The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Well, we're finally at the end!

How is Christal affected by the news of her parentage?

How are Olive and Harold finally brought together?

Did you have any predictions that didn’t come true?

What did you think about the book overall?

I will say this for it, by the time Olive was grown up, I did want to know what happened next so I think I would have finished it anyway. But I did skim an awful lot - the long-windedness, the sentimentality, the purple prose, the digressions into the author's opinions were all just a bit much for me, though I admit I'm not a great fan of the Victorian style in the first place.
It was the secret of Christal's parentage, wondering when and how it would come to light and what would be the outcome that kept me going, though. I didn't really care about Olive and couldn't imagine what she saw in the dreadful Harold.

Christal ending up in a nunnery was a surprise. With her personality I can't see that lasting, even though she has apparently changed.
I'm glad Lyle married someone suitable.
Would the two have finally gotten together if Harold's mother didn't get involved?

I was sure that Christal would throw herself under a train or off a bridge (well, one of those was right!) Then I figured she would die of disease. I guess buried in a convent matches the author's view of how people should atone for their sins? When Christal gets irate, there is mention of her "southern" heritage - ah the temperamental Mediterranean/gypsy/dark person!

Olive was so annoying with Lyle, not realizing she was making him miserable and continuing to see him as a child. I'm sure he would have made a good husband. I never saw any attractive qualities in Harold.

The last part where Harold is to go to America and work and everyone is fine with it (but of course Olive will sacrifice herself to stay and take care of her next mother figure), then he inherits from Aunt Flora, was way too neat.

At least both Lyle and Harold told Olive she was beautiful, though of course she doesn't believe it. And it's as if her handicap is so awful, nobody ever mentions it outright. It never stopped her from doing all kinds of work around the house, walking long distances, etc.

It seems to me Olive is still of child-bearing age, but nothing is said about that. The child Ailie is banished to school when she doesn't fit the plot, then brought back to be a devoted child (but she would be getting older by now - the chronology doesn't seem consistent.)

I gave this book 2 stars. The beginning was fairly interesting but the author arranged the plot very clumsily, and I detested the moralizing and condescending views of women.

Whew! We all made it—congratulations to everyone.

I too thought Christal would die: she had never developed any endurance skills (which of course she should have, if Craik knew anything about psychology, considering that she was living with her mother when her mother was too ill to care for her). But I guess Olive would have felt too much guilt if Christal had “destroyed herself.” I was amazed she made it to France and managed to teach for all those months—surely there was a pond near home she could have flung herself into. But that would have denied Harold his opportunity for heroism.

I was a little surprised that Mrs. Gwynne needed to intervene to get Harold and Olive together; my plan was that Aunt Flora would leave the house to them both on condition that they marry.

What most struck me about the novel was the extent to which inequality of the sexes turns both into perpetual children. Women supposed to seek protection, to stay home, to be gentle and innocent; men turned into spoiled brats expecting to be waited on and catered to all their lives. Of the two, I think the men had it worse.

Yeah, I gave the book 2.5 stars, rounded up to 3.

It's been a while that I finished the book in a quick-and-skimming read, and I did not feel like returning to it: it's not really worth it. (2 stars, and that is merciful)

There is a detail, though, that I remember: it's where Olive calls Christal 'sister' and Christal hates it. Olive says it again and again, nonetheless ... sooo obnoxious. I felt like boxing Olive's ears. It reminded me how insufferable 'good' people can be.

One of my guesses was that Christal would be dying of some illness or injury (like from being hit by a train) and Olive would nurse her, which would lead to Christal's conversion to faith and calling Olive sister. I'm glad that didn't happen at least. I wonder if the author thought Catholicism was somehow weirder/lesser than the "true faith".

The question of Harold's faith and how it changed is very mushy. After being away for a while, he says he can now pray, but what changed. He always said he believed in God. He didn't exhibit many Christian virtues, like compassion, humility, service to others. He seemed to resent his duties of visiting the sick and dying.

Abigail wrote: "Whew! We all made it……..."

Yes I made it….just.

As regards these chapters, it seemed to me that the author had written down a list of ideas on how to make the end interesting….. and then finally decided to use all of them.

