Victorians! discussion

Welcome to Week 5! Last week we said our final farewells to little Paul. While Florence still grieves her brother terribly, Mr. Dombey is finding a renewed interest in life as he pals around Leamington with Joey B. (aka Major Bagshot). One reason for this could be his new acquaintances, Mrs. Skewton and Mrs. Granger. Mrs. Skewton is described hilariously as an old woman, “about seventy,” who dresses in a manner “which would have been youthful for twenty-seven” (287-88). She had been a much-admired beauty in her youth, and due to a portrait taken of her in a barouche being likened to Cleopatra, she presents herself to the public in a wheeled chair piloted by a page, “there being nothing whatever, except the attitude, to prevent her from walking” (288). She clings desperately to her youth with her flirtatious simpering, and her “false curls and false eyelashes . . . her false teeth, set off by her false complexion” (287). She unintentionally lampoons herself when speaking to Mr. Dombey about nature.

“What I want,’ drawled Mrs. Skewton, pinching her shrivelled throat, ‘is heart.’ It was frightfully true in one sense, if not in that in which she used the phrase. ‘What I want, is frankness, confidence, less conventionality, and freer play of soul. We are so dreadfully artificial."
We were, indeed (289).

Travelliing with her is her daughter, Mrs. Edith Granger, “a much younger lady, very handsome, very haughty, very wilful” (286). Now, a lot of men would not consider traits like “haughty” and “wilful” as the most attractive, but Mr. Dombey is not most men. For Mr. Dombey, someone who “expressed in all her elegant form, from head to foot, the same supreme disregard of everything and everybody” is irresistible, apparently (290). She comes from a genteel but poor family and was married to a 41-year-old Colonel at the age of 18. He left her a widow after two years of marriage, and so she has remained for almost ten years. She also, according to the Major, had a son who drowned at the age of four or five. This catches Dombey’s attention. Is he thinking of his own son and sympathizing with her loss, or is he thinking that here is proof that she can bear children, and sons at that?

Mr. Dombey and Joey B. go to visit the ladies at their lodgings, which were fashionable but extremely small. Edith impresses Mr. Dombey not only with her many musical accomplishments but by her air of haughty disdain. Pride, arrogance, and disdain in a woman are like a siren’s song to his cold heart! When she plays the song that Florence sang to her brother, he is unmoved, but we then segue to the next chapter.

Chapter XXII opens with Mr. Carker, the Manager, perusing business letters. He is likened to both a crafty card player and a cat; “feline from sole to crown was Mr. Carker the Manager . . . Mr. Carker the Manager, sly of manner, sharp of tooth, soft of foot, watchful of eye, oily of tongue, cruel of heart, nice of habit, sat with a dainty steadfastness and patience at his work, as if he were waiting at a mouse’s hole” (298-99). (I do so love Dickens’ parallel structure!)

When he rings the bell for an underling, his brother appears, much to his displeasure. A little more of their background is revealed in the ensuing conversation. They have a sister named Harriet who, forced to choose between her brothers years earlier, threw her lot in with John, the elder. She loves both brothers but chose to stay with John because without her, he would be completely alone. In this exchange, James comes across as implacably unforgiving and hateful.

After dismissing his brother, Mr. Carker reads a letter from Dombey in which he informs the manager that he plans to extend his stay in Leamington and asks him to let someone else go to the West Indies and to keep Walter in England. Mr. Carker clearly derives great enjoyment from the fact that this is impossible.

Mr. Carker then agrees to see Biler Toodle. When the boy enters, Mr. Carker grabs him by the throat and proceeds to choke him! After grilling the weeping boy over his bad habits, he pushes him into a corner and asks Uncle Sol to come in. He arranges for Walter’s uncle to take Rob (Biler) to help him around the shop during Walter’s absence. Mr. Carker then goes to the Toodles’ home to inform them of his plans for Rob. Rob follows Mr. Carker as he rides off on his horse like a dog following its master. It is so strange that everyone on the street is staring at them. What is this odd effect that Mr. Carker has had on Rob? Why is the boy unable to take his eyes off of him? Is it just fear, or has Rob just become Carker’s creature to the point of slavishness?

