The idea I think is made: Agricultural work was had back-breaking, strength-sapping work. It was not work for "only" a woman.

This is why in Letter 6 she asks Abelard for direction of how tp write up rules for the convent--in part.

In letter 6
Heloise makes a good case that monastic rule developed and written for women will provide direction and safety.

When Heloise makes this request for monastic rule for women, I remember that long ago when I was first exposed to this love story, I knew that Heloise's attraction was in large part how smart Abelard was, how new his ideas were, how he used words, words for proof on his ideas--logos as rhetoricians understand it--word-based, logic-based arguments.

The arguments that Heloise and Arbelard in his turn use are word-based, logic-based arguments. To some degree they speak the same language. This is why where other women might turn into a screaming terror of a person, Heloise complies. She jas made her argument. He makes his. She is heartbroken. She cannot make her argument work anymore effectively. She will have to to be heartbroken. The heartbeak is hers to bear.

So she changes direction or flow of her conversation. She asks for directions of how to run a convent. She wants Abelard's input.

I am convinced that not only does Heloise ask Abelard for help becaise she wants to continue to talk with him, she wants his logical self writing to her. She loves his logic. At least she can have his words.

It is possible.

about Letter 7
Seems Abelard made a bigger commitment to The Church that did Heloise. Yeah, we know that, but I did not fully realize that Abelard had made a commitment to how he would forevermore idealize virginal women. He does speak of Jesus speaking to and instructing public harlots, but the virgins win hands down on who Abelard most appreciates. . . . I have a sneaking little thought that Abelard wishes that Heloise would become a retro-virgin for his convenience, definitely not hers.

I will take my time to read Letter 8 as it is over 80/pages in my book.

Sam I do understand and agree about the feminism in spirit, if not in content.

Sam, the nuns of medieval convents are professionals/proto-professionals as much as they are as a group proto-feminists. An abbess has tje charge of the whole convent--the spiritul and the temporal. (Think: temporary concerns, not eternal ones.) Depending on how large a convent is a nun is in charge of the farms and gardens. There is a head cook in a time where the big kitchen tools would have been cleavers and forks based on pitch forks and butter churns. There is a record keeper of accounts/bills/crops/life and death records.

All these professionals worked with underlings in a time when things were written by hand, lugged on a back, done with little medical knowledge of how to stay healthy, done by women who were directed to be honorable, neat, hardworking but not told exactly what those directions meant. The rules that Heloise asks of Abelard not only keep her in contact, but maybe will bring her convent residents helpful guidelines. There is a comfort in knowing what is expected.

Thanks Cynda for all your comments! I liked the "retro-virgin" part. ;)

I rushed over the last letters and the additions, and confess I didn´t really find it as interesting as I had thought. It may be that it´s because I know too little about Abelard and his religious and philosophical views and studies and those times on the whole. And there wasn´t so much by Heloise who was more or less forced to take the veil.

The epilogue of my German edition said that in the first half of the 20th century an expert thought that Heloise´s letters were also written by Abelard, but this was obviously proved wrong, as their writing style and themes were similar, as they had (at least partly) the same education and interests.

I found it interesting that Abelard had also written music, and my husband said he had CD which contained some of his work. Will have to look for it and listen to it tomorrow.

Thanks Michaela. Penguin did a better job backgrounding the text, better than I have ever seen them do. Yetnif a reader does not knkw about the emergence of cities, some bare-bones Church history, rhetorical education, the Inquistion, then the storoes andnthreads within the letters can make little sense. I just know enough to feel fairly not strongly competent.

about Letter Exchange with Pete the Venerable. There seems to been something about Heloise! Peter the Venerable also loved her as a good Christian woman, a good abbess.

Although Heloise did not feel holy or committed to convent life, her actions show that she was committed enough. That the convent thrived indicates her commitment to good work. There would be no way to be that good an abbess if she was not somehow committed in her being.

I suspect that being underappreciated by the love of her life who asked/demanded she enter the convent made her question herself in a variety of ways, including her commitment to the convent.

Being the intelligent woman she was, Heloise took what opportunities she could to what we would call networking tk get Abelard's name cleared and to get her son a clerical position if possible.

I will come back to talk about Abelard.

As much as I want Abelard to declare his love, ride his horse to the Abbey of the Paraclete, storm the doors, call for Heloise, and then claim her body and soul, it cannot be.

Abelard has been beaten down by Heloise's uncle, by professional struggles, by the Inquisition.

Maybe Abelard was never as committed to her as she was to him. My professor of literature who was of Louisiana French stock, meaning he had a cultural clue or two I wouldn't have, said that Abelard had used his intellectual powers to seduce Heloise. Heloise was in love with ideas. Abelard showed her more ideas. He taught her things. . . . and then the variety of difficulties came.

I am done with Abelard. For good.