She threw the kitchen sink at it hoping that everyone reading would like something about the ending.
So many things happened, including………..
* threats of death and violence and a fight (for those who like violent scenes)
*locking a disturbed youngster in an upstairs room, who then makes an incredible escape to the Continent (for those who like unbelievable, teen dramas)
*an opportunistic but nevertheless dramatic rescue of a suicidal girl from almost certain drowning. (for those who like sensational melodrama)
*a young girl ashamed of her parentage hides herself from the world in a convent (for those who like to read about moral dilemmas)
* a disastrous fire requires the heroic male protagonist to rescue the woman he loves (for those who love romantic, action adventures)
*blood gushing from a mouth (for horror fans)
*a burst artery in the lung occurs due to mental anxiety (must look that one up)(for those who like medical dramas)
*both lovers find themselves anxiously hoping for a recovery by each other’s bedsides (for those who like suspense)
*instead of having to live thousands of miles apart for years, a whole heap of cash lands at the lovers’ door via an unexpected inheritance.(for those who like plausible, fortuitous, ‘happy ever after’ endings)

I can’t understand how the author let Harold get away with deceiving the church for years and years without some sort of gesture of apology or an effort to make reparations. He may be a weak shell of his former self at the end (the author writes that he still remains haughty and proud) but he is also living the life of a Lord with a loving servant wife and mother to attend to his every need.

The ending I was hoping for was that Christal might have grabbed Harold as she jumped off that bridge and pulled him down to the murky depths never to be seen again.

At least Olive’s love could have remained pure in mind without the coarse reality of actual daily life at the feet of Harold the husband.

Your comment is the best, Trev!

Trev wrote: "Abigail wrote: "Whew! We all made it……..."

Yes I made it….just.

As regards these chapters, it seemed to me that the author had written down a list of ideas on how to make the end interesting….. a..."

I love this summary!
I had forgotten about the annoying trope of Hero Rescues Heroine from Peril (fire/storm/war/assault) quickly followed by Heroine Nurses Hero Back to Life. The fire happened just the night after Harold got home, that's not suspicious at all (ooh, Harold set it so he could rescue Olive - nah, he wouldn't have had the nerve!)

I have enjoyed being able to share snarky humor with this group about the book. Reminds me of college when we would watch Double Creature Feature on Saturday night TV - lesser horror movies where it was obvious the monster was a person in a suit, the heroine went into dangerous spots alone, the dialogue was fake, etc. We watched these in order to make fun of them.

This book does make me more admiring of novels by Dickens, Trollope, George Eliot, Elizabeth Gaskell, and others. By modern standards the plot is sometimes creaky but compared to this, they look like geniuses.

Robin P wrote: "...I wonder if the author thought Catholicism was somehow weirder/lesser than the "true faith"...."

Oh yes, there was massive prejudice against Catholicism in Britain in the C19th. When this book was published, the Catholic Emancipation Act, allowing Catholics to hold public office, was only 21 years old; it was in that year, 1850, that the Pope appointed the first Catholic bishops to England since the Reformation and there was huge public outcry against it - outraged articles in the newspapers, demonstrations in the streets, the lot.

That the abominable Christal should turn out to be one could well be another example of her nasty 'foreign' nature, as well, of course, being necessary if she was to be disposed of in a convent.

Jenny wrote: "Robin P wrote: "...I wonder if the author thought Catholicism was somehow weirder/lesser than the "true faith"...."

Oh yes, there was massive prejudice against Catholicism in Britain in the C19th...."

Right, it's part of her exoticism, good point.

Robin P wrote: "Jenny wrote: "Robin P wrote: "...I wonder if the author thought Catholicism was somehow weirder/lesser than the "true faith"...."

Oh yes, there was massive prejudice against Catholicism in Britain

That the abominable Christal should turn out to be one could well be another example of her nasty 'foreign' nature, as well, of course, being necessary if she was to be disposed of in a convent...."

Even weirder that the last couple of paragraphs has Harold turning his back on the church to become a fully fledged Scotsman, donning the family tartan and proudly wearing his ‘plaid.’ It certainly seemed to send a shiver up Olive’s spine!