The family immediately assumes that Rob is in trouble and is most relieved to find that this is not the case. I especially loved the description of how the younger Toodles children, “unable to control the transports of emotion appertaining to their time of life, threw themselves on their backs like young birds when terrified by a hawk, and kicked violently” (309). It amuses me to try to picture this! :) Mr. Carker makes it clear that this fabulous opportunity has nothing to do with Mr. Dombey; “he, Mr. Carker, was the be-all and the end-all of this business” (310). No doubt his plans include some necessity for the Toodles to owe their loyalty to him over Mr. Dombey.

We find that Mr. Carker’s motive for this is for Rob to inform him of any goings-on in the place that involves Florence. After leaving the Toodles' house, he makes his way to Dombey’s place and is surprised to find Mr. Toots there. Mr. Toots has decided that he is in love with Florence and has also decided that the best way to gain her love is to get in good with Susan Nipper. For some unfathomable reason, he thinks that attempting to kiss Susan is the smart move. How this is supposed to prove his love for Florence, I can’t quite understand. Mr. Toots putting the moves on Susan enrages Diogenes, who attacks him and bites his leg. Mr. Carker witnesses this altercation and under cover of concern for Mr. Toots, is able to obtain his card with his information on it. We can see that his cat-like abilities extend to stalking!

Chapter XXIII opens with a description of how the house is falling into decay while Florence lives there alone. She spends her time pining for her father and imagining life if her mother had survived or if her father loved her. She is comforted by the belief that, wherever her mother and brother are, they are together and they love her and are watching over her. She becomes convinced that if her father only knew how much she loves him, everything will be different.

Florence accepts an invitation to visit Sir Barnet and Lady Skettles. She decides to go and visit Uncle Sol before leaving on this trip. She and Susan find Uncle Sol away from home but they make the acquaintance of Rob Toodle, now living with Uncle Sol and spying on him for Mr. Carker. Unable to see Uncle Sol, they go to Captain Cuttle’s and find him in open warfare with his landlady, Mrs. MacStinger. He reassures their fears for Walter’s safety, and we learn that he has taken to referring to Florence as “Heart’s Delight.” To further reassure them, he decides that they need to visit Captain Bunsby, the smartest man he knows. Apparently, his wisdom is born of concussions! They collect him at his boat and set off to return to Uncle Sol’s house. Poor Susan has yet another male making unwelcome advances; Captain Bunsby is determined to hug her to his side, so she makes sure to keep her distance from him. Florence notices that Uncle Sol is acting peculiarly. Captain Bunsby pronounces his advice, which is pretty incomprehensible to everyone but Captain Cuttle, who finds it profound. Captain Cuttle is so disturbed by Uncle Sol’s behavior that he instructs Rob to pay close attention to his master, and he himself stays close.

At the Skettles home, Florence studies the children to try to figure out the mystery of how a child gets a parent to love them only to reach the conclusion that they cannot be a model for her. The uninhibited expressions of love given by the little children would not work for her situation. She is beginning to reach the point where she believes that her mother would also, if she had lived, learn to dislike Florence for whatever reason her father has. While knowing that this is unfair to her mother’s memory, she is unable to escape it. She overhears a conversation between an orphaned child and the child’s aunt and realizes that others know her situation and that she is sincerely pitied and held blameless. This conversation, instead of relieving her anxiety, only motivates her more to protect her father. She still thinks that if she lets him know her feelings, he will relent toward her.

She has another conversation with a poor man whom she sees scavenging for food and resources. He has a daughter who is sullen and bad-tempered. Despite this, he clearly adores his daughter and wants always to be with her. He reveals that she is ill and he doesn’t expect her to be around much longer; therefore, he needs to spend as much time as possible with her. Rather alarmingly, Florence begins to wonder if her father would change the way he treats her if she became terminally ill, like her brother. I’m sincerely hoping that she doesn’t court some kind of illness or infirmity to try out this theory!

