Reading 1001 discussion

Review thread: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Prequestions
1. Have you read any Goethe before?
2. What translation and source are you reading?
3. What are your expectation as you start the book?


Johann Wolfgang von Goethe; is a German author of poems, essays, drama and plays, novels and scientific studies. He served in many capacities and had a wide range of influence.

1. What are the key points in the novel?

2. Why did Goethe write Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship?

3. Goethe understood architecture and could write about it so that the reader could visualize it. What are some of the architectures mentioned in the book and what did they communicate to the reader. (I found 4 of them when looking up this book).

4. What is the point of Book Six?

5. Examine Goethe’s natural philosophy, the sociological aspects of his writings, and his influence on German theater.

6. How did you experience the book? Why do you think it was included in 1001 books you must read?

7. Describe the book in 5 words or less.

Please add your own comments, questions, and thoughts.

Prequestions:
1. I'd read The Sorrows of Young Werther, although it was so long ago that I don't remember much.
2. I listened to an audiobook which is a revised version of the 19th century translation by Thomas Carlyle. It didn't seem outdated so I think they did a good job of the revision.
3. I wasn't expecting much because I was so underwhelmed by The Stechlin last month. But I was much more impressed with this.

Question 1, the key points of the novel, for me, were:
- the idea of the puppet show (and theatre in general) and how this has a deep and philosophical meaning for all we do, and yet is often undervalued (but sometimes overvalued)
- the importance of following your heart, staying faithful, but also being willing to let go and change your path at the right moment - as Wilhelm does both in occupation and in love.

Question 2, my belief is that authors write the books they feel they need to write the most.

The next questions, I'm struggling with. Having listened to it on audio, I have nothing I can flick through for answers. I don't remember anything about architecture, except for the place that burnt down, which I pictured as a Tudor-style warren with lots of small rooms, confusing corridors, low ceilings and wooden beams. But that's an English architectural style so probably completely wrong.
I don't know which part was Book Six.

6. I enjoyed it. My attention wandered at times, but not as much as I expected for a book of this era. I found it thought-provoking, and in its day it must have been groundbreaking.

7. Deep, entertaining; angst to contentment.

Books six is the part “Confessions of a Beautiful Soul” starts with Narcissus (a male) and a female. I am not sure who the female is and why this is a part of the book. Just looking for some insights.

There is a whole lot of architecture; The ones noted in the source I was looking at are Lotherio’s Estate (which might be the one you’re recalling), Hall of the Past,
Theresa House, Natalie House. Not sure about my spelling.

I just finished. This is my first Goethe though he wrote so much and so much variety, maybe I’ve been exposed but unaware that I had. I listened ton the audio which was updated version, Read by Leighton Pugh. This was his second novel, published in 1795/6. One could say this was a coming of age story It is also considered a Bildungsroman. It is considered an influential novel of through the 19th century so therefor I guess it belongs on the 1001 list. This was a revision of Thomas Carlyle’s translation to improve on the archaic style.

I also have a book from the collected works, volume 9. Which is the work we read. This was translated by Eric A. Black wall and is slightly different from the audio version.

After reading the German novels or German based novels that we read recently, I was a bit dreadful but this turned out to be very readable. I thought is a bit long and at times it didn’t flow well for me but at least it had a plot.

The key points seem to me to be theater, especially Shakespeare. It also included exploration of social class structure or social integration. And about finding one’s way in life. (From my afterword).

There is quite a bit about architecture which I paid little attention to until I read that Goethe had a keen sense of architecture and could describe it such that the reader could actually picture it. Lotherio’s Estate; a nobleman’s home is suppose to show us that his home wasn’t that pretentious. It also had a secret side where a secret society met. The Hall of the Past featured art and music. I am not sure about the others. Theresa and Natalie’s houses tell us about their stations in life (both women whom Wilhelm loved. Theresa interacts with nature. Natalie is more art and spirit and less natural.

Problems with the book for me is the disunity. Thus my question on Book 6. Here’s what my afterword has on book 6. “Where does Book Six fit in? Can it be conceived as a transition to the last two books: if so, in what sense? And those last two books; predominately concerned with ideas and debates about ideas, and yet shot through with elements that seem to fit uneasily into a novel on the ideational plane…” The novel was written at two different periods of Goethe’s life.

(ETA; Book 6 is the memoir’s of Natalie’s friend and the lost soul. And book 7 and 8 are transitional and according to my German friend it is when Goethe was working with Schiller. And apparently as noted elsewhere, Germans are not that impressed with Goethe.).

