21st Century Literature discussion

That's interesting, Peter. I guess the thing with Euphoria was that it was lively for about ten days and then just went flat. I was moderating both discussions and The Bone Clocks threads demanded about an hour of my time every day of the entire month whereas Euphoria has been a moderating breeze in comparison!

I really liked Euphoria. It was a well-written novel, not just "straightforward storytelling." But then I like really good landscape paintings, too. And I know there are those who consider it unimaginative and would prefer something "cutting edge" and "new" and "experimental." I don't understand this view that "straightforward storytelling" can not be literature, or anything but "commercial fiction." A Farewell to Arms was straightforward storytelling. Does that make it "merely commercial"? How about The Great Gatsby? The Age of Innocence? Pride and Prejudice? I sometimes get the sense that some people here think a book cannot be "good" unless it is very difficult to understand, or at least tells a heart-rending story of really unpleasant events like torture, prison camps, etc.

Casceil wrote: "I really liked Euphoria. It was a well-written novel, not just "straightforward storytelling." But then I like really good landscape paintings, too. And I know there are those who consider it un..."

I am with you Casceil. I like to read good "cutting edge" and "experimental" but there's a lot to be said for straightforward storytelling.

Completely agree with both of you. Often there's nothing more enjoyable than straightforward storytelling and, what's more, it's a very difficult art to master.

Just a reminder that a few of us are going to read All the Light We Cannot See in April. Anyone who missed out when it was discussed and wants to join in is hugely welcome. We'll use Terry's folder - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

Did you hear Diane Rehm's show on All the Light We Cannot See earlier this week?

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

No. I'm a bit nervous that it might give away too much. Should I be?

Violet wrote: "No. I'm a bit nervous that it might give away too much. Should I be?"

Yes, especially, it does if you want the tension of one of the threaded mysteries of the book. But, if you don't care about spoilers, it was a very good discussion with questions from listeners.

Thx, Kirsten. I have linked it on the ATLWCS thread. Will go back now and acknowledge you.

Thanks Lily. I'll wait until I've finished then. Only read 50 pages but loving it to bits so far.

Violet wrote: "Thanks Lily. I'll wait until I've finished then. Only read 50 pages but loving it to bits so far."

Violet -- glad to hear so. What I am looking for is the articulation of why those of us who like it, like it. This program today helped.

I think it's often extremely hard to tell which books will prompt the most interesting discussion. Depth over superficiality helps, of course, but conventional versus experimental is only one spectrum... For me, for instance, Jerusalem was experimental, but I found it very hard to discuss and got little from it.

Conventional storytelling on the other hand can result in very good discussion, as with The Goldfinch and Out Stealing Horses. The Bone Clocks resulted in a lot of discussion, but a lot of people felt it wasn't a very good book. Most people discussing Traveller of the Century thought it was outstanding, but it didn't generate a lot of discussion.

As with Casceil, I enjoyed Euphoria and thought there was a lot there to ponder and discuss, and little to make it count as somehow lesser literature.

It's fascinating what makes for a good discussion. I agree quality is only a facet and often not the most influential one, especially because we're deep in the subjective here. In retrospect the discussion on Euphoria turned out to be a good 'un. It's just maybe that some of us newer members got spoiled with the high vitality of the Bone Clock discussion. And like you said, Terry, most of us found fault with that novel so it's pretty difficult to predict what kind of discussion any novel will inspire.

Terry wrote: "...thought there was a lot there to ponder and discuss..."

Did we get those things out on the table to discuss, Terry? How to identify such things and bring them forward seems a challenge to me. For example, I would have enjoyed a conversation on the style of anthropology study of each of them or on the composition and eventual fate of the grid. But you probably have in mind even more interesting topics.

It is fascinating what makes a good discussion. As people have said, it's not necessarily a book people think is 'great literature'. I suspect that if this group read the Twilight books, we'd have a pretty interesting discussion on the social implications, cryptic religious messages, character analysis etc...

I think books like Bone Clocks can work well because a writer like David Mitchell focuses on every aspect of a book, i.e. the aesthetics of the writing as well as plot, character, and social and political commentary.It was also a choice that attracted a fairly large group of engaged readers, and we had a moderator who busted her butt keeping the discussion engaging. That it's a book perceived as a 'lessor' novel by a well-liked writer probably didn't hurt, either.

Lily, if you have more things you would have liked to see covered in a discussion, all I can say is put them out there and see if anyone else picks them up, even if they're semi-formed ideas. I know that when I moderate, I'm always happy to see other people bringing up interesting ideas or themes in a book. I'm no English teacher, I count on others to help bring out the levels of a book that I invariably miss.