While out walking with Sir Barnet, Lady Skettles, and Skettles Junior, they have a chance encounter with Mr. Carker. If he is dreaming of bridals with Florence, it is not looking too promising! While he engages them in conversation, Florence draws back from him, for “something in the gentleman himself–Florence could not have said what–that made her recoil as if she had been stung” (351). When he speaks directly to her, she is “sensible of a strange inclination to shiver, though the day was hot” (351). He addresses her directly and asks if she has anything to send Mr. Dombey. She replies only her dear love, knowing somehow that Mr. Carker knows how false this is. He leaves and Florence is unable to suppress a shudder of distaste as he rides off.

In the last chapter for this week, Rob appears at Captain Cuttle’s house in the morning to announce that Sol has disappeared. After the Captain’s initial suspicion that Rob had something to do with it, he decides that Rob is not involved. Uncle Sol has left a letter for the Captain in which he details his wishes, along with his will and his advice not to try to find him. Quietly, the Captain is wondering whether Sol has committed suicide, unable to bear the absence of his dear Walter. He decides to follow Sol’s wishes, the main one being his desire that the Midshipmen be kept open for Walter’s return. This involves the Captain taking up residence there, leaving his lodgings at Mrs. MacStinger’s. Confronting this redoubtable lady and informing her of this proves too much for him, and he decides he must flee in the dead of night. He instructs Rob to be ready for his knock the following night and to open the door quickly, because, he tells him, “there may be, for anything I can say, a chase; and I might be took while I was waiting, if you didn’t show yourself smart with the door” (359). His opinion of his importance to Mrs. MacStinger is high, indeed!

To compound the Captain’s guilt, Mrs. MacStinger chose that night be to unusually kind to him. He does flee and makes it safely to the Midshipmen, but, convinced that his former landlady is still intent on getting him back, he constantly hides in the attic for the next several days, each time he sees a woman in a bonnet nearby.

So where do you think Sol has gone, and what is he doing? Why do you think Mr. Carker started choking Biler before he even spoke to him? Why did it have such a strange effect on the boy? Do you think Walter has experienced a shipwreck? Do you think he will reach the West Indies safely? Would Dombey and Edith Granger be a match made in–well, maybe not Heaven, but someplace else? Maybe someplace a little warmer? How will this affect Florence? What do you think about Florence’s continuing pining for her father?

These are just some of the questions that were raised for me during the reading. Did you wonder the same things, or did you have other questions? Please share!

I just have a series of passing thoughts this week…

- Carker gets creepier as the novel wears on. He reminds me of Uriah Heap from David Copperfield, but we see him bullying and shaking his brother mercilessly. I think he would do that and worse if given the chance. I hate to think of any of the characters within his clutches.

- Florence’s loyalty is fierce and to her credit. She is still young enough to believe that her father’s lack of affection is something that can be won. Or is something that has anything to do with her, her behavior, her worthiness. I wish this was not the reality for many children. Emotionally distant, manipulative, &/or narcissistic parents exist in every age.

-I can’t believe that Uncle Sol would commit suicide. I could see him digging up his old navy buddies and manning a rescue… but I don’t know that he has enough information to make that feasible. It would be a cool storyline, though.

-I hope Florence gets to keep Susan Nipper and the orphan girl in her circle of friends. She’s so solitary and so filled with grief.

-Dombey may deserve the haughty widow, but I have to wonder about the effect of their marriage on the other characters. (I’m not a fan of Joey B. or his manipulations. Dombey is such an easy target that I am actually feeling a bit sorry for him. And that poor servant!)

-We have a lot of chapters left to go and I don’t see things getting better for a long, long while. Please forgive me if I fall behind. I can get disheartened when the books I read run too dark.

I am really making an effort to appreciate and like Dickens with this group read. I have not done badly so far, but I'm afraid I'm losing steam with these chapters.