While this book had a plot it is one full of coincidences.

So the book is not a true Bildungsroman nor is it a book about Culture. It is about finding oneself (apprenticeship) — like Saul son of Kish who goes out looking for his father’s asses and ends up with a kingdom.

My summary “German finds Shakespeare”

Oh, thanks Kristel for explaining that book 6 was the memoir. This section really threw me in the beginning because it was read by the same narrator as the rest, and I couldn't get why Wilhelm suddenly seemed to have a completely different life :)

This part seemed to ramble, but in the end it did explain some of the back story to Natalie and the children, and gave some insight into the qualities of goodness and virtue. I think it also followed the novelistic convention where certain characters who have "fallen" or are in the way of others' happiness have to die. Dickens loved this plot/character device and it seems to me that Goethe did too (see also: Mignon's parents).

Prequestions:

1. Have you read any Goethe before?
I have read some poetry in translation but I am afraid for the most part I have not.
2. What translation and source are you reading?
I am reading the Thomas Carlyle translation which is evidently NOT the one to read. Reviewers have said that his translation added too much of himself into the language and not enough of Goethe. However, it is the book the library had...
3. What are your expectations as you start the book?
I am expecting it to be rather difficult to get through.

Gail wrote: "Prequestions:

1. Have you read any Goethe before?
I have read some poetry in translation but I am afraid for the most part I have not.
2. What translation and source are you reading?
I am readin..."
I found him fairly easy to read.

Thank you Kristel. I just started and yes, so far so easy. Plus, my edition has lots of illustrations in it.

Gail wrote: "Thank you Kristel. I just started and yes, so far so easy. Plus, my edition has lots of illustrations in it."

That’s fun. Who is the illustrator?

William Sharp is the illustrator.

I finished this one earlier this month, and I liked it but did feel it was a bit of a paler version of some of Goethe's other work (Like Sorrows of Young Werther).

so, Pre-questions:
1. I've read a decent amount of Goethe before: Sorrows of Young Werther, Elective Affinities, some of his essays and poetry (Sorrows of Young Werther was a study book in one of my undergrad classes so we read some auxiliary work too). I enjoy him overall, but not everything he wrote grips me to the same extent.
2. I listened to the same version of the audiobook that Kristel did. I thought it was a solid reading.
3. My expectations were that it was going to have the typical Goethe hallmarks : romanticism, conventional jobs being an unnatural barrier to a free life (in the arts), big feelings (I was right lol).

Actual Questions:

1.I think I covered some of the key stuff above. Young Werther also makes all of these points, but that one is more tragic (but I thought also more compelling)

2. I think its an exploration of his common themes, but with a special focus on the role of theatre in life and as a metaphor for the social world. He probably wrote it to explore his philosophy through those angles I would guess as Young Werther is more about the lens of philosophy and the theme of the individual soul, and Elective affinities was more the lens of combining the classic and romantic traditions and about love and marriage.

3. I got a strong sense of the theatre in the beginning of the book, which makes sense. The reader has to feel present there as well to understand the whole aura- down the the minutiae- that Wilhelm experiences in that moment that enraptures him toward that life.

4. I'm not entirely sure but it's funny because when you look this book up on Wikipedia it says there are 8 books in it, but they stop summarizing at 5. Are the last few parts that disregarded as canonical? lol

5. Goethe was a big figure in the Romantic movement, Weimar classicism movement, and the sturm und drang (storm and stress) literary movement. This last one put a big focus on the importance and predominance of feeling and individual subjectivity of the human experience (in opposition to the rationality and empiricism first emphasis of the previous Enlightenment). These philosophies and movements also sought to bridge- what they thought- was a disconnect between the questions of mind, body, feeling, thought, soul, etc. While I think these movements made for compelling literature and art, I think as a philosophy it ends up trying to fuse the apples and oranges of scientific phenomenon and social constructs in a way that doesn't really work.

But, these themes do appear throughout the book. Wilhelm's decision to to abandon the family business legacy for a more passionate career in the theatre (emphasis on feeling as truth), his pedestalized fantasies of his "Amazonian Queen" (dramatic depth of feeling and mythology as experience), etc.

As I said above, I experienced it as a quality book, but kind of a paler Young Werther. I can agree with its inclusion though given it's influential place in the above mentioned literary movements.

7.Oh I like this! Kristel's is great, I'll go with "Business heir pursues ...the Theatre!"