Couldn't agree more, Whitney. A group read of Twilight would be a real live wire of a discussion. In fact I might nominate it next month!

Some of them, maybe, others not. I've not had as much time to participate recently as I'd like, and I personally find it more and more difficult to comment the longer it's been since I read a book (one reason I don't really nominate books I've already read, or participate in those discussions much).

I agree about the anthropology styles. I wonder if there was some interesting unscratched stuff about the place of women in society, professional life and marriage then as compared to now, and I wonder if we could have gone deeper on the observe/participate thing, for instance (although maybe some of this was picked up later, I may have missed some later posts).

Well, this made me just go back there and pick up some interesting additions I hadn't read, so maybe I was premature in some of that...

This group is 21st Century Literature, not 21st Century Authors or 21st Century Readers.

But, and for example:

Having read more than one work by David Mitchell and having a particular orientation to his philosophical grounding made a difference in my reading of The Bone Clocks. How could it not? Within each section is an exploration of individual influences, and the whole is a trail of them.

I read the discussion herein of How to be both before reading it. Interestingly, the discussion focused on individual reactions, in detail and in general. The book itself, as I see it, is all about this subject: how individual artists and individual viewers intersect in the work.

Euphoria (which I’ve not read) is grounded in anthropology and uses (from what I can see), multiple characters to explore subjectivity and objectivity and personal passions. Last I checked, this very concern is a hot topic in contemporary anthropology.

Meanwhile, obviously, this meta-discussion is brought back into my understanding of those books. Very cool.

So, what am I leading myself to say? How about, All hands on the elephants -- mostly the ones in the room we are sharing at the moment.

Lacewing wrote: "This group is 21st Century Literature, not 21st Century Authors or 21st Century Readers.

But, and for example:"

Sorry for the preachy, declaiming mode. Creative non-fiction would be more palatable. (I'm a lousy cook, too!) Anyway, I put some stuff together for myself and this how it came out.

Whitney wrote: "Lily, if you have more things you would have liked to see covered in a discussion, all I can say is put them out there and see if anyone else picks them up, even if they're semi-formed ideas...."

Often I am interested in just seeing what others do pick up on and run with, especially in areas where I haven't really done the thinking or the homework. I appreciate your idea, Whitney, of creating a format/culture open to speculative exploration, but it does sometimes really take being willing to stay open to what comes back, especially if it is very surprising or takes an unexpected twist. (Other times it can be fun and enriching -- to see that someone else has seen far more and is taking the exploration even deeper.)

Lily wrote: "Whitney wrote: "it does sometimes really take being willing to stay open to what comes back, especially if it takes a surprising or unexpected twist...."

Very true, but a valuable exercise for everyone to get over the "this isn't what I thought - it must be wrong!" knee jerk response. Speaking for myself, at least :-)

Whitney wrote: "..."this isn't what I thought - it must be wrong!" knee jerk response. ..."

LOL! The fun part is figuring out the antecedent of the
"it" -- one's own thoughts? The other person's?

Lacewing, I really missed you on the Euphoria discussion.

Missed Whitney too.

And a hug back to you, Violet. Note that Whitney and I both signed up for Station 11. Come join us!

Brilliant. I've got my copy of Station Eleven.

I started reading Station Eleven last night, and it looks really good.

I finished "Station Eleven" a couple of days ago. It was hard for me to keep from putting it down. Looking forward to the discussion!



On a side note, "Station Eleven" came back for the first 'Zombie Round' in the Tournament of Books competition yesterday and it won. So it will be in the final showdown on March 31st.

The judgement and commentary are here but you might want to avoid reading it of you want to come into the "Station Eleven" read 'blind'.

I just read this one with another group. Some people had a real nightmare time getting a copy. If people are checking it out from libraries, I recommend placing a hold right away. I really should have mentioned that a couple of weeks ago because it's taking some people a couple of months to get them. Or there's the $2.99 Kindle Edition. It's been on sale for a bit.

Hello, all. Unfortunately, Guy had to bow out of moderating Station Eleven due to some unforeseen issues. Would anyone else like to pick up the reigns? Looks like there are several people reading it, so I suspect it shouldn't be too tough a job to facilitate a discussion for this one as there will be lots of contributors, including at least two of the mods.

Whitney wrote: "Hello, all. Unfortunately, Guy had to bow out of moderating Station Eleven due to some unforeseen issues. Would anyone else like to pick up the reigns? Looks like there are several people reading i..."

I'm pretty excited about reading this book so would be up for moderating unless anyone else is super keen to do it. I was planning on starting it tonight or tomorrow anyways.

I'm happy to help Caroline out.