Dickens' characters are just not for me, it seems. - For a painter, one of the difficult things to decide is when to stop. One stroke too few, one too many, and the painting degenerates from first rate to second ... or third. Now Dickens, in my view, is one who cannot stop himself from adding a sort of thick, black, cartoonish outline to his drawing of a character, and this, for me, spoils the picture:

Mrs. Skewton and Mrs. Granger are just a little 'too much so', Carker becomes a typical villain, etc.

I am curious enough about the story to go on reading, but I am not captivated.

Sabagrey-
I struggled with this section, too, but have since read ahead into next week’s chapters. I don’t want to ‘spoil’ but at least one of the characters demonstrates unexpected depth. The revelation lifted the storyline for me, and I have renewed interest. :)

Renee wrote: "Sabagrey-
I struggled with this section, too, but have since read ahead into next week’s chapters. I don’t want to ‘spoil’ but at least one of the characters demonstrates unexpected depth. The rev..."

thank you for the encouragement! ;-) - as I said, I won't give up!

Renee wrote: "I just have a series of passing thoughts this week…

- Carker gets creepier as the novel wears on. He reminds me of Uriah Heap from David Copperfield, but we see him bullying and shaking his brothe..."

Very insightful reading Renee. Carker is akin to Mr. Heap.

Florence's steadfastness and loyalty are to be admired.

Yes. Susan Nipper is Flo's sole support right now.

Feeling sorry for Dombey? You should feel sorry for the widow for being a miserable wretch.

I kind of like the character of Bagstock. Some comedic relief while putting up with Dombey, the widow, and Carker.

Despite the heavy dose of melancholy in this section, I focused on the ‘romance’ that was in the air.

As soon as Walter seems lost somewhere on the ocean waves, it felt like hoards of other suitors (well at least two) began to come out of the woodwork and pursue Florence.

Toots and Carker (the manager) are almost exact opposites, but neither are suitable for Florence. I don’t want Florence condemned by the ‘teeth’ to even more misery for the rest of her life. She would be much better off holed up in the decaying mansion with Susan. Fortunately Diogenes’ teeth might keep Carker’s at bay.



Toots’ confrontation with the dog did make me laugh though.


(Mr Toots becomes particular—Diogenes also)

’ ‘If the dog’s teeth have entered the leg, Sir —’ began Carker, with a display of his own’ ‘No, thank you,’ said Mr. Toots, ‘it’s all quite right. It’s very comfortable, thank you.’

Lurking Carker has lingered like a bad smell wafting through these chapters, culminating in his meeting with Florence whilst out with the Skettles. His romantic designs are calculated, literally, to make him a rich man, seeing Florence as the heir to the Dombey estate.

As for Susan, the poor girl has been ‘confronted’ at least three times by over amorous ‘gentlemen’ in her role as protectress of Florence. Nevertheless she responded well with a threat to Toots and cool aloofness towards Captain Cuttle and his friend Bunsby. And I would be backing Susan, despite her youth, to win with a technical knockout if there ever was a fight between her and Mrs. MacStinger.

And to conclude this romantic interlude, I am somewhat surprised how quickly Dombey has pulled himself together to show an interest in the young widow. Is the reason purely practical……to produce another son?

Trev wrote: "I am somewhat surprised how quickly Dombey has pulled himself together to show an interest in the young widow.."

I agree. This comes along quite quickly, and unexpectedly. Just as quickly and unexpectedly as Dombey befriending Major Bagshot. Neither event feels wholly believable to me.

I do so love this book! i do hope those of you feeling that it is too long and too dark will consider sticking with it, there are such plot twists and wonderful parts to come for these characters that this section lays the foundation for, in my mind here Dickens' genius shines at his best -

I have to say that in my many readings i never thought that Carker (who i think is such a terrific villain) was trying to romance Florence, just to menace her in his evil way as he is doing to so many others for his devious purposes...

And that the attraction to Edith is the attraction of pride: of meeting someone who is as proud and haughty as him, and of thinking that he, now diminished by not being able to save his son with what he possesses, can build himself back up with allying with her. And that the Major is manipulating him to build himself up as well.

And love the heroine Susan and that she could best Mrs MacStinger (and anyone else!) any day...

Renee wrote: "She is still young enough to believe that her father’s lack of affection is something that can be won. Or is something that has anything to do with her, her behavior, her worthiness...."

This is true. I feel impatient at times with her devotion to him, as unworthy as he is, but I know her reactions are rooted in reality. Kids do seek justification for an abusive/neglectful parent and often blame themselves for that parent's totally unacceptable, unwarranted behavior. So sad!

We have a lot of chapters left to go and I don’t see things getting better for a long, long while. Please forgive me if I fall behind. I can get disheartened when the books I read run too dark.

I already read your other comment about how your interest has been rekindled, so yay! I'm so glad! I myself am very interested to see how these various storylines turn out.

Sabagrey, even though I am an unrepentant fan of Dickens, I recognize that many people (most of my friends!) find him tedious in the extreme. It is true that many of his characters are actually caricatures, that many of his female characters are one dimensional, and that his plots sometimes rely heavily on coincidence. Yet I still love him and would choose his books to take to a desert island. I admire you for trying this one, and I hope you stick with it. Even if you don't like the novel, I appreciate your comments and insights.

A bunch of unrelated thoughts: This section dialed up the tension and the sorrow. I don't know what Mr. Carker the Manager is up to, but his aims are certainly evil. I don't think Uncle Sol has committed suicide. He may be trying to find a ship that will take him to Walter's destination, although his chances of finding Walter seem doubtful in the extreme (and I don't think Walter is dead). Mr. Dombey clearly has the widow in mind for a possible next wife. His whole aim in life is to have an heir, so she presents new possibilities. Florence is the perfect picture of the neglected child who blames herself for the parent's coldness, The reality is that Mr. Dombey was disappointed in her from birth since she was a female. He chose to ignore her existence, and when Paul was born, he grew jealous of the closeness that he and Florence had. Diogenes, Susan Nipper, and Captain Cuttle are great characters. Joey B is a jerk. And I absolutely agree that there is a great mental resemblance between Mr. Carker the Manager and Uriah Heep.

I cannot help thinking that it was no coincidence that Major Bagshot met Mrs. Skewton and daughter: was it all planned beforehand to catch Dombey?

Ooh, I never thought of that. It would remove the threat of Mr. Dombey marrying Miss Tox, which Joey B considers a real possibility.

The Carkers - These chapters have raised my suspicions that Carker the manager is not just obnoxious but more villainous than I first thought.

Even though the elder Carker (the junior) finds every opportunity to admonish himself for his past misdemeanours, the fact that his sister chose to be with him rather than the toothy brother indicates that maybe the blame is misplaced. Is the reason for the sister’s allegiance just sympathy or does she know something more about the situation between the brothers?

I would also agree with Cindy that the grinning, panther-like ‘predator’ has been stalking Florence, both in person and by using Rob as an informant.

Carker obviously wanted Walter out of the way more than Dombey did.

Why does Carker want to find out so much about Florence and her movements? His ‘bad penny’ appearance at the Skettles, which left Florence ‘shivering and shuddering,’ seemed sinister and in no way coincidental.

Nancy wrote: "It would remove the threat of Mr. Dombey marrying Miss Tox, which Joey B considers a real possibility.."

Oh, I never thought of this motive! I rather thought of favours or obligations of monetary or other kind.

Trev wrote: "Fortunately Diogenes’ teeth might keep Carker’s at bay...."

Good one, Trev! LOL

Lurking Carker has lingered like a bad smell wafting through these chapters, . . .

Very apt imagery! He is insidious and toxic, just like a bad odor.

And to conclude this romantic interlude, I am somewhat surprised how quickly Dombey has pulled himself together to show an interest in the young widow. Is the reason purely practical……to produce another son?

I'm not really surprised. He has made it clear that the only thing that really matters to him is his dream of having a son, not the actual son. Little Paul, at his tender age, was still just the means to an end. When Dombey grieves, he is grieving the death of his dream, not the child himself. Dombey doesn't really KNOW the child. He isn't interested in his thoughts or dreams. He indulges the boy's desires and feelings because of the exalted spot he would one day fill--to him, that position should have privileges.

Then he is introduced to the widow and she has several things in her favor. She is young, she is beautiful, she is well-born, and she has born a son. To top it off, she is poor, making it more likely that she will be motivated to accept him and his wealth despite any personal feelings. The icing on the cake is her frosty, arrogant demeanor, which suits Dombey to a T. She's the whole package! Dombey's radar goes off as plan B begins to form in his mind. He thought his dream was dead, but a second chance has presented itself. He doesn't even have to worry that she will prove infertile--she has already borne a child, and has proven that she can produce sons. It's not a romantic attraction (at least it doesn't seem so to me at this point) as much as it is transactional, like everything else with him. Everyone is a means to an end, and she seems a prime candidate to help him reach his goal. Personally, I think he's already picking out boy names!

Nancy wrote: "Sabagrey, even though I am an unrepentant fan of Dickens, I recognize that many people (most of my friends!) find him tedious in the extreme. It is true that many of his characters are actually car..."

I second everything you said!! :)

Cindy wrote: "It's not a romantic attraction (at least it doesn't seem so to me at this point) as much as it is transactional, like everything else with him.."

But still he is fascinated by Mrs. Granger - maybe more than is good for him? If he were only after breeding stock, he could have chosen a wife more like his first one.

Sydney wrote: "I have to say that in my many readings i never thought that Carker (who i think is such a terrific villain) was trying to romance Florence, just to menace her in his evil way as he is doing to so many others for his devious purposes......"

My feeling is that he is setting the stage for a romance down the road. I'm a little unclear on how old Florence actually is. I thought she was more like 13-14, but with these guys coming out of the woodwork (to steal Trev's phrase), maybe she's actually more like 16? Still too young to marry, though. I think Carker's trying to get his foot in the door and make sure that as soon as she becomes of a reasonable age to marry, he will be right there, and no one else will be vying for her attention. It also seems to me, Trev, that Sir Barnet and Lady Skettles are pretty determined to pair Skettles Junior with Florence at their house. He doesn't seem interested, but I think they would like to have her fortune in the family.

sabagrey wrote: "I cannot help thinking that it was no coincidence that Major Bagshot met Mrs. Skewton and daughter: was it all planned beforehand to catch Dombey?"

I had the same thought, sabagrey! I don't think it was uncommon, especially for someone like him, who seems to have a large acquaintance and connections to upper-class people, to peddle their influence to the highest bidder. He may have been promised either money or other favors if he manages to make the match come about.

sabagrey wrote: "Cindy wrote: "But still he is fascinated by Mrs. Granger - maybe more than is good for him? If he were only after breeding stock, he could have chosen a wife more like his first one...."

I think his first wife was attractive, wasn't she? I seem to remember mention of that. Florence is considered to be pretty and seems to resemble her. I think, having married Florence's mother at a younger age, he wasn't able to assess her reproductive abilities. There seems to be a pretty big gap between Florence and Paul, so either there were no children produced during that time, or none that survived. Paul himself was sickly from birth, so another strike against the first Mrs. Dombey's childbearing score.

Mrs. Granger apparently had a healthy son (he died by drowning, not an illness) within two years of marriage. I would think that, as Victorian risk assessments go, this is pretty good! She might win points for vigilance since her son drowned, but we aren't given the particulars, so maybe it was not preventable.

I also think Dombey might now see the first Mrs. Dombey's sweet disposition as less attractive. Maybe he thinks Mrs. Granger's more astringent qualities will result in a more resilient child. I don't know--I'm just speculating!

sabagrey wrote: "I cannot help thinking that it was no coincidence that Major Bagshot met Mrs. Skewton and daughter: was it all planned beforehand to catch Dombey?"

That is what I think too. The major is a cajoler.