1. What are the key points in the novel?

It is largely a romance that investigates the role of love, class, chance, and will (reason) as a young man goes out into the world for the first time. It also specifically speaks to the role of the arts versus the role of commerce.

2. Why did Goethe write Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship?

I think it was his way of speaking to his usual philosophic themes while giving the public a fairly easy to read romance but I don't have any foundation in Goethe so I can't speak to his motivations. I did think his discourses on the role of different forms of education in young people and his discussions regarding Fate, Destiny and how it could be the role of man to not have chance be the ultimate decision maker in all things well wrapped up into the whole.

3. Goethe understood architecture and could write about it so that the reader could visualize it. What are some of the architectures mentioned in the book and what did they communicate to the reader. (I found 4 of them when looking up this book).

For more or less being a book about a "journey" there is very little landscape or even nature in the book but we are always made aware of the building Wilhelm is in. We are made to envision the glen in which the robbers attack, we do get a look at Theresa and Wilhelm under the oak tree and we do get a couple of turns around the garden but largely he is much more focused on architecture. We have one of the theaters described to us, we learn about the castle with the odd tower and we learn about the Hall of the Past. Here is an example of a description of a library:

" ...and if in other houses you would say the architect was of the school of the confectioner it here appeared as if even our confectioner and butler had taken lessons from the architect".

The castle is well described as having all its architectural beauty sacrificed to the interior.
On seeing where Natalie lived: "It was the purest, finest, stateliest piece of architecture he had ever seen. " This sentence gives us a clue about his relationship with Natalia.

4. What is the point of Book Six?
It almost struck me as an intermission in which we are allowed to wander away and think about religion or the spiritual, and how it forms the inner and outer aspects of a person. This was again a way of setting up thoughts regarding chance and the strength of mind that can overcome chance. Practically it also introduced us to Natalia.

5. Examine Goethe’s natural philosophy, the sociological aspects of his writings, and his influence on German theater.
Goethe spoke in this book to the role of the arts, the role of people interacting with other people in an honorable way and the role of balancing one's passions with a calm well lived life. His romantic ideals were extremely impactful in the world of theater.

6. How did you experience the book? Why do you think it was included in 1001 books you must read?
As my first real introduction to Goethe I found it interesting and yet largely clunky....it had many of the hallmarks of a dramatic piece rather than a novel. However, I can understand how this influenced novels going forward in that Wilhelm doesn't just travel and have experiences, he changes over the course of the book. In addition, the romance is well salted with philosophical discussions and the characters often play the parts of a metaphorical being.

7. Describe the book in 5 words or less.

"Cease to waste the years" ( a chopped up quote from the book)

1. What are the key points in the novel? The ideas around theatre and entertainment and Shakespeare.

4. What is the point of Book Six? I have no idea it seemed thrown in at random for no reason.

6. How did you experience the book? Why do you think it was included in 1001 books you must read? I struggled with this one I didn't really enjoy it and now I can't remember anything about it so at least it hasn't traumatised me like some books.

7. Describe the book in 5 words or less. Complicated, slow paced, doomed love

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I haven't read any Goethe, except some poetry (63 years ago!) I am listening to an Audible version, lightly edited as it is described, of Thomas Carlyle's translation. I am therefore expecting the language to be a bit archaic.
Well, it was hard going most of the time, and often opaque in meaning. Since I finished I learnt that Carlyle was not considered a good translator as he injected too much of himself into the work. The key points were that a young man searching for meaning in life, rejects his father's bourgeouis business to pursue a life of artistic merit by joining a theatre troupe. I read that Goethe wrote this at about the same time as The Sorrows of Young Werther, but did not publish it until 20 years later, with encouragement from his friend Schiller. So he amended Wilhelm's youthful naivety somewhat in the final version. I am interested in learning that Goethe was interested in architecture. I have visited the house where he lived in Frankfurt, and it was a very attractive place. But apart from the secret tower I do not remember anything much about descriptions of buildings. Even after Kristel's explanation, I am not sure about the significance of Book Six. Without any explanation, and with the same reader, suddenly the story is about someone completely different. Goethe, like Wilhelm, was fascinated by puppets as a child, was inspired by Shakespeare, who had only recently been translated into German, and was a theatre director at one point in his very busy life. He worked as a lawyer, as a court official, but also did research in biology and chemistry. Goethe is a giant in German literature and his characters, especially Faust, have been reused in many other works. "Wilhelm Meister's Theatrical Calling" (which was the early title he gave the work)>