Trev wrote: " It certainly seemed to send a shiver up Olive’s spine!"

ah, well, you know, those knees .... ;-))

I’m glad we read this book because I’ve had so much fun with all the comments. The book absolutely called for some snark. Everyone has done such a great job of summarizing the faults of the story that I only have one thing to add: Harold’s new habit of referring to our heroine as “Little Olive” made me grind my teeth every time I read it. So condescending, especially since she as been a much stronger person than he has throughout. Oh, well. We’re done. Has anyone read anything else by Dinah Craik? I know she was popular in her time, so we’re her other novels such drivel?

I read John Halifax, Gentleman and think it's a much better book. She also wrote the children's classic The Little Lame Prince.
My edition of Olive also contained the story The Half-Caste. I wasn't impressed.

What slightly puzzles me is that surely there must be something to be said for it? Several Goodreads members have given it 5 star reviews and its average rating is 3.56 - have we all been missing something? Is there nobody at all to speak up for it?

I've also greatly appreciated the discussions here. Thanks for participating, and thanks for the humor!

Thanks for leading the discussion, Lori.

Jenny, I think some readers give just about every book they read five stars.

Jenny wrote: "What slightly puzzles me is that surely there must be something to be said for it? Several Goodreads members have given it 5 star reviews and its average rating is 3.56 - have we all been missing s..."

An average of 3.56 IS rather low in the GR community - toward the thin lower end of the steep bell curve between, say, 3.50 and 4.50, in which interval you find, I guess, 95 % of titles. Community rating is not the subtle instrument that its inventors imagined. With large numbers, it will always center around the average which is the arithmetical 3 plus 1 for courtesy. - I ignore ratings in the choice of my reading.

sabagrey wrote: "Jenny wrote: "What slightly puzzles me is that surely there must be something to be said for it? Several Goodreads members have given it 5 star reviews and its average rating is 3.56 - have we all ..."

Yes I agree about ratings and often don’t bother giving scores unless something or someone encourages me to do so.

For example, in a recent read of Mary Barton I upgraded my rating from 4 to 5. This was because, even though I knew the the book well, when I read it again I was moved and stimulated afresh. This to me is a sign of a great book.

If you compare the rating of ‘Olive’ at 3.56 with, for example, Mary Cholmondeley’s Diana Tempest at 3.78, the difference of only 0.22 is frankly ridiculous. Mary Cholmondeley is obviously a more accomplished writer, technically better and develops plot and character to a much more sophisticated level than Dinah Craik. Nevertheless, there may be some that still prefer the style of Craik’s novels to Mary Cholmondeley’s.

Trev wrote: "If you compare the rating of ‘Olive’ at 3.56 with, for example, Mary Cholmondeley’s Diana Tempest at 3.78, the difference of only 0.22 is frankly ridiculous. ."

Ridiculous indeed. Diana Tempest gets 5 stars from me (as does Mary Barton, btw ;-)), Olive no more than 2.

On a purely speculative note I wonder whether there are statisticians/mathematicians out there who have studied the problem of voting/ranking systems outgrowing their meaningfulness. I suspect it has to do with the number of voters and the number of items, but I don't know how, or what would be the limits. (nor how to impose them: GR does the opposite, by pushing the user almost aggressively toward rating. The intention is clearly not a reliable quality control system, but merely to give the user an illusion of active participation)

Too many voters level out the distinctions, but I think the number of items is also relevant, because there are no absolute criteria, so that we (naturally, as humans) rank by comparison with other books. And of course, everyone's bookshelf is different. Proximity will also play a role: if I have just finished a junk book, I will be more disposed to give an extra star to one that is only a little better.

But that has nothing to do with our Olive, whom I will gladly leave to her Harold, two cardboard characters painted in sugary Victorian colours who, as such, deserve each other.

GR ratings aren't very meaningful - if you go by the GR descriptions, they are inflationary, like 2 stars is ok - but to me 2 stars is quite bad. That's what I gave this book. I've never gone by their descriptions myself. Some readers give almost every book 5 stars, while I only have a few in a year. Plus a 4-star book for a genre item might not be equivalent to a 4-star book for a literary fiction item. And we gave Craik a lot of benefit of the doubt because of her era. If this book were written today, with just a few updates of language or even attitude toward women, we would probably have all thrown it away partway through.