Caroline wrote: "I'm pretty excited about reading this book so would be up for moderating unless anyone else is super keen to do it. I was planning on starting it tonight or tomorrow anyways ..."

Great! I'll send you a PM with a rough guide to moderating. It's pretty open how you want to do it.

I am happy to help with moderating too if needed.

With regard to the Tournament of Books...All the Light We Cannot See is advancing to the final round tomorrow against Station Eleven.

I STRONGLY CAUTION YOU.... DO NOT read today's judge commentary of All the Light We Cannot See vs. An Untamed State as there are heaps of spoiler for the books!! I wish judges wouldn't do that!

Okay cool. Just let me know what I need to do and I'll do it!

And Violet and Jane from B.C., I'm happy to have your help, along with anyone else who wants to chime in during the discussion!

Only read first 100 pages of All the Light but for me it blows Station Eleven out of the water! So far anyway. Not that Station Eleven wasn't a good read too but the richness and imaginative vitality of detail in All the Light is so beautiful and the relationships so heartwarmingly life affirming. I'm not going to read the judges commentary though as I don't want the plot spoiled.

Lol.

Just read the first 100 pages of Station Eleven (literally, exactly 100) and for me it blows All the Light I Cannot See out of the water!

Well, okay, I exaggerate for the mirroring effect, but I am enjoying it more for sure.

Every reader is different.

Terry, I think we can pretty much take it as a given by now that if you love a book I won't and vice versa!

Actually I've just done a book compare with you and bizarrely we're in agreement on the vast majority of novels we've both read.

Two books enter, One book leaves!
Two books enter, One book leaves!

(I may have misquoted that.)

My take (for today) is that the two compliment each other. But the LOL's on me because it took more than one reading of each.

We are. Let's just never talk about Charlotte Gray or Heart of Darkness. :)

There are so many things about any novel that can resonate or fail to, and every novel is a package of those little things that's like no other. So whatever alignment of its stars made you dislike Euphoria (and, separately, Charlotte Gray), and love All the Light (and, separately, Heart of Darkness) might have elements crop up again in some other configuration, but it's pretty tough to generalise about someone's loves and hates, if they have nuanced, thoughtful taste.

Which, as someone who loves Infinite Jest, HHhH and Invisible Cities, you clearly do... :)

Stand by my loathing of Charlotte Gray! And there's a brilliant example of an author cramming as much research as possible into a text which would back up your argument about King's relative restraint. But i read heart of darkness so long ago that it's possible i wouldn't be so admiring nowadays.

Anyone got any thoughts on how the Station Eleven discussion should be structured? I noticed on The History of Love and All the Light discussions each thread is devoted to one character. Trouble with this is you can't read the posts for fear of spoilers. and you can't really post as you're reading either for fear someone has already said what you've said. I like reading comments & commenting as i read so isn't it better to structure the threads using chapters rather than characters?

Violet wrote: "Anyone got any thoughts on how the Station Eleven discussion should be structured? I noticed on The History of Love and All the Light discussions each thread is devoted to one character. Trouble wi..."

Violet, I'm with you on wanting to be able to read the discussion as I read the book without fear of spoilers so think it's worthwhile breaking up the discussion.

There are 9 sections so I was thinking about splitting the conversation up into three sections: 1-3, 4-6, and 7-9. I think each of those segments is around 100-120 pages. Otherwise we could do a thread per section but that might be overwhelming, especially since some sections are only about 30-40 pages.

That sounds good to me, Caroline - the three section option.

The only thing I'd add to that excellent reasoning is that for sections, theme is more important than equal length IMO. So if, for example, sections 1-4 took place in one location or centered on one character, and sections 5-6 shifted the focus, then that would be a better split even if they were unequal in length (I just used those numbers as random examples, I'm not far enough through to know if there are such shifts at any point). Splitting it at key points helps people who've read much further ahead to remember which part a given event happened in and should be commented on in, and helps them comment freely without fear of spoilers for those who are further behind.

Splitting it into sections could be tricky, because the story jumps around in time. However you divide it, I think people should be encouraged to mark potential spoilers. If, for example, you group sections 1-3, a reader discussing events in section three should perhaps use spoiler tags so as not to give things away to people still reading section 2. In one of my other groups we do it like this: "About chapter 3 (view spoiler)[ content of spoiler (hide spoiler)]. If anyone has questions about how to do it, they should click on the line above the right-hand corner of the comment box that says "some html is ok".

Has Gilead been finalized as the puck for April or is voting continuing?

Good points Terry and Casceil.

I haven't read the book yet so am not sure how to divide by theme just yet. I'll start off by adding threads for individual sections and then if people start racing ahead I can group later